• Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
    Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.

High density SAS enclosure

C

ChemicalSmile

n00b
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
37
Hello all,

I posted awhile back about an SAS project I was working on. I'm still interested but I'm not as knowledgeable about the technology as I'd like.

To simplify, I'd like to get to work on a high density SAS based NAS device. I've designed SATA based versions, but I'd like to try this out. What I'd like to know is what type of equipment would I need to interface with say, 44 SAS drives in a single controller? Is there an expander out there that has enough ports to break out to back planes supporting this many drives? Hardware RAID is the route I'm going as well so recommendations on controllers would be welcome. During my SATA based builds, connections to the back planes were SATA to SATA. I've noticed that SAS breakout cables can be purchase that terminate in 4 SATA connectors. Does the impact SAS performance or is it normal practice. Lastly, I still find SAS back planes hard to come by. I'd prefer to stay away from the major players in the market but If that's all that's available I'll work with it.
Obviously I'm new to this and would love some advice from seasoned designers. Hardware suggestions are welcome as are potential pit falls to the idea.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long winded post.

ChemicalSmile
 
This is what i am setting up, 45 bay dual sided JBOD, has an expander on each side. (they also make a chassis that has room for the mobo to be included but holds less drives)

http://www.supermicro.com/products/chassis/4U/847/SC847E26-RJBOD1.cfm

Will connect to my head unit (server) via a LSI HBA:

http://www.lsi.com/channel/products/storagecomponents/Pages/LSISAS9205-8e.aspx

Stuff like this is LOUD tho, as it is meant for a data center. if this is for home you could consider connecting several desktop norco enclosures:

http://www.norcotek.com/category.php?id=8
 
stevebaynet said:
This is what i am setting up, 45 bay dual sided JBOD, has an expander on each side. (they also make a chassis that has room for the mobo to be included but holds less drives)

http://www.supermicro.com/products/chassis/4U/847/SC847E26-RJBOD1.cfm

Will connect to my head unit (server) via a LSI HBA:

http://www.lsi.com/channel/products/storagecomponents/Pages/LSISAS9205-8e.aspx

Stuff like this is LOUD tho, as it is meant for a data center. if this is for home you could consider connecting several desktop norco enclosures:

http://www.norcotek.com/category.php?id=8
Click to expand...

Thanks for the helpful response. My design will be using a custom chassis and the server will be integrated. I know it sounds ridiculous but being a SATA guy and looking at the SAS expander out there, I'm still not quite understanding how I can get enough outputs from the expander to do 44 drives. I'm a noob to this and I appreciate your patience. Would I be looking at multiple expanders and two raid sets in the enclosure? I'd like to avoid this and have them pooled together in their entirety.

Again, Thank you.

Chemical smile


ChemicalSmile
 
I also notice breakout cables that go from a single SAS connector to 4xSata connectors. I've seen many SAS back planes That accept this sata connection, Will drives installed in these back planes have the potential to hit their peak performacnce or does the sata connector on the back plane side limit throughput?

ChemicalSmile
 
One last noob question before I head to bed. Can SAS expanders be linked up to increase their port count? I've seen expanders that offer up to 32 ports but I'd like more while keeping all of the drives pooled together. Is there other hardware that I can add to help this situation?
Again, the server in this machine is to be integrated. Any info, as detailed as possible, would be greatly appreciated.

I'm off to bed and I'll check back in the morning.

Thanks all.

ChecmicalSmile
 
The JBOD link i showed for that dual sided box has two expanders. one for the front, one for the back. in my case, each expander is independently connected to an HBA in the server. (so if one expander dies for whatever reason, the other one is still connected + disks are mirrored across both)

To answer your question about expander port count, yes you can cascade multiple expander backplanes (connect them together).

Just keep in mind that each mini-sas cable supports 4 lanes of traffic.

