Help! Wireless noob in peril!

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Stiletto

Supreme [H]ardness
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Jul 13, 2008
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So just today, I hooked up our apartment computers to wireless. We have two desktops(bought Belkin USB adapters for) and a laptop with built-in wireless. I have a Linksys WRT54G2 router and, now, a Netgear WGR614.

Here's the thing: We have a 10 meg internet connection from Charter. Over wired, we've been enjoying 1+ meg/sec download speeds. Wired into the Linksys router, we enjoy the same speeds. Over wireless...the speeds tumble. Averaging 100-200K/sec max.

Is this simply a limitation of wireless G, or am I missing something?
 
What speeds were you getting with the wrt54g2? Is the Netgear the one giving you slow speeds? You don't have them both hooked up together..double NAT'd, do you?
 
No no...I had the wrt54g2 hooked up before.

Wired: Full 1+MB download speeds. Download testing sites say I have a 10 meg connection.
Wireless: 100k-200k download speeds. Download testing sites say I have a 2.5 meg connection.

So I searched around a bit on here...someone had the same problem and was told that the router may be bad. I went to BB and picked up the Netgear...same issues. I'm assuming I didn't get two bad routers, of different makes, in a row. I'm wondering if it's normal for wireless-G to throttle broadband like this.

Otherwise, what might I be missing?
 
Is there a maximum internet download speed you should expect with wireless G?
 
When I lived in my prior house and had Comcast, I ran G and I'd regularly bench 18 megs on speedtests, and actual download speeds would reflect that...in a 2 story house. With G, even though it says 54 megs max, you usually can get 18-20...sometimes 22 megs...depending on your wireless NIC.

Other factors...neighboring wireless networks on the same channel. Try changing from the usual default channel 6 to 1 or 11.
 
nice thread title lol

yeah, Mr. Stonecat is right, channel overlap can cause interference on all connections within the same 5 channel range, that's especially prevalent in apartment complexes or high density areas where houses are stacked on each other.
 
Fail said:
nice thread title lol

yeah, Mr. Stonecat is right, channel overlap can cause interference on all connections within the same 5 channel range, that's especially prevalent in apartment complexes or high density areas where houses are stacked on each other.
Click to expand...

So, basically, in order to use my full 10 meg internet connection, my best bet is to upgrade to wireless N 300, in order to offset all the interference?
 
You can try to switch the channel that your router is operating on. Instead of 6 or 11 try 3, this will keep interference to a minimum. Otherwise if your router and wireless card support it you can try wireless A.
 
Stiletto said:
So, basically, in order to use my full 10 meg internet connection, my best bet is to upgrade to wireless N 300, in order to offset all the interference?
Click to expand...

Try my suggestion with changing the channel to 1 or 11 first. ;)

Also, if the Netgear has some "turbo" or "108" or some other proprietary mode....try locking it to "G-Only" mode instead. Those turbo or proprietary high modes usually only work well with matching brand/model wireless NICs.
 
Stiletto, I was just echoing what Stonecat said, you don't need new equipment . . . what's the point of buying new equipment when it's not a hardware issue?
 
Channels 1, 6 and 11 for wireless do not overlap each other. Most home wireless routers and devices are setup to use channel 6 by default.

My suggestion would be to download on one machine and install inssider from MetaGeek. It's a free wireless channel scanner that will tell you which channel should work best for you. Most likely though, you will have to change your router to channel 1 or 11 for maximum signal strength and throughput.

http://www.metageek.net/products/inssider/download
 
closers said:
You can try to switch the channel that your router is operating on. Instead of 6 or 11 try 3, this will keep interference to a minimum. Otherwise if your router and wireless card support it you can try wireless A.
Click to expand...

Tried 5, 1, 11, and 3. Nothing. Best test I got was 2.9Mbps on channel 11.

Fail said:
Stiletto, I was just echoing what Stonecat said, you don't need new equipment . . . what's the point of buying new equipment when it's not a hardware issue?
Click to expand...

