Help me grasp basic audio-related subjects...

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veritas7

Gawd
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
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I have to say, when it comes to audio or electrical engineering, I get totally lost.

I see these terms thrown around... like "DTS", "DDL", "S/PDIF" and such.

Heck, I also see a whole bunch of ways you guys are converting/cabling audio from one device to another... like using coaxial or some other cable to a receiver... or an amp...


Argh, what does it all mean? Anyone have any "noob audiophile terms and setups 101" kind of websites handy for people like me? :(

I recently bought an X-Fi Xtreme Music for pretty cheap from one of my gaming buddies... I still have an analog F/R/Low 2.1 pc speaker setup from Boston... planning to upgrade in the future when money isn't tight and when I understand more on what the heck everything means.
 
I'm surprised there's no sticky on that thread... will read and comment in this thread if anything else comes up. Thanks criccio!
 
Yea, we have asked for it to be stickied but the mods didn't want to at the time.
 
Alright, I went through it, and I guess I'm getting most of it.

Difference between coaxial and optical S/PDIF is like video cables, right? Like maybe HDMI and DVI(-D/I), or should the analogy be DVI and VGA/Analog?

Edit: Also, how does my S/PDIF work on my Xtreme Music? There's only four outputs, and I think my mic is sharing the ... coaxial??... S/PDIF line out....? Also, can't you connect the S/PDIF on your sound card to your motherboard, and then have your motherboard pass out the audio via optical S/PDIF? (I have an Abit IP35 mobo with Realtek sound that has S/PDIF out/in optical jacks on the back).

Also, right now (I have other upgrades planned, so all sound purchases are put on the backburner, including a DAC/receiver and new 2.1 speaks) I have a ok 2.1 speaks, and a crappy headset (with that clip on Zalman for my mic) ... what is a cheap solution to be able to switch between the two ?

Is there some sort of audio switch I can do so I don't have to manually unplug/plug in my headphones when I want to game? I have the green/black (front/subwoofer) hookups to my speakers, and then I plug in my headphones to the (green) jack. This is really a hassle, and I'm not sure on how to solve it (without throwing money at getting new 2.1 and a receiver/DAC).

I won't ask about some all-around headphones as I've already found three threads with some good listings of music/media/gaming headphones for under <$200.

Sorry for so many questions!
 
veritas7 said:
Alright, I went through it, and I guess I'm getting most of it.

Difference between coaxial and optical S/PDIF is like video cables, right? Like maybe HDMI and DVI(-D/I), or should the analogy be DVI and VGA/Analog?
Click to expand...

Your first analogy was better as coaxial and optical S/PDIF are both digital transmissions. In fact, its the same exact signal just two different mediums of delivery. Which is better is up in the air. FWIW, audiophiles tend to lean towards coaxial.

Edit: Also, how does my S/PDIF work on my Xtreme Music? There's only four outputs, and I think my mic is sharing the ... coaxial??... S/PDIF line out....?
Click to expand...
Your soundcard actually does optical S/PDIF out of that mic port with one of THESE adapters. They can be found on Monoprice and Amazon for a few cents each.

Also, can't you connect the S/PDIF on your sound card to your motherboard, and then have your motherboard pass out the audio via optical S/PDIF? (I have an Abit IP35 mobo with Realtek sound that has S/PDIF out/in optical jacks on the back).
Click to expand...
Yes. And FWIW, if that IS the option you choose, you might as well sell your soundcard as using the digital out whether it be on a $300 dollar soundcard or from the onboard audio on your motherboard, its an IDENTICAL signal. This wasn't true a few years ago but it is now. Especially with the new Realtek ALC chipsets.

Also, right now (I have other upgrades planned, so all sound purchases are put on the backburner, including a DAC/receiver and new 2.1 speaks) I have a ok 2.1 speaks, and a crappy headset (with that clip on Zalman for my mic) ... what is a cheap solution to be able to switch between the two ? Is there some sort of audio switch I can do so I don't have to manually unplug/plug in my headphones when I want to game? I have the green/black (front/subwoofer) hookups to my speakers, and then I plug in my headphones to the (green) jack. This is really a hassle, and I'm not sure on how to solve it (without throwing money at getting new 2.1 and a receiver/DAC).
You could get something like THIS, but If if was me I would just keep your speakers plugged into the back of your PC, and plug your headset into the front. Your audio software should pick up that you plugged in something to the front audio port and silence the rear. This can be accomplished with either your XtremeMusic or the onboard audio.

