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High voltage question. Electrician Needed.

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FireDemon

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
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Well, maybe not high high voltage, but high enough.

The ordeal is that I am designing a custom vandal system for my PC using flash camera capacitors.

I have one rigged up amounting to 330V.

I have another rubycon laying around and would really like to hook it in parallel for 660VDC. The problem is however, the wire I am using is the common power supply wire rated at a maximum of 300V, so I am already exceeding it by 30V.

To complicate things even more, is the discharge circuit that is controlled by a 250VAC toggle switch (to be used with a 10 watt 2.2K wirewound resistor). I have tested this switch on a discharge and it seems to perform fine.

I know that this wire cannot NORMALLY withstand over 300V, the reason I am asking is that it will not be continuous current. Only a very brief surge (less than 1 second) whenever the circut is closed or when the capacitors are being discharged.

I don't think however that this wire will be able to withstand it, and am just looking for confirmation. If not, anyone know of some good wire that can withstand the surge? Preferably keep it under 20 gauge, which I don't think is possible for that boltage. But It's always nice to hope.
 
Ok , let me get this straight.You are building a 'shocker' circuit ?

If this is the case , I'd advise you to reconsider carefully.

You obviously have a modicum of electronics knowledge , yet you are asking about simple concepts , and that , at least to me, suggests dangerously incomplete knowledge.

Shocker circuits are dangerous and unpredictable.You can injure and even kill with it , not to mention the potential for disaster inside your machine.

I'm sorry but I dont think you'll find help here.

Use a car alarm instead.
 
OK dude, if your gonna be a smart ass, why even bother replying at all? No I do not have "advanced" knwoledge of electronics, but it does not take a rocket scientist to know that if you touch both the lead and ground of a capacitor, you will get shocked. And given the gravity of your post, it seems you are not very knowledgeable either. Since all you did was reply just to mock my ignorance and didn't even give the slightest answer. And just for the record, the reason I am asking this "simple" question, is that the wires coming from the board on a flash camera, is extremely small. I'm guessing around 26awg or maybe even smaller, which leads me to believe that the 20 gauage wire I have can handle that quick ms surge. Come to think of it, I'd think that it was the insulation more prone to melting off if the V rating was exceeded than the wire actually severing.

Don't worry though, I am sure there are many people here who know what they are doing.


(BTW, this is not a capacitor bank we're talking about. Unless I were to touch the lead with one arm and ground myself with the other, It's pretty rare that anything more than a small skin burn will occur)

Oh and also, this circuit is only connected to my bulgin power button, which I have electrically isolated from the rest of the case. I am not as stupid as you think my friend. Your reponse was very offensively worded, and in the future whether you are just trying to prove to the new forum member how big of a veteran you are, or whether you are really trying to help, you might want to think about this.
 
What good will this do? Someone gets zapped by this, their next move will likely be smash it into little pieces. Great, now your machine's not stolen, just destroyed.
 
With that attitude you're not going to get far here. And for the record, he's 100% right, caps store voltage and dump it in one large burst. That being the case the amperage could be enough to kill someone even if the supply to the caps doesn't have the ass to do the job on straight power. And you can get a ground by standing on the floor barefoot or with wet feet or leaning up against a metal object or other inumerable ways and if the voltage travels up your arm and down through your torso it passes through the chest, yes enough amperage and that can be fatal.

It takes less (FAR less) than one amp to kill an adult human. If you want a safe shocking circuit might I suggest getting a dog fence charger and using that? It won't kill you and packs enough of a wallop that it'll do the job well enough. Just don't hook it to the case itself or you'll run into serious troubles.
 
Isn't it amazing how fast the reply time is accellerated when it turns into a flame war?

madmat said:
With that attitude you're not going to get far here.
Click to expand...

Just for the record, regardless of how new to a place I am if someone bucks at me I WILL state my case right back at them.


It appears we have all gotten off on the wrong foot here. The problem was that it was assumed just by me asking about a simple voltage spike, that I did not know a hammer from a toilet seat. But don't worry, I've recieved alot of critique on this mod so far, mainly from people who don't even give it thought twice.

Let me enlighten everyone so maybe we can get onto a more peaceful path.

unhappy_mage said:
What good will this do? Someone gets zapped by this, their next move will likely be smash it into little pieces. Great, now your machine's not stolen, just destroyed.
Click to expand...

Yes this mod will be functional, but it is more for fun and show than it is anything.

madmat said:
It takes less (FAR less) than one amp to kill an adult human. If you want a safe shocking circuit might I suggest getting a dog fence charger and using that?
Click to expand...

