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Help on picking sub

V

vroom_skies

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 25, 2005
Messages
1,390
Hey all,
My current setup is a pair of M-Audio BX5a's tied to a Maverick Audio TubeMagic D1.
I'm not a huge bass head by any means, but this setup is just a little weak on the low end for me.
I haven't started looking at options, but I'm hoping to keep the price low as I don't need anything over the top.

Thanks for the help in advance.
 
What's your budget? You're going to want a musical sub (ideally sealed) to match those monitors' sound quality.
 
Thanks for the info and links Ryom. I'll check them out when I get some free time.

It would be great to stay sub $100, but if there is a large quality jump going to $150 or so, then that could be a consideration as well.

Just an FYI, my previous setup were the Z-5500's and I turned the sub level on that way down as it was over powering for me. I don't know the specs of that sub off hand so I don't know how it places.

Thanks
 
I'd say for that budget you're pretty limited to the Polk PSW10. If you want to spend a little more for more power you could get the BIC V1020 from amazon for about $150. Lower bass extension than the PSW10 and louder if you need it to be louder. The bass extension doesn't matter a whole lot if you're just using it for music though.
 
You should get a much higher quality level of bass out of any "real" sub as opposed to almost any system designed for the PC. They tend to go for boom rather than true bass simply due their general nature... they are usually designed small and underpowered, less than a cubic foot and sub 50 watt, so that they can fit in with a PC. That's going to require serious tradeoffs, and is usually why you see so many bandpass designs with computer speakers. There have only been a handful of PC speaker systems that had subs of actual good musical quality.

The Polk PSW10 is not going to give you LFE like the higher powered subs will and it will hit a wall as far as SPL goes if you like to crank your music (it is only 50 watts after all, Polk just put that power to good use above the 30Hz range instead of wasting it trying to reproduce the extreme low end). As far as bang for the buck goes however, it's the best if you are on a budget (or want to pump the volume a bit without annoying your neighbors, that was actually a selling point for me). If you are looking for real bass, you are going to have to pay for it. Move up to the 505 or better, here is a short list of subs to consider:

Links:

~$100
Polk PSW10 - 10" 50 watt sub, cherry finish
Polk PSW10 - 10" 50 watt sub, black finish

~$250
Polk PSW505 - 12" 300 watt sub, black finish

~$350
Emotiva Ultra Sub 12" 300 watt sub

~$500
Epik Legend Subwoofer dual 12" 300 watt sub
 
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Thanks again you two!
The Polk PSW10 is looking to be the unit. I just wish I had a good understanding on how low of a Hz rating I would need. There isn't a tool that can scan your music and give you a chart based on your frequency range is there?

I'm thinking I could use lower then 30Hz, but then again that might be beyond perfect for my needs.

One last question. How would this be hooked up to my D1?

mavaudio_3.jpg


DV016_Jpg_Large_600739_pair_rear.jpg
 
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You should be able to connect its preamp output to the subs line-level input. The pre-amp output may be a variable out so it'll control the volume of the sub, so you may want to max the volume on the sub itself. Given the size of those speakers you'll probably want to set the crossover on the sub to around 80 - 100hz. You have a spare RCA cable laying around? Monoprice has em cheap, get a long one so you can put the sub wherever it sounds best.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10218&cs_id=1021814&p_id=2866&seq=1&format=2
 
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My speakers are actually on the tube/ pre out to take advantage of the tube amp.
What would the the other main way to hook up the sub?
 
vroom_skies said:
My speakers are actually on the tube/ pre out to take advantage of the tube amp.
What would the the other main way to hook up the sub?
Click to expand...

Just use the audio outs to go to the sub instead of the pre-outs. The line out is probably a fixed level so it wouldn't control volume of the sub. I'm not familiar with the specifics of your control unit so I couldn't say for sure. You could also try just using splitters on the pre-out and see how that sounds.
 
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The volume knob on the D1 works with all the outputs. Just hook the sub up to whichever output isn't being used.
 
Thanks you guys, thought it was a tad more difficult then that.
Glad to know it isn't.