So you could not use an expander and just get a backplane that has one mini-SAS port for every 4 drives. (or there is a port for each drive and you use the mini-SAS cable that breaks out into the 4 ind connectors, im fuzzy on that)
 
The backplanes which accept SATA type cables (can't recall the designation) should work as long as the mating surface for the drive is an SFF-8482. SFF-8482 looks almost identical to a sata backplane connector, except sata-only sockets have a notch to prevent the installation of SAS drives.
 
Thank you all so much. Just to recap, I can install two SAS expanders with say a 24 port count and cable them to my sas backplanes using either a single mini-sas per 4 drives if the backplane supports it or fan out to 4 sata connectors if required by the backplane. If this is done correctly, I should technically have access to a potential of 48 drives and raid them out as a single array? I know most of you are experts here but I'll be starting my custom build soon and would rather not waste research money re-inventing the wheel. Once the build is finished I'd like to see 6Gb/s transfers or close to it. If any of you have any other technical advice or hardware suggestions, by all means, please share. On my end, I'll keep you all up to date on how my project progresses.

Thank you again,

ChemicalSmile
 
ChemicalSmile said:
...I should technically have access to a potential of 48 drives and raid them out as a single array?
Click to expand...

No, you have to look at the spec sheet of your HBA/RAID controller. It will tell you the max. no. of drives you can have per RAID group
 
first, expander/backplane are usually on the same board.

second, how do you plan to serve up these drives?

if you go with something like openindiana + napp-it and use an HBA like the LSI one i mentioned above, it will support up to 1,024 SATA/SAS devices.

if you go with something else using a traditional raid card, the device limit will depend on that card.

good luck!
 
stevebaynet said:
first, expander/backplane are usually on the same board.

second, how do you plan to serve up these drives?

if you go with something like openindiana + napp-it and use an HBA like the LSI one i mentioned above, it will support up to 1,024 SATA/SAS devices.

if you go with something else using a traditional raid card, the device limit will depend on that card.

good luck!
Click to expand...

Sounds like I'll need it. So different from the SATA setups I've worked with. I'm looking to design an enclosure to house the drives and the integrated server and apparently I'm not quick enough on the uptake to figure out how to make this workable. Thanks for all your help everyone. You've all been kind to a helpless noob. I'll watch the thread in case anyone has anything to add. If anyone has links to diagrams that might shed some light on this for me that would be great, either way thanks again. You've all been great.
 
well, we seem to have made an assumption from your description, namely that you need the drives to be in hot-swappable carriages. if you don't need the drives to be in hot-swap carriages we can make this a whole hell of a lot easier, just skip the backplanes and use fanout cables.

look at sff-8087 to sff-8482 forward breakout cables.
 
Dalfo002 said:
well, we seem to have made an assumption from your description, namely that you need the drives to be in hot-swappable carriages. if you don't need the drives to be in hot-swap carriages we can make this a whole hell of a lot easier, just skip the backplanes and use fanout cables.

look at sff-8087 to sff-8482 forward breakout cables.
Click to expand...

I wish I could avoid the back-planes but they're a must. I hope I'm not the only noob haunting this place asking silly questions. Anyway, if it helps, an overview of what I'm wanting to do follows.

I'm working on a design for an SAS NAS device. High density, 44 drives comes to mind. The device will have an integrated server built right into the enclosure. My stumbling point, and there are many, is the ability to install the appropriate hardware to communicate with all 44 or so drives in the device. SAS hardware, HBA's and SAS controlers and expanders are obviously new to me. I'll be designing the enclosure to have an exposed SAS output to cascade to other boxes, but for the sake of argument we can ignore that and stick with the idea that this is a completely standalone storage server. I hate asking to have my hand held here, but a list of appropriate hardware (not vendor specific, just generalities) for the project would be amazing, How to interconnect it properly and some info on how to wire it all up would cure my migraine. I doubt it matters but If I succeed the design will be open-sourced and shared with all. I know I come off a less then knowledgeable but I pole-vaulted my car on Sunday and I've got a concussion. Not an excuse, it just doesn't help me think straight.

Anyway, you've all offered more than you had to and if need be I'll start chewing up my funds and work on a trial and error basis.