This I know. This is the type of thing I was talking about that leads to a flame war. Someone who assumes the other persaon is ignorant. Except you did not type it up in an insulting and belittling way, that is the difference. I know that it only takes 100mA to stop a human heart (in certain cases 50mA), and I known that the resistance of human skin is 100 ohms.

madmat said:
And for the record, he's 100% right, caps store voltage and dump it in one large burst.
Click to expand...

I know this also. I am hoping you did not think I was under the impression of seeing a capacitor as a battery?


The fact that we are on this debate is very sad, as I originally came here simply to ask if a piece of wire coduld handle a voltage spike, and was immdiately stamped noob. So, can we please answer that simple question and just get this post over with?
 
I can answer your question, however I am not going to. Not for your own good, for the unsuspecting person that gets shocked by it and dies because you wanted to have fun.

As the above poster said , shocking circuts are a bad idea period.. Electricity is NOT a toy to be played with, especially what you are planning on doing.

If you want to discuss something that has a very large potential to cause bodily harm, or possibly even death under the right circumstances, don't look for help here...
 
FireDemon said:
Yes this mod will be functional, but it more for fun and show than it is anything. I know that it only takes 100mA to stop a human heart (in certain cases 50mA), and I known that the resistance of human skin is 100 ohms.
Click to expand...
Fun and games and death?
FireDemon said:
The fact that we are on this debate is very sad, as I originally came here simply to ask if a piece of wire coduld handle a voltage spike, and was immdiately stamped noob. So, can we please answer that simple question and just get this post over with?
Click to expand...
No, you asked if a piece of wire could handle a certain voltage so you could shock people with it, and people immediately stamped this idea dangerous. Rig up some blinking lights and a siren and a police dialer with a synthesized voice informing the police it's being stolen if you must, but don't go wiring potentially lethal devices into your computer. Just as a far-out-there idea, what do you think would happen if you managed to kill someone with this?
 
FireDemon, please do not build this circuit. It takes more than a capacitor, switch, and wire to build a "safe" shocker circuit.
 
OK, since this has now turned into a humanitarian summit, here is a better idea.

If you are so knowledgable as you claim, why do you not help me to find some decent articles or give me a few tips on how to put a bit of resistance on the current so this thing does not have the potential to kill. I am not as ignorant as you may think, I just do not have the complete knowledge some of the other people here do.
 
unhappy_mage said:
Just as a far-out-there idea, what do you think would happen if you managed to kill someone with this?
Click to expand...

Electrocution carries more risks than just death. I'm an electrician, and I've seen firsthand the effects of electric shock (fortunately, I've never received a dangerous shock myself).

One incident that comes to mind happened while I was working with a few other maintenance guys on the 4160V part of a medium voltage switchgear. We were doing tests with a highpot, which is a test instrument that uses high voltage to measure insulation resistance. While using one, nobody is allowed to be in the switchgear. Anyway, during a test, the highpot got switched on before everybody got clear of the buswork. One of the guys received a nasty jolt that gave him a heart arrhythmia. He came through OK, but was under medical observation for 12 hours. That shock came from a test instrument that has current limiters to prevent a fatal shock, but obviously they are not perfect.
 
FireDemon said:
OK, since this has now turned into a humanitarian summit, here is a better idea.

If you are so knowledgable as you claim, why do you not help me to find some decent articles or give me a few tips on how to put a bit of resistance on the current so this thing does not have the potential to kill. I am not as ignorant as you may think, I just do not have the complete knowledge some of the other people here do.
Click to expand...

Sorry, it's much easier for us to attack the ignorance of the principle behind performing such a project than to offer advice on how to make it work. If you want to prank your friends, there are easier ways to do it without making ghetto circuits and risking damage to your computer.

I'm curious to see how you're physically arranging the system, though. Are you wrapping wires around the case or using the case itself to deliver the shock?
 
Hmmm, something to keep in mind is that was in excess of 4000V this will be childplay compared to that.

Other things to worry about are heart (I can never spell that stupid word starts with an F) and believe me, I've gotten hit with both AC and DC in high amounts (One time I actually did ground myself with one arm and lead myself with the other) and went paranoid for the next few hours since there are several aftermath scenarios where symptoms can be delayed from electircal shock.

To be quite honest, Something I have sunk 5 - $7,000 into with so much time and effort, suddenly the significance of someones life who I have no relation to trying to tamper with it seems miniscule (This circuit will not be easy to turn on so I don't think there is much risk of a domestic resident being zapped). Many will take this offensively and cold hearted, but so be it.


However, if anyone will be willing to help advise me or point me in the direction of some artciles showing to build current resistance, I would be more than willing to take this approach.
 