Good luck. ;)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Well, I only have the back panel to plug it in... I'm at work, but if I remembered right, there's no AC97/front panel audio hookup on the actual sound card, so I'm SOL for hooking it up to the front (and my rig is on the floor).

Also, I have a Lian Li and the front panel cables are not shielded as I found out (I can hear my hard drives EMI emissions, or something, definitely some interference).

Edit: How then can I use my mic AND S/PDIF out (when it comes time)? Or is it possible to remap the connectors? :\ Obviously it's not a concern now... but maybe later when I get a nice DAC... or would that SC->S/PDIF internal connector->mobo->S/PDIF optical out work as a solution to keep both my mic and audio?

Also (more questions, ACK! sorry) how would I later involve an amp in to this set up (or is it even necessary with this soundcard, just wait to get an amp until I get a good DAC)?
Like so below? (pardon the crappy ASCII image, cant do paint atm)

SC (front stereo green connector)->y splitter->AMP->headphones
_____________________________\--->speaker set
SC (subwoofer channel connector)---->speaker set

and just turn off the speakers when I switch to headphones and the amp?
 
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criccio said:
Yes. And FWIW, if that IS the option you choose, you might as well sell your soundcard as using the digital out whether it be on a $300 dollar soundcard or from the onboard audio on your motherboard, its an IDENTICAL signal. This wasn't true a few years ago but it is now. Especially with the new Realtek ALC chipsets.
Click to expand...

Except that the onboard sound won't do DDL, right? So if you wanted to only hook up via SPDIF but still play games, you'd need to use the soundcard for DDL, correct? I'm asking because I've never investigated what current onboard sound chips can do, since I've always used a discrete soundcard.
 
Forceman said:
Except that the onboard sound won't do DDL, right? So if you wanted to only hook up via SPDIF but still play games, you'd need to use the soundcard for DDL, correct? I'm asking because I've never investigated what current onboard sound chips can do, since I've always used a discrete soundcard.
Click to expand...

The ALC888 (onboard) which is what he probably has does NOT to DDL/DTS-C, but at the same time neither does his current X-Fi Xtreme Music. The Realtek ALC889 however DOES do DTS-C (DTS version of DDL).
 
Forceman said:
So if you wanted to only hook up via SPDIF but still play games, you'd need to use the soundcard for DDL, correct?
Click to expand...
Only for 5.1. If you're using a stereo speakers, a 2.1 system (comprising of two front speakers and a subwoofer) or headphones, you don't need DDL or DTS Connect.

The basic way to think of this is that S/PDIF gives you two unencoded channels or six encoded channels with DDL or DTS Connect. If you don't have a specific need to output to more than two channels, then neither DDL nor DTS Connect are required. Your sound card/onboard codec will spit out the 'raw' stereo bitstream over S/PDIF without any coding.
 
phide said:
Only for 5.1. If you're using a stereo speakers, a 2.1 system (comprising of two front speakers and a subwoofer) or headphones, you don't need DDL or DTS Connect
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be terribly happy about using those for 5.1 anyway - it works by employing lossy compression. &*#@ that.
 
Could anyone answer my few questions above in my last post?

And in reference to my Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music, yes, it does do DDL and DTS, I bought and activated the license from the Creative website.
 
phide said:
Movie soundtracks are already encoded.
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5.1 on DVD, yes. Always, no.

Assuming here that you mean "encoded lossily" as otherwise you're saying "all digital audio is encoded" which says nothing at all.

criccio said:
I think that's what he meant.

Regardless, we where specifically talking about DDL for gaming.
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For gaming alone, yes, there rarely exists source of adequate quality for it to matter much. I would love to see exceptions - audio is a powerful yet usually neglected tool in creating games. Of course, many computers are not used for only one application either.