Thanks again all.

ChemicalSmile.
 
stop apologising, lol. thats what boards like this are for.

are you trying to build your own enclosure? including the ability to hot swap drives?

or are you planing to use an existing enclosure?

if your building your own enclosure, are you willing to buy hot swap drive bays and fit them? or are you literally looking to fabricate all that yourself.

let's start there
 
stevebaynet said:
stop apologising, lol. thats what boards like this are for.

are you trying to build your own enclosure? including the ability to hot swap drives?

or are you planing to use an existing enclosure?

if your building your own enclosure, are you willing to buy hot swap drive bays and fit them? or are you literally looking to fabricate all that yourself.

let's start there
Click to expand...

Thank you. The chassis will be completely, professionally custom fabricated. As for the bays, I haven't ever had to design one from scratch so It may be necessary to purchase them. Thank you for helping me. The apologizing is due to the fact that my ego is hurting and I hate wasting peoples time. I'm used to being able to help myself. I'm glad I've found a place where help is forthcoming.
 
Ok, yeah, i wouldnt reccomend trying to fabricate the drive trays yourself, overkill.

I see a few options:

Option 1:

You buy a backplane with expander and just buy the drive sleds. You'll need to design a chassis in a manner that will allow the drive sleds to connect to the backplane. (this assumes your looking at 3.5" Sas or SATA drives)

backplane/expander:
http://www.supermicro.com/manuals/other/BPN-SAS-846EL.pdf
http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-bpn-sas2-846el1~7SUP926P.htm

drive sleds:
http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-mcp-220-00075-0b~7SUP92HK.htm

Option 2:

You buy already made drive enclosures and mount them in your custom made chassis. You could then use an expander to connect all the drives in the enclosures up to your HBA or Raid card.

Enclosure example:

http://www.norcotek.com/SS-500.php

Expander example:

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/servers/raid/raid-controller-res2sv240.html

And then there of course are a million other options, heh, but thats my .02
 
stevebaynet said:
Ok, yeah, i wouldnt reccomend trying to fabricate the drive trays yourself, overkill.

I see a few options:

Option 1:

You buy a backplane with expander and just buy the drive sleds. You'll need to design a chassis in a manner that will allow the drive sleds to connect to the backplane. (this assumes your looking at 3.5" Sas or SATA drives)

backplane/expander:
http://www.supermicro.com/manuals/other/BPN-SAS-846EL.pdf
http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-bpn-sas2-846el1~7SUP926P.htm

drive sleds:
http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-mcp-220-00075-0b~7SUP92HK.htm

Option 2:

You buy already made drive enclosures and mount them in your custom made chassis. You could then use an expander to connect all the drives in the enclosures up to your HBA or Raid card.

Enclosure example:

http://www.norcotek.com/SS-500.php

Expander example:

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/servers/raid/raid-controller-res2sv240.html

And then there of course are a million other options, heh, but thats my .02
Click to expand...

Beautiful. It's becoming much clearer now. My last question would relate to controllers. What would I be needing in the line of HBAs SAS controllers, RAID controllers etc to interface all of this, how would I link it all up? The cable choices seem bewildering to me there are so many. You've already been an amazing help and once I've finished the first prototype I'd be inclined to ship it out to you for testing if you were interested enough.
Thank you again,

ChemicalSmile
 
One last thing, I noticed one of the back planes listed as supporting 36 drives. What if I wanted to support 44 - 52 in an enclosure? Is there a method to make that work or is 36 going to be about the max?
 
ChemicalSmile said:
One last thing, I noticed one of the back planes listed as supporting 36 drives. What if I wanted to support 44 - 52 in an enclosure? Is there a method to make that work or is 36 going to be about the max?
Click to expand...

Most i see support up to 24 drives, but you can basically cascade nearly any number of backplanes to get to the final number you want. it mainly depends on how you wanna lay it out in your chasis.
 
stevebaynet said:
Most i see support up to 24 drives, but you can basically cascade nearly any number of backplanes to get to the final number you want. it mainly depends on how you wanna lay it out in your chasis.
Click to expand...