Does anyone else have any more insight on the Dayton SUB-120? It has the frequency response that I was looking for (not sure if I'd benefit from it) and it's not much more then the Polk.

Hope to place an order today.
Thanks again
 
I would recommend against the PSW10 for music. It's just really boomy and doesn't sound good at all. Subwoofers under $100 aren't really more than noise boxes.

Go with the Dayton or BIC.
 
Man, this decision is getting harder.
Would the BIC Venturi V1020 be worth the over $50 price increase over the other options?

Also what kind of cables would I need to hook that unit up?

Ps- My listening habits are 70% music and 30% games and movies.
 
Yes, the Dayton or BIC solutions will be worth it over the Polk PSW10. I got rid of my old PSW10 and I'm very glad I did.
 
Well I think I've decided on the BIC Venturi V1020. I best be purchasing before I change my mind.
Before I buy, what would be the best was to connect the sub since it doesn't have two rca jacks?

I want to make sure I have all the parts needed before hand.

Thanks for all the help.
 
Well honestly it's not based on much.
The Bic is a tad bit smaller which is nice and I prefer the looks.
The Dayton has the lower frequency rating, but I've heard it's boomier and caters more towards movies instead of music. Though it is $50 cheaper.

The Bic seems to be the better fit for my needs, but I could easily be pulled either way.
Would you say that's an accurate assumption or no?
 
SirMaster said:
I would recommend against the PSW10 for music. It's just really boomy and doesn't sound good at all. Subwoofers under $100 aren't really more than noise boxes.

Go with the Dayton or BIC.
Click to expand...

That's a little harsh, the PSW10 is just fine for most budget users and not boomy unless you jam it in a corner and set the crossover and volume to max. Yes there are better subs, but you can't get them for $89 shipped unless they are on a really good sale. If you're willing to spend another $50 you can get a better sub, but then again if you are willing to spend another $50 you can get an even better sub, and so on and so forth. If your budget is under $100, the PSW10 is as good as they come. Naturally if you increase your budget by 50% you can get better equipment.

But yes, the the PSW10 should be considered a starter sub, to be upgraded once the budget is available for something in a much higher league. I'd also consider the PSW10 the perfect apartment sub, adds a good bass line without a lot of energy put into the spectrum that travels straight through the wall or through the floor.
 
I guess I would rather have no sub (for music) than waste $90 on a PSW10. That's all I was really trying to say. For me it was ruining the overall sound quality.

My speakers do go to 80Hz so I could get away with no sub, but at $150 the BIC sounds excellent compared to the PSW10, again for music.

The PSW10 is probably fine for movies and would definitely be better than no sub in that use.
 
I'm sorry, but the PSW10 is simply not that bad. It has shortcomings certainly, but it isn't a bad sub by any measure, especially considering its incredibly low cost. Is it possible you simply had a defective unit, or it wasn't positioned effectively in your room? Newegg may not be audiophile paradise, but if you read the reviews there are a lot of happy PSW10 owners... it has a solid 5 star rating over 300+ reviews and very few negative scores. It's a great sub if you're on a budget, though if you can pick up a more powerful sub at under $100 on a sale, that's great too. This unit isn't intended for blasting music and shaking the foundations of the building, but it will add a nice low end to small speakers at reasonable volumes and do it for very little moola.

Movies would actually be one of its weaker areas as it can't handle the sub-audible low frequency effects that a more powerful sub could, which are present in movies far more than in music.
 
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I doubt it wasn't positioned correctly. I've been setting up and using home theaters for many years and have heard dozens and dozens of speakers and subwoofers. I know how to calibrate a system for a room and how to calculate and set proper levels and crossovers. The PSW10 just wasn't musical in any way. I have the BIC in the same place and position and it sounds easily 10x more musical.

I really don't know how much I would trust newegg reviews for speakers... For example, look at the reviews for these logitech speakers:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16836121120

1,277 5-star reviews... I have personally owned theses speakers and they honestly sounded terrible, especially at their price. I really don't think most newegg users know what music is supposed to sound like.

I would much rather trust my own well-listened/trainer ears. I know plenty of other audiophiles who would agree with me that the PSW10 is no good.