I'm still not sure if it's a hardware issue or not. It's probably not a defective hardware issue, but I'm wondering if the limitations of 54G, combined with the fact that I live in an apartment complex, might be to blame. If so, wouldn't going up to wireless N help alleviate that problem?

Wired works full speed, wireless still working at 1/4th speed. Baffled. I've got it locked to G only, also.
 
Let me ask you this, is one of you only using 802.11b? If one person is using b, it will force all other connections to go down to b speeds, which is 11Mbps, or real transfer speeds of about 5Mbps, which shared by both of you, would be 2.5Mbps each, or about 700KB/s total speed.

802.11b will severely limit your download bandwidth. Make sure you both are using 802.11g or beyond.
 
Red Falcon said:
Let me ask you this, is one of you only using 802.11b? If one person is using b, it will force all other connections to go down to b speeds, which is 11Mbps, or real transfer speeds of about 5Mbps, which shared by both of you, would be 2.5Mbps each, or about 700KB/s total speed.

802.11b will severely limit your download bandwidth. Make sure you both are using 802.11g or beyond.
Click to expand...

The adapters I got were wireless-G ones, these ones.

I assumed they would run only for G if connected to a router that was set to G only. Is there a setting somewhere in Windows I should check?
 
It sounds like a driver issue more than anything else. It is definitely not a limitation of the standard. Try updating to the newest drivers for your adapter on your laptop and make sure the radio is set to maximum performance.
 
did you check your actual router settings to make sure it was on the correct standard?
 
closers said:
It sounds like a driver issue more than anything else. It is definitely not a limitation of the standard. Try updating to the newest drivers for your adapter on your laptop and make sure the radio is set to maximum performance.
Click to expand...

There are no newer drivers. These are the newest.
 
Try turning security off and see what happens, though this is not a permanent solution.
 
When your doing these tests do have both your laptop and desktop connected through wireless at the same time? I believe the wireless signal/bandwidth is split between however many clients you have connected. Try testing with just one client connected at a time, try doing this with each of the different adapters that you have on the laptop and see which one performs better. I believe you said you had a USB dongle, try the internal first then disable it and try the usb dongle. Also here are some standard tips

1. Always use same vendor equipment if possible

2. Replace the standard antenna on the WAP with a high gain antenna that you can get at any of the major electronic stores for $20

3. Use a non-overlapping channel. In your case it looks like 11 performs the best. But make sure you scan the area to make sure no one else is use that same channel in the near vicinity, use corge's suggestion. Others out there like net stumbler and vista stumlber work well. You can even install an app on your phone - like the iphone, itouch or android phones to search for wireless access points in the area work well.

4.Reduce wireless interference, make sure you don't have any electronics next to your WAP , especially any phones that are 2.4GHz. This the same spectrum as your WAP. Other common EMI emitters are microwaves, TV's, and fluorescent lighting.

5. Move your wireless access point away from walls and keep it off the floor.

The last thing I can suggest if you have some modding skills is to replace your WGR614 firmware with some opensource solutions like Tomato, DD-WRT or OPEN-WRT. I use DD-WRT on my WRT54G v4 and it works like a charm. I have many options that don't come with the standard linksys firmware. I can boost the radio signals, perform wake on lan remotely, setup vpn tunnels, configure a DMZ, setup as a repeater,and many more options. Caution, this could brick your device if you don't know what your doing. So only perform at you own discretion.

Tomato

DD-WRT

Open WRT
 
I tried it with only myself attached to the router...still 2.5M internet connection from a normally 10M connection.

It's not a matter of a weak wireless signal. I can get a perfect signal to the router. When wired, I can get a full internet connection from the router. However, when wireless, clear as the signal is, the internet connection is a fraction of what it is supposed to be.

I'm at a loss.
 
Stiletto said:
I tried it with only myself attached to the router...still 2.5M internet connection from a normally 10M connection.

It's not a matter of a weak wireless signal. I can get a perfect signal to the router. When wired, I can get a full internet connection from the router. However, when wireless, clear as the signal is, the internet connection is a fraction of what it is supposed to be.

I'm at a loss.
Click to expand...