Cascading the back planes. As in linking one to the other via an SAS Cable? Do the back planes themselves have the ability to add to the overall port count? Or do I run a separate set of cables from another controller to the extra back-planes? As for the chassis layout, I'd like to vertically mount the drives as in the sun thumper. Any suggestions?
 
We expect the best from you...final design so be a poor man's version of this:

http://www.sgi.com/products/storage/jbod/mis_jbod.html

That's 81 3.5" drives in 4U.

What looks neat about the above enclosure is you can have anywhere between 2 and 8 SAS wide uplinks...which is extremely flexiable.


Of course it's a GAZILLION dollars just for the enclosure.

I figure you should be able to design the same thing for about $2500.
 
ChemicalSmile said:
Cascading the back planes. As in linking one to the other via an SAS Cable? Do the back planes themselves have the ability to add to the overall port count? Or do I run a separate set of cables from another controller to the extra back-planes? As for the chassis layout, I'd like to vertically mount the drives as in the sun thumper. Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

You can do either or. example: 3 24port backplane/expanders from supermicro = up to 72 drives.

You can either:

A: cascade them. HBA port --> 1st backplane --> 2nd backplane --> 3rd backplane

B: connect them directly (assuming you have an HBA with enough ports).
HBA port1 --> 1st backplane
HBA port2 --> 2nd backplane
HBA port3 --> 3rd backplane
 
packetboy said:
We expect the best from you...final design so be a poor man's version of this:

http://www.sgi.com/products/storage/jbod/mis_jbod.html

That's 81 3.5" drives in 4U.

What looks neat about the above enclosure is you can have anywhere between 2 and 8 SAS wide uplinks...which is extremely flexiable.


Of course it's a GAZILLION dollars just for the enclosure.

I figure you should be able to design the same thing for about $2500.
Click to expand...


that or even a 'poor mans' version would be pretty epic (obviously there is the backblaze pod)
 
packetboy said:
We expect the best from you...final design so be a poor man's version of this:

http://www.sgi.com/products/storage/jbod/mis_jbod.html

That's 81 3.5" drives in 4U.

What looks neat about the above enclosure is you can have anywhere between 2 and 8 SAS wide uplinks...which is extremely flexiable.


Of course it's a GAZILLION dollars just for the enclosure.

I figure you should be able to design the same thing for about $2500.
Click to expand...

Haha, I'm terrible at detecting internet sarcasm. I'm assuming that was it. lol.
 
Origin_Unknown said:
that or even a 'poor mans' version would be pretty epic (obviously there is the backblaze pod)
Click to expand...

I develop back-blaze pods but I want an SAS server because I'm bored with them and there's better tech out there. Besides, I've obviously got alot to learn and SAS is where I want to go.

Thanks again for the input.

ChemicalSmile
 
stevebaynet said:
You can do either or. example: 3 24port backplane/expanders from supermicro = up to 72 drives.

You can either:

A: cascade them. HBA port --> 1st backplane --> 2nd backplane --> 3rd backplane

B: connect them directly (assuming you have an HBA with enough ports).
HBA port1 --> 1st backplane
HBA port2 --> 2nd backplane
HBA port3 --> 3rd backplane
Click to expand...

Perfect, thank you again. I understand now. At least enough to be dangerous lol
 
Anyone have any motherboard/processor/RAM recommendations for this monster? If I'm going to screw up I may as well screw up spectacularly.
 
OK, so correct me if I'm way off please. I've come up with a list of potential hardware for my system. I'm learning so some of it may be useless and some of it may be able to be replaced with more cost effective components.That being said:

SAS Backplanes
A couple of 12 port options. I figure I'll use 4. Again, if you have a better alternative, please share.
BPN-SAS-213A
BPN-SAS-216A
4 of these should give me the ability to load out 48 drives (If I haven't missed anything)

Hotswap drive sleds, supermicro, Part# MCP-220-00075-0B If I go with a full 48 drives, I'll be needing 48 of these.