I just can't personally recommend gear that I've heard that didn't perform.
 
Ryom said:
I'm sorry, but the PSW10 is simply not that bad. It has shortcomings certainly, but it isn't a bad sub by any measure, especially considering its incredibly low cost. Is it possible you simply had a defective unit, or it wasn't positioned effectively in your room? Newegg may not be audiophile paradise, but if you read the reviews there are a lot of happy PSW10 owners... it has a solid 5 star rating over 300+ reviews and very few negative scores. It's a great sub if you're on a budget, though if you can pick up a more powerful sub at under $100 on a sale, that's great too. This unit isn't intended for blasting music and shaking the foundations of the building, but it will add a nice low end to small speakers at reasonable volumes and do it for very little moola.

Movies would actually be one of its weaker areas as it can't handle the sub-audible low frequency effects that a more powerful sub could, which are present in movies far more than in music.
Click to expand...

Nah, really. The Dayton and the BIC are quite a bit better than the PSW10. I'd be willing to bet the new 12" sub sold directly from Monoprice is on par or better than the PSW10, too.
 
Let's bear in mind that those subs are usually 50% or greater more expensive as well. I haven't said that they weren't better, but that they aren't really in the same price range as the PSW10 unless they are on a particularly good sale. If you can get a higher end sub for under $100, that's great. I'm not sure about the monoprice sub, but it is definitely cheap. It's also directly in the same price class as the PSW10, so that's an entirely valid comparison.

edit: all that said, he can try out whatever subs he likes and just return them if they aren't up to par.
 
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"The Monoprice simply lives in the world of lowered expectations." From the above avs link.
 
I find it funny that the BIC is currently getting slammed in a thread on AVS the very same way you guys are slamming the PSW10 here. That's about what opinions are worth on the internet.

To the OP, get a sub in your budget from a place that has a good return policy and don't be swayed by anything other than your own ears.
 
Ryom said:
I find it funny that the BIC is currently getting slammed in a thread on AVS the very same way you guys are slamming the PSW10 here. That's about what opinions are worth on the internet.

To the OP, get a sub in your budget from a place that has a good return policy and don't be swayed by anything other than your own ears.
Click to expand...

The BIC F12? I doubt it. It is a great subwoofer for the cost.
 
This is from a thread regarding the Polk PSW505 and BIC f12 on AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1372356

I have no experience with the F12, and it really doesn't matter either way what sub he gets. I just wanted to make it clear that this can be a really, really subjective topic and he needs to trust his ears first and not voices on a forum.

jagzjagz said:
I agree. I love my Polk PSW505, and sounds way less muddy than the bic f12.... End of the day, it is each individuals perception on what they will like. I auditioned both subwoofers in an identical environment and test conditions, and found the PSW505 to be *far* superior to the BIC F12. Cleaner, louder, tighter bass without sounding boomy like the BIC. I'd never go with the BIC again.
Click to expand...

crazyrob425 said:
Hands down Polk psw505! The Bic f12 has in room response down to 30 hz the Polk goes to 25hz. At $180 the Polk PSW505 is an amazing deal and you will not find a better subwoofer for under $200. It will outperform the outlaw and the Lava too
The psw505 will put your infinity 8" to shame and it's far from muddy, muddy bass would be the Bic f12. The Polk psw505 is very musical and much more musical than any other subwoofer for $180...
Click to expand...

cel4145 said:
+1

crazyrob425 is right. The F12 is not a more detailed speaker than the Polk...
Click to expand...

Kini62 said:
This reviewer from Amazon has the exact opposite view. The 505 easily beats out the F12.
Click to expand...
 
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Ryom said:
I find it funny that the BIC is currently getting slammed in a thread on AVS the very same way you guys are slamming the PSW10 here. That's about what opinions are worth on the internet.

To the OP, get a sub in your budget from a place that has a good return policy and don't be swayed by anything other than your own ears.
Click to expand...