If its not a signal issue I would then go on to saying that its a EMI issue. Try separating your modem/any device from your wireless router and see if it makes a difference.
 
crazyfinx said:
If its not a signal issue I would then go on to saying that its a EMI issue. Try separating your modem/any device from your wireless router and see if it makes a difference.
Click to expand...

Took the router into an entirely different room, put it on a closet shelf away from other electronics...no go.

I've thrown up my hands and ordered a wireless-N router and adapter. I'll try out the adapter first, to rule that out, then I'll try the N router. Going to be royally pissed if THAT can't deliver a full 10 meg connection.
 
did you set QoS or anything on the router?

try turning that off and see what you get....

did you use inSSIDer? Did you see a ton of traffic or other wireless channels in the area?
 
turb0 said:
did you set QoS or anything on the router?

try turning that off and see what you get....

did you use inSSIDer? Did you see a ton of traffic or other wireless channels in the area?
Click to expand...

Yeah, inSSIDer picked up about a dozen networks in the area.

I tried QoS both on and off. Nada.
 
Download netstumbler and run it to see how many other networks surround you. Pick the channel that has the least number of networks on it given that the networks on the channel you pick don't have high signal strength.


This will give you a start to knowing how much RF interference you may have

http://www.netstumbler.com/downloads/
 
IStorm said:
Download netstumbler and run it to see how many other networks surround you. Pick the channel that has the least number of networks on it given that the networks on the channel you pick don't have high signal strength.


This will give you a start to knowing how much RF interference you may have

http://www.netstumbler.com/downloads/
Click to expand...

inSSIDer is the NetStumbler replacement ;) the "latest" version of NetStumbler is 0.4.0 which is 5+ years old :p

to the OP... I didn't see it mentioned anywhere... are the speed results consistent with all computers, or just 1? you didn't specifically mention that the results are the same between all 3, anyway...
 
For Vista/Windows 7..check out Xirrus WiFi Monitor gadget for your bar..I find it very handy, the detail plotting is great. Good instant access when you want it.
 
j-sta said:
inSSIDer is the NetStumbler replacement ;) the "latest" version of NetStumbler is 0.4.0 which is 5+ years old :p

to the OP... I didn't see it mentioned anywhere... are the speed results consistent with all computers, or just 1? you didn't specifically mention that the results are the same between all 3, anyway...
Click to expand...

The internet speed is the same with both desktops and the laptop...internet speed never tops 3 meg. I disconnected all other wireless devices, reset the router and adapter...still 3 meg out of what should be 10.

I picked up an actual desktop adapter to plug in to see if there'd be any difference. I'll update the thread when I install it.
 
Just to repeat to those reading before they respond again about this: My network speed and signal are fine. The wireless network speed and signal is not the problem. The speed I'm getting for the internet through wireless connections is the problem.

I went back to the Linksys WRT54G2 router. I popped in a Linksys PCI wireless-G adapter. This time, I tried performance.toast.net, which had, among others, confirmed only a 2.5-3 Meg connection over wireless. This time, I got nearly a 5 Meg connection. Tried it on the other desktop with the Belkin USB adapter...also 5 Meg. However, on testmy.net's download speed test...it's showing me as still around 2.5-3 Meg. However, the difference at toast seems to show real impact. The Linksys definitely seems to be giving me a better experience, but still not the experience of my full 10 Meg internet.

My wireless-N router should arrive by the end of the week. Perhaps that will make even more difference.
 
Last edited:
Stiletto said:
Just to repeat to those reading before they respond again about this: My network speed and signal are fine. The wireless network speed and signal is not the problem. The speed I'm getting for the internet through wired connections is the problem.

I went back to the Linksys WRT54G2 router. I popped in a Linksys PCI wireless-G adapter. This time, I tried performance.toast.net, which had, among others, confirmed only a 2.5-3 Meg connection over wireless. This time, I got nearly a 5 Meg connection. Tried it on the other desktop with the Belkin USB adapter...also 5 Meg. However, on testmy.net's download speed test...it's showing me as still around 2.5-3 Meg. However, the difference at toast seems to show real impact. The Linksys definitely seems to be giving me a better experience, but still not the experience of my full 10 Meg internet.