Anyway, it's there. I'd avoid it just to avoid needing to care entirely. Other people, no.
 
veritas7 said:
Well, I only have the back panel to plug it in... I'm at work, but if I remembered right, there's no AC97/front panel audio hookup on the actual sound card, so I'm SOL for hooking it up to the front (and my rig is on the floor).
Click to expand...

FP audio connections tend to be poor quality / noisy anyway. Consider it a mixed blessing.

veritas7 said:
Edit: How then can I use my mic AND S/PDIF out (when it comes time)? Or is it possible to remap the connectors? :\ Obviously it's not a concern now... but maybe later when I get a nice DAC... or would that SC->S/PDIF internal connector->mobo->S/PDIF optical out work as a solution to keep both my mic and audio?
Click to expand...

I've never run into this being a problem. Why do you anticipate it becoming one?

veritas7 said:
Also (more questions, ACK! sorry) how would I later involve an amp in to this set up (or is it even necessary with this soundcard, just wait to get an amp until I get a good DAC)?
Click to expand...

It should have a "line out" connection. Run that to the amp. Use an adapter if necessary (you will probably need a 1/8" TRS to 2x RCA cable or adapter).

veritas7 said:
and just turn off the speakers when I switch to headphones and the amp?
Click to expand...

Ideally you want to avoid running both at once. You could get a cheap switch, you could jack swap...if you get a stereo DAC, even just something cheap like an EMU 0202 USB, you would have two addressable audio output devices for the computer, and you could tell it to use one or the other easily in software alone.
 
ashmedai said:
5.1 on DVD, yes. Always, no.
Click to expand...
Just out of curiosity, in what scenario would you not have DD/DTS encoded bitstreams with your movies? Unless you have some rips with multichannel AAC or Ogg Vorbis audio streams, in which case they would be lossily coded already.

ashmedai said:
Assuming here that you mean "encoded lossily" as otherwise you're saying "all digital audio is encoded" which says nothing at all.
Click to expand...
I thought what I said was pretty unambiguous.
 
phide said:
Just out of curiosity, in what scenario would you not have DD/DTS encoded bitstreams with your movies? Unless you have some rips with multichannel AAC or Ogg Vorbis audio streams, in which case they would be lossily coded already.
Click to expand...

DVDs can use stereo PCM, but rarely do. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD can use a lot of things. For DVDs, it's usually high-bitrate lossy encoding.

If your source is already in X, transferring it as-is doesn't introduce problems. Shoehorning it into Y in order to get it over an S/PDIF cable, now that could be problematic. But as I said, I just like to avoid potential issues that way I don't have to care what their magnitude could be. Therefore I prefer to send surround as analog if there are not other mitigating factors (e.g. exceptionally high noise environment, exceptionally long runs).
 
Does anyone know then how to...

Use digital out in conjunction with my mic? Would routing the audio (after it processes EAX) to my mobo's Realtek SPDIF optical out work? So I could use later a digital receiver AND a mic?

How would I go upon switching between headphones and speakers? I'm currently using crap speakers and crap headphones, so the sound isn't too affected by plugging my headphones in to the speakers headphone out jack... but when I finally decide to splurge on a decent 2.0/2.1 and headphones, how can I solve this dilemma?

Also, would those switches linked above deteriate sound quality by any chance (if I do analog hookups instead to speakers, which then I can take the main FrontLeft and FrontRight jack hooked up to the switch which goes to both the receiver/speakers and headphones?)

Or should I just get a whole new soundcard.... (considering I bought this off my pal for pretty cheap... he prob had the same issue lol)

EDIT: Would using MIC IN on my onboard/Realtek while I could use the digital-analog out/EAX processing at the same time? Is that possible both in XP and Win Vista/7? Also, would using then onboard for solely mic reasons (for voice chat and gaming chat) increase my CPU consumption by any chance? And it doesn't really matter, but would the mic sound worse (muffled)?

I'm passionate about gaming but I'd hate to limit my music listening experience in the future (when I save up for really nice headphones and a 2.0/2.1 setup) due to this soundcard... or should I just get a new soundcard?