LSI SAS 9201-16i Host Bus Adapter Card

2 X RAID Expander Card RES2SV240

if any of this seems usable for my project, I'll need to wire it all up, which will be a trick since I'm new to this. Fans I'm not concerned with just yet, I'll get there.

The other component choices I need to make are motherboard/processor/ram and a redundant power supply that will most likely require a custom harness.

So to all the gurus out there, pick the idea apart, add to it and feel free to offer solutions that make more sense.

Thanks again all,

ChemicalSmile
 
why not get the Supermicro expanders to go with the backplanes?

You just need to power them and grab some minisas cables and you are up and running...

Depending how you want to configure it, you will only need 8 minisas cables.
2 from LSI card to the 1st 2 backplane expanders
2 to the next backplanes expanders
2 to the next backplanes expanders
2 to the next backplanes expanders

and a whole bunch of Molex power cables;)

.
 
Stanza33 said:
why not get the Supermicro expanders to go with the backplanes?

You just need to power them and grab some minisas cables and you are up and running...

Depending how you want to configure it, you will only need 8 minisas cables.
2 from LSI card to the 1st 2 backplane expanders
2 to the next backplanes expanders
2 to the next backplanes expanders
2 to the next backplanes expanders

and a whole bunch of Molex power cables;)

.
Click to expand...
'
Thanks again,

The supermicro expanders as opposed to the intel ones? Do you have a part number or link to them so I can check them out? Would I still go with two of them?
 
Stanza33 said:
read here

all will be revealed;)

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1668458

.
Click to expand...

Haha, all has been revealed indeed. Thank you. I was looking around for the SuperMicro SC216E26-R1200LPB expanders and I can only find them installed in a chassis. You wouldn't have any idea where I could purchase them separate on their own would you? Seeing as it's all going in a custom chassis, buying a supermicro chassis to get the expanders is not really an option. You've been a great help and once the beast is finished, if you're interested I'll ship it out to you so you can play with it.

ChemicalSmile
 
ChemicalSmile said:
Haha, all has been revealed indeed. Thank you. I was looking around for the SuperMicro SC216E26-R1200LPB expanders and I can only find them installed in a chassis. You wouldn't have any idea where I could purchase them separate on their own would you? Seeing as it's all going in a custom chassis, buying a supermicro chassis to get the expanders is not really an option. You've been a great help and once the beast is finished, if you're interested I'll ship it out to you so you can play with it.

ChemicalSmile
Click to expand...

Ship it to me in Australia?

Cool... I am not sending it back tho:D

No sorry, no idea where to buy the expander by themselves... others may be able to help.

Or buy 4 cases and sell the remaining parts you don't need on ebay to recoup costs??

.
 
ChemicalSmile said:
Haha, all has been revealed indeed. Thank you. I was looking around for the SuperMicro SC216E26-R1200LPB expanders and I can only find them installed in a chassis. You wouldn't have any idea where I could purchase them separate on their own would you?
Click to expand...

You need to find a good super micro reseller (even handier if local to you). The reason you dont find much options online is that other than prebuilt systems you see, most commerce is done through resellers instead of direct through supermicro.
 
stevebaynet said:
You need to find a good super micro reseller (even handier if local to you). The reason you dont find much options online is that other than prebuilt systems you see, most commerce is done through resellers instead of direct through supermicro.
Click to expand...

Thanks guys, I might look into some of the chenbro backplanes if I have too much trouble sourcing the supermicro ones. I've got a couple of other options as well. I'll probably be bothering you guys with more questions. You've been awesome so far so please bear with me. I'm off to source equipment.

Take care all,

ChemicalSmile
 
I doubt I'm the only one who's run into trouble sourcing bare sas back-planes. I'm looking for a reliable source of 12+port expander back planes. Mini-sas, preferably supermicro. Anyone out there have any leads? US or Canada supplier would be great.

Thanks in advance all.
ChemicalSmile
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top