My wireless-N router should arrive by the end of the week. Perhaps that will make even more difference.
Click to expand...


What your saying now an what you originally noted contradict themselves, what ever your trying to say is confusing.:confused:

Original Statement
"Here's the thing: We have a 10 meg internet connection from Charter. Over wired, we've been enjoying 1+ meg/sec download speeds. Wired into the Linksys router, we enjoy the same speeds. Over wireless...the speeds tumble. Averaging 100-200K/sec max."

lol, what I don't understand is that if speed or signal strength are not issues how would a wireless N router help your problem?

" The speed I'm getting for the internet through wired connections is the problem.[/B]"
:confused::confused::confused: whaaaa

Please clarify if this a wired internet speed issue, or wireless internet speed issue?
 
Stiletto said:
Just to repeat to those reading before they respond again about this: My network speed and signal are fine. The wireless network speed and signal is not the problem. The speed I'm getting for the internet through wireless connections is the problem.
Click to expand...

Sort of a contradiction here. Please note...when you see your wireless connection status at your wireless NIC...it doesn't mean that's what your actual real world transfer speeds are. When you see "Connected at 54 megs", or "Excellent signal", or.."whatever"...that's not a reliable/true indication of your wireless speed. It speaketh with a forked tongue. Thus....your issue most likely is your your wireless network. ;)
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
Sort of a contradiction here. Please note...when you see your wireless connection status at your wireless NIC...it doesn't mean that's what your actual real world transfer speeds are. When you see "Connected at 54 megs", or "Excellent signal", or.."whatever"...that's not a reliable/true indication of your wireless speed. It speaketh with a forked tongue. Thus....your issue most likely is your your wireless network. ;)
Click to expand...

So what is a reliable/true indicator of the speed of my network? Transferring files over the network? A third party program?
 
Transferring files is good, or using some LAN transfer benching programs....Ixia QCheck, stuff like that.

There's just soooo many variables with wireless....it's hard to get consistent results, especially with home grade equipment.

First...G can give you close to 20 megs..I've run on it for years, like I mentioned before, in my old house with Comcast with powerboost, my G could keep up with a good 18 megs of that powerboost. (my wired would punch well into the 30's).

But if you're sharing your wireless...., as soon as a 2nd person logs in and starts using their wireless...cut your wireless bandwidth in 1/2. Home wireless gear (and probably enterprise even) won't perform in true duplex like a switch.

More entry level wireless routers will share the processor load between the router and the wireless AP. So putting heavy wireless traffic on there can bog the CPU down...which can also affect even wired users on the internet.

Neighboring wireless networks...same channels.

Cordless phones on the 2.4 frequency....both in your house, and your neighbors if they're close enough. Microwave ovens (and close neighbors with one), etc.

Your selection of a wireless NIC. They're just like all other computer hardware, they vary in performance. And you have compatibility of those NICs with brands of wireless routers/APs. For laptops..I always insist on Intel Centrino, and I run away from Atheros based ones like they have herpes.

I've used Belkin wireless gear with success...but I haven't tried their USB ones, I've used a few of their PCMCIA ones for laptops and they work well. Now...USB can carry a performance hit with it, since it relies heavily on CPU utilization...although granted with todays multi-core computers..that shouldn't be an issue. But I would probably expect a bit more inconsistency from a USB wireless NIC versus one in a PCI slot or cardbus of a laptop.
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
Transferring files is good, or using some LAN transfer benching programs....Ixia QCheck, stuff like that.

There's just soooo many variables with wireless....it's hard to get consistent results, especially with home grade equipment.

First...G can give you close to 20 megs..I've run on it for years, like I mentioned before, in my old house with Comcast with powerboost, my G could keep up with a good 18 megs of that powerboost. (my wired would punch well into the 30's).

But if you're sharing your wireless...., as soon as a 2nd person logs in and starts using their wireless...cut your wireless bandwidth in 1/2. Home wireless gear (and probably enterprise even) won't perform in true duplex like a switch.