EDIT2: Get the I/O Drive? While pricey... also adds lots of expansion to the card for future, and make having speakers, mic in, and headphone jacks a lot easier... or would this be all wasted on an inferior card (is Xtreme Music considered "meh"? or still pretty good for a balanced gaming/music card... I'm not planning to go balls to the wall for later expansion, mostly ~130 dollar budget for headphones and probably way later ~300 dollar budget for 2.0/2.1 setup)
http://www.google.com/products/cata...utf-8&hl=en&cid=721302090100952498&sa=title#p
OR what other sound card could do still EAX 5.0 and be headphone/2.1/digital out compat?

Sorry for the plethora of questions and problems, but this thread sorta got derailed with the DDL/DTS info...
 
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I could swear I saw the S/PDIF + microphone thing recently. I use the two in combination all the time and have never heard of them interfering. I suppose it's possible for a card to be built such that they wouldn't work at the same time, but it would be really silly. More generally, inputs and outputs tend to be completely separate unless the jacks are being recycled (some motherboards have only three analog jacks and use the mic in and the line out for surround outs in surround output mode). The operating system should be irrelevant beyond affecting whether or not your audio drivers work.

To switch, it depends on your equipment. I used to just jack swap. A receiver gives you a lot of I/O switching options, but there are also simple switches that should work okay (i.e. better than speaker passthrough in many cases). You could have two sound cards if you wanted, then you could do something like have Crysis go to your speakers and Foobar go to your headphones. Avoid: hooking both up off a splitter constantly (mixed levels = bad, can do interesting things to the circuit layout), front panel audio jacks (noise source), speaker passthrough jacks (noise source).

Questions:

Do you want surround speakers? How badly? Cost can go up quickly here since 5.1 --> six speakers + amplification + DAC / decoding stage. Quality is consequently lower for the budget than headphones / stereo speakers.

What is your expected time distribution (%) between headphones and speakers? You should allocate budget accordingly. Keep in mind that headphones will pretty much always be superior at a given budget.

What is your near-term budget? How important is upgradability to you?

Are you willing - and patient enough - to try buying used?

Going off $130 for headphones and $300 for stereo speakers, I would start with Audio Technica ATH-AD700 headphones. Speakers are a bit more complicated - Audioengine A5s would give you the best active satellites possible for the budget, but you could probably get ELT525Ms plus a Gizmo amp for the same money, or M-Audio AV40 active satellites plus a solid subwoofer. Priorities are a huge factor for speakers starting around $300 (active? passive + amp? active + subwoofer?), while the AD700s are an easy choice for headphones at $130ish (very good sound quality for the budget, no amp requirement).
 
After sleeping, I found my head more clear and understanding.

I plan to first buy a receiver, which then I can use the digital I/O out on the card, and use the mic in on my onboard sound card set as my recording device in the Sound options.

(FYI ashmedai, on my Creative Xtreme Music, the Line In / Mic / Digital I/O share the same port on the back of the sound card, so technically you can't use the mic and digital i/o at the same time on the card)
Then, with this receiver I have, I could possibly have speaker output, a headphone jack, and also then be able to switch inputs (between computer audio 2.1 and my PS3 I have hooked up to my monitor).

I guess I'll put my budget for a receiver at ~$250. This will obviously put off my speaker setup, which I will always have at 2.1... I don't like 5.1/7.1 just because 1) its a hassle to set up, with wires 2) I will still be moving within the next 3-5 years, I am still a student/intern.

Next time I just need to sleep on these things, my mind just figures things out on its own.
 
If you're using stereo, it really doesn't matter what is providing the digital out. Does your motherboard have one? You could also get around it by using a USB microphone.
 
Thanks for the link Alai.

I'll probably make another thread eventually for pricing out options for a receiver and headphones, and an amp if I decide to pull some overtime these coming weeks.

I finally got my ducks in a row about my issues with input/output.

And nowadays, even if I upgrade, most motherboards have onboard sound that will suffice for my microphone. <3 my Zalman clip, it's very crisp and clear.
 
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