-=Antimatter=- said:
Sorry, it's much easier for us to attack the ignorance of the principle behind performing such a project than to offer advice on how to make it work. If you want to prank your friends, there are easier ways to do it without making ghetto circuits and risking damage to your computer.

I'm curious to see how you're physically arranging the system, though. Are you wrapping wires around the case or using the case itself to deliver the shock?
Click to expand...

It humors me how stubborn you are. I take it you did not read the entire post, or you would have saw where I typed I was hooking this circit up to my chrome bulgin switch.

And again with the asumptionous flame bait. Nowhere did I type that I wanted to "Prank shock" my friends. Here is another way to look at it, unless you yourself are involved, do not attempt to make an accurate conclusion on what it is being designed for. (Although I think you only wanted to flame and had no intention of making one).

For the record, I am housing the whole thing inside of a project box with some heavy voltage wire and cable sleeving as to not create a "ghetto citcuit".
 
FireDemon said:
To be quite honest, Something I have sunk 5 - $7,000 into with so much time and effort, suddenly the significance of someones life who I have no relation to trying to tamper with it seems miniscule (This circuit will not be easy to turn on so I don't think there is much risk of a domestic resident being zapped). Many will take this offensively and cold hearted, but so be it.
Click to expand...

This right there I guarntee will prevent anyone from helping you in any way.
 
Why not just buy a commercialized shocker that they sell for many toys and just integrate this?

I would stay away from a highly lethal potential home made device. I mean as much as I want to see criminals scream and croak, it's not always the best turn of events for the owner :(
 
LOL! Well, I anticipated that sort of reponse. Pin a rose on me, and say a hail mary this sunday at church while your at it.

And Ockie, I completely agree with you. Sad but true. Same concept as the father who goes out and kills the child molestor.

Thanks guys, but I'll just delete this thread in a few (That is if HardOCP allows the deletion of threads by the author).
 
FireDemon said:
And Ockie, I completely agree with you. Sad but true. Same concept as the father who goes out and kills the child molestor.
Click to expand...

2 Completly different concepts.

You want to create a device that has the potential to kill an innocent person that touches your computer. That is using deadly force to protect your property.

A father going out and killing a child molestor that did something to his child is a completly different arguement.
 
I never said the gravity of both situations was the same, just the general cause and effect.

Looking for delete button...
 
FireDemon said:
It humors me how stubborn you are. I take it you did not read the entire post, or you would have saw where I typed I was hooking this circuit up to my chrome bulgin switch.

And again with the asumptionous flame bait. Nowhere did I type that I wanted to "Prank shock" my friends. Here is another way to look at it, unless you yourself are involved, do not attempt to make an accurate conclusion on what it is being designed for. (Although I think you only wanted to flame and had no intention of making one).

For the record, I am housing the whole thing inside of a project box with some heavy voltage wire and cable sleeving as to not create a "ghetto circuit".
Click to expand...

There are far better ways to keep vandals and thieves away from your computer than a shock delivery system. Those thousands of dollars you claim to have spent could have bought you a new set of doors and locks for your entire house or apartment, and your computer would be much more secure.

I'm a senior-year electrical engineering undergrad, and I felt that my advice to not build this dangerous device would have some weight on your opinion. I would have given advice on the circuit itself had you not displayed such carelessness for the safety of others around your computer. I won't apologize for being stubborn enough to refuse to give you advice that might endanger yourself or others, but I will apologize for flaming your thread.
 
OK then, how about being resourceful and as others have stated, help me to limit the current delivery.

Is this possible?
 
Did you not see the effects on the PC every time the spark jumps from the PC to the person coming into contact with it?

Freezing, other issues. I know first hand about that, I was building a new PC and I got a static discharge from me to the completed PC (safely in it's housing BTW) and it BSOD'ed and rebooted. Now, where do you think the electricity from your zapper will leave the victim of the zapper? If you guessed into the casing of your PC you win! You've got all this money tied up in your PC so why jeopardize it just to tingle someone for shits and giggles?
 
FireDemon said:
Just read, and can't figure out how this applies to me.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was being facetious. If you google "stun gun circuit" you will find lots of options for making stun guns with common ICs and components for a wide range of voltages that are relatively safe. One of the key components is having the voltage at a high frequency so that it does not penetrate the body and hurt internal organs. You need a high voltage but a low current to cause pain but not cause damage.

For example: http://www.electro-tech-online.com/electronic-projects/38-stun-gun.html
 
-=Antimatter=- said:
Sorry, I was being facetious. If you google "stun gun circuit" you will find lots of options for making stun guns with common ICs and components for a wide range of voltages that are relatively safe. One of the key components is having the voltage at a high frequency so that it does not penetrate the body and hurt internal organs. You need a high voltage but a low current to cause pain but not cause damage.