Slammed????? A couple negative comments from people who do not appear to have used\heard the sub?
OP I would stretch to the $150 range if I were trying to make that choice.
When I did make the choice I went used and found a good deal on a velodyne from craigslist. Went to see it and the seller auditioned it for me so I knew it worked and was not blown out etc.
 
Ryom said:
I find it funny that the BIC is currently getting slammed in a thread on AVS the very same way you guys are slamming the PSW10 here. That's about what opinions are worth on the internet.

To the OP, get a sub in your budget from a place that has a good return policy and don't be swayed by anything other than your own ears.
Click to expand...

Bollocks, it's about measured results and user experience. PSW10 is boomy and has a large peak in the 40-60hz range.

AS far as the PSW505 goes, yep I'd rather have it than the F12, but it's usually $40-75 more. The PSW10 isn't even close to the same thing as the 505, however. Don't take it as a personal attack on a sub you like, I owned one for several years and generally would not reccomend it to someone.
 
I'm not concerned over the general criticisms of the PSW10, just that is is referred to as a BAD sub period. It isn't BAD. It has weaknesses, but those weaknesses are acceptable for its entry level price and I did my best to make sure the OP was informed of it's shortcomings when I recommended it for his $100 or under budget. If we're going out of budget, he might as well step up to the 505 or something even better, because you can always get a sub that's better for just a little more money, and then a little more, and a little more. That's the point I'm contending.

His speakers have 5" drivers, and nice as they are, they simply are not going to be able to put significant power into the lower frequencies. The PSW10 can fill in most of the low end that music uses and it does it in his budget. He can return/sell it or upgrade once he has an idea of what is going to be needed for his situation. If he's willing to spend more, then that is up to him. The thread I linked on AVS was simply to show that for the most part, no matter what sub you recommend, someone is going to say it's boomy trash. You guys say the PSW10 is boomy trash here, the guys at AVS say the BIC F12 is boomy trash there. When someone asks about the PSW505, some other people are going to call it boomy trash and recommend an even more expensive subwoofer. I've seen this same act played OVER and OVER and OVER all the way up to subs costing thousands of dollars. Measurements and benchmarks are an aid to choosing, not the final word. Unless the user is going to carefully EQ his system with the proper equipment, and make sure his room is laid out right for audio, and make sure all his components are up to snuff, it really doesn't matter what the measurements say because they are not going to be the same for his equipment, in his room, all of which are going to affect the final output in his listening position.

What I want is for him to get a sub in his budget and try it himself and not listen to any of us. Keep us updated OP :)
 
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vroom_skies said:
There isn't a tool that can scan your music and give you a chart based on your frequency range is there?
Click to expand...
No, but I can tell you that the low E (open 4th string in standard tuning) on a bass/bass guitar is at 41 Hz, and is about the lowest music is ever likely to go (and even then, not that often). If you listen to classical/piano a lot, A0, the lowest key on the piano, comes in at 27.5 Hz, but I don't think I've ever encountered a piece that went that low. Usually, you're good for music if your speaker system doesn't start falling off until 60 Hz or so.
 
FWIW, some pipe organs can get down to 16Hz or even 8Hz depending on their pipe configuration.
 
lol... F-12 and the psw505 are both great sub-200 dollar subs :)

you can't really go wrong with either...
the 505 is a bit better with music, and the f-12 is a bit better in home theater (movies)
but it's not like one shits on the other

they can start being all nitpicky when they move up to a higher price range.
 
Suprfire said:
lol... F-12 and the psw505 are both great sub-200 dollar subs :)

you can't really go wrong with either...
the 505 is a bit better with music, and the f-12 is a bit better in home theater (movies)
but it's not like one shits on the other

they can start being all nitpicky when they move up to a higher price range.
Click to expand...

Some sanity is this thread finally. Thank you supr :)
 
I'm sorry for the delay you guys, was caught up in the holidays and what not.
I ended up getting the Dayton Sub-120 and it actually arrived today.

So it's all setup and running nicely. Though man the sub is huge, I measured it out before hand, but it's still bigger then what you would think. I'm glad to say the build quality is better then what I was expecting however, solid build for the price and specs.

So now time to break it and and get it fine tuned.

Thanks again for the help.
 
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