Help me downgrade to quality stereo

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EndersShadow

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
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I have a very interesting problem. I am trying to go from 5.1 down to 2.0 (will add a sub for 2.1 later). As such I need help. This is also on AVSFORUM for those of you who frequent both (like I do :))

Right now I am using a Denon 1610 to power a set of Infinity Studio Monitor 185’s and Primus P162’s for my computer. I have an internal blu-ray player that passes HDMI audio out via an ATI 5450 to the Denon 1610 and from there to a HP 2509m 25” LCD connected via HDMI. I site very close to these (~3ft) for near field listening while on the computer.

I have come to realize I will probably never use this as a secondary Home Theater system and as such would like to move from a mediocre 5.1 receiver setup to a good stereo setup separating the video and audio from one another. I am looking to see what improvements you would make to my system.

I currently can run the audio from my computer via either the HDMI 5450 or via the built in audio connections (Asus P5E motherboards add on card). I know there are better soundcards out there but don’t know if that would make a difference for me, but I am pretty sure a dedicated stereo amp would make the biggest difference to my current configuration sound wise. I am well aware the Denon’s rated 75 wpc is not what the speakers are truly getting. So here is what I am looking for, a decent amp to power one of my current 2 sets of speakers. I also need a method to take the audio I am sending from the computer to it with little to no loss in quality, as well as adjust/eq/control volume

I have seen many folks recommend the Beheringer A500 amp and am wondering if this would work for my speakers or overpower them. As I said I have 2 sets of speakers so I can use this amp to drive whichever of them is the better set (Primus 162’s or Studio Monitor 185’s) and sell the other set. My initial thought is that the 185’s w/ their 8” woofer would be the set to keep as with enough amplification they should almost negate the need for a sub (which I will be adding at a later date anyway).

So let’s get started w/ the recommendations. I would like to keep this as budget minded as possible but since I will be selling off the Denon 1610 and one set of speakers can probably afford ~300ish dollars for the entire setup.

I would like to keep the speakers I have now rather than sell them for something new, but am willing to consider that possiblity. One of the front running replacement speakers for that would be the Behringer Truth B2030P, or Behringer B2031P. I am also looking for something more powerful than the TCA Gizmo and am not interested in powered Monitors as I would like the option of switching speakers as I go so Passives is what I would like to stay with.

So help me downgrade!
 
http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/swan-m200mkii/products_id/80

Swan MkII

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/swan-m200mkiii/products_id/121

Swan MKIII

whichever suits your wallet both sounds extremely good and u wont need an amp since these are active speakers.

i do suggest getting a good sound card like the M-audio 2496 sound card (it only supports stereo but it sounds really good from what i hear). onboard sound does not justify the sound quality these speakers produce :D

the only difference between these two is that the MkIII has a better amp and low frequency driver so it can hit lower notes than the MkII.
 
EndersShadow said:
I am also looking for something more powerful than the TCA Gizmo and am not interested in powered Monitors as I would like the option of switching speakers as I go so Passives is what I would like to stay with.
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dinlee23 said:
i do suggest getting a good sound card like the M-audio 2496 sound card (it only supports stereo but it sounds really good from what i hear). onboard sound does not justify the sound quality these speakers produce :D
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Appreciate the soundcard link, that is kinda what I posted this here for. I need to ensure that I send out a good signal otherwise whats the point.

Regarding your speaker choices, see section from my original post. Not really interested in powered monitors. I know they are good quality speakers, but I am more interested in passives since the market is much larger both in new and used and I tend to like to upgrade as I go.

Also I will be adding a PSW125 sub to the mix eventually and the 8" woofers in the 185's should suffice until then. Right now I just need suggestions on a good integrated or seperate stereo amp and a computer soundcard (if I even need it)
 
You should just put all your money into speakers at this point to maximize your benefit. That Denon receiver should have no problem meeting 75W x 2. Also this is a desk setup and I doubt you will be using much power at all unless you play music loudly.

Most of the time people listen at around 75dB which probably draws something like 200 milliwatts--sustained listening above 80dB is destructive to your hearing. Very few people can stand listening above this level. You have plenty of headroom to avoid clipping unless you plan on listening to Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture (35dB dynamic range) on a regular basis. In which case I don't think any 2-channel power amp that weighs less than 70 lbs is going to meet your needs.

As far as pro amps, I would avoid them. They substitute fans for heatsinks which to me, adds an unacceptable increase in noise level especially in a small environment.
 
Ok, if it was me I'd probably keep the denon and the 5450 hdmi out. That way the denon is your dac rather than some iffy onboard sound card. $300 is not much to work with.

I will personally not buy anything Behringer again new. You're welcome to decide for yourself if the truths are junk or not, but make sure you listen to them before buying.

#1 speakers I want to try are Arx A1's. The old Acculines that they're an evolution of used BG Neo 3's which are great sounding ribbon tweeters. The new planar tweeters are supposedly even better. They run about $250. With the swans you're paying a lot for the enclosure, with the Arx you get a black box made out of wood :) HiVi drivers in the swans are decent, but meh not for what