For example: http://www.electro-tech-online.com/electronic-projects/38-stun-gun.html
Click to expand...

Just like handing a 2 year old a loaded gun...
 
in before deleted :D seriously though is this really to protect your pc? seems like there are better and easier ways of doing this.
 
Spazilton said:
Just like handing a 2 year old a loaded gun...
Click to expand...

Dude, you seriously need to stfu. First you use the excuse that the capacitors have a lethal amperage ability (Which they certainly do) to start your humanitarian rantings and claim It's noble.

Next, when I look for some research on how to limit the current so all that remains is a suprising jolt, you throw random jabs.

You are just posting to flame, so go bother someone else.



Thank you Antimatter for helping me with this issue. I will certainly look into the current limiting circuit.
 
Come to think of it mat, you are absolutely right.

And I had thought of this issue before. Thew way I set the button up was the center insert was the lead, and the outer ring was the ground. But still if someone touches the lead, this would not stop the electricity from being atracted to the front panel since it is a ground (Every time I considered this actually, I thought of those cigarette lighters with an electric starter the way the sparks jumps down into the jets). It does have a pretty decent amount of spraypaint it, but still, always the possibility with that much voltage.

I still have to search further into this issue and if it prooves to be a problem, I will have no choice but to discontinue the mod. It will only be going to the ground of the components, but this still will pose a threat. LED's are a good example, most can only withstand 5v reverse voltage.
 
Hmmm. Now that I think about it, I might just have to stop this madness. Just think of what would happen if someone was resting their hand on the case for example and tried turning the PC on :S.

Argh. Guess this mod would only work with an acrylic case. Oh well. I was really going to make the current limiter, but even if it does not kill the person, it WILL kill the PC.

:(
 
Mods please don't delete this thread as there are a few other forums I would love to share this thread with. This is priceless.:rolleyes:
 
Hey....just for the record , I meant no offense in my first post , it was more of a "concerned point of view" from someone who's been shocked by many , many capacitors.

Here's the thing that makes these types of circuits dangerous :

While you can control the voltage and charge of the circuit , you can never control the impedance it discharges through , thus the 'actual delivered current' can vary quite widely.

Please reconsider.

:D
 
LOWBOY said:
Mods please don't delete this thread as there are a few other forums I would love to share this thread with. This is priceless.
Click to expand...

Actually, your action could be considered equally as silly. Heres why:

It is only human nature to oppose any views they think contradict their opinions towards mortality and morality, so even though I might have defended my views on the subject, I cannot blame them for starting a debate. However, even after the dust had settled and the situation turned into a somewhat positive conversation and I was asking on how to rig up a current limiting circuit (Supposedly removing the cause for the negativity), this post continued to attract flame bait, and you have just contributed. Sadly, this flaming stemmed from the help and advice of others with a more serious approach.

I really hate posting on HardOCP. I mean, great website and in depth articles, but the forums are littered with people who think they can stroll around acting like they own them just because they are the owner of the latest geforce.

My first ever post here was a simple question about a RAID array. Was it answered? Only after about the first 5 - 6 replies of people posting flame bait about a typo I had made.

My second ever thread here was about the gaming functionality of a Logitech MX Revolution. Was it ever answered? Hell no. Just about 10 replies of people starting a flame war about the differences between optical and laser (A few actually thought it was the same thing).

Somehow I think that if I had a bit more notorious reputation here, my thread would not have been looked at so morbidly. Sadly, most people take ignorance and limited knowhow as an invitation for mockery, even if they do not know much more themselves.

I was called childish, evil, immature, and in a way it was right. It really depends on how you look at the situation. It all stems down to the fact that I look as childish to you as much as you come across as an asshole to me. That's opinion and morals for you.

But ironically, here you are running around like a gossiping school girl claiming to be reposting this in other forums. Go ahead if you like. Theres only one forum really where I frequent and have my worklog posted up. And in a few, I might even be able to have it deleted. But to the right crowd, you will appear equally as "priceless".


BrainEater: I apologize for being such an ass towards you and taking your post so seriously. I have just been replying from work all this time and am having a very shitty day.

AntiMatter: Thank you for trying to help me out on the subject.

To the rest of you who fall into the RAID and Logitech crowd, I don't have to say anything. You should be able to read in between the lines.
 
This is closed because (1) it could cause possible harm to some unsuspecting party, (2) the flames and insults are rampant and (3) this has absolutely nothing to do with PC power supplies. Get a grip:rolleyes:
 
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