More entry level wireless routers will share the processor load between the router and the wireless AP. So putting heavy wireless traffic on there can bog the CPU down...which can also affect even wired users on the internet.

Neighboring wireless networks...same channels.

Cordless phones on the 2.4 frequency....both in your house, and your neighbors if they're close enough. Microwave ovens (and close neighbors with one), etc.

Your selection of a wireless NIC. They're just like all other computer hardware, they vary in performance. And you have compatibility of those NICs with brands of wireless routers/APs. For laptops..I always insist on Intel Centrino, and I run away from Atheros based ones like they have herpes.

I've used Belkin wireless gear with success...but I haven't tried their USB ones, I've used a few of their PCMCIA ones for laptops and they work well. Now...USB can carry a performance hit with it, since it relies heavily on CPU utilization...although granted with todays multi-core computers..that shouldn't be an issue. But I would probably expect a bit more inconsistency from a USB wireless NIC versus one in a PCI slot or cardbus of a laptop.
Click to expand...

So theoretically, if you have a broadband connection in excess of 5 meg, and more than one user in your household, N would be a better option than G?
 
for every person connected to the wireless, you would take the theoretical wireless speed and divide by however many people are connected, to get the theoretical speed each user would get (I'm pretty sure, but somebody please correct me if I'm wrong).

So.... 1 person @ 54 = 54/1 = 54
2 @ 54 = 54/2 = 27
3 @ 54 = 18
etc

Or is it it gets cut in half with each user? ie, 1 = 54, 2 = 27, 3 = 13.5?

Just because it says you're connected to the AP @ 54mbps, doesn't mean you will get the 54.

So 18mbps would be the theoretical max. For giggles we'll just say 10. So that would be 10mbps total throughput per user. You have an internet connection that's 10mbps.

And to prove it is just your wireless network, you could transfer a file from a wireless client to a wired client (or wired to wireless, either way).

Chances are, since you are in an apt complex, the issues are stemming from neighbors with wireless networks and 2.4GHz phones.

Upgrading to N may help, but only if you set it up to only use the 5GHz spectrum. Or, go with the dead wireless A since it also operates in 5Ghz (iirc, been a while)
 
j-sta said:
for every person connected to the wireless, you would take the theoretical wireless speed and divide by however many people are connected, to get the theoretical speed each user would get (I'm pretty sure, but somebody please correct me if I'm wrong).

So.... 1 person @ 54 = 54/1 = 54
2 @ 54 = 54/2 = 27
3 @ 54 = 18
etc

Or is it it gets cut in half with each user? ie, 1 = 54, 2 = 27, 3 = 13.5?

Just because it says you're connected to the AP @ 54mbps, doesn't mean you will get the 54.

So 18mbps would be the theoretical max. For giggles we'll just say 10. So that would be 10mbps total throughput per user. You have an internet connection that's 10mbps.

And to prove it is just your wireless network, you could transfer a file from a wireless client to a wired client (or wired to wireless, either way).

Chances are, since you are in an apt complex, the issues are stemming from neighbors with wireless networks and 2.4GHz phones.

Upgrading to N may help, but only if you set it up to only use the 5GHz spectrum. Or, go with the dead wireless A since it also operates in 5Ghz (iirc, been a while)
Click to expand...

I'm just thinking that the 300 Mbps output of Wireless N would allow for much more headroom and eliminate the possibility of my wireless being spread too thinly between the number of people using it to bottleneck.
 
The standard is not your problem. It's just not. Many of us have been using Wireless-G in our homes for years without a problem. You just don't have the internet throughput to max you out unless you have a ridiculous number of clients.

As others have said, it's likely one of three things:

  • Interference (phones, other networks, etc. on the same frequency)
  • Adapters (you could have chosen a crappy model)
  • Drivers (the drivers for your adapters may be junk)

The N-router may help in the sense that it could theoretically operate at 5ghz, or that you're switching adapters, which would in turn have separate drivers. But it is not because you don't have "enough headroom" with a wireless-G connection.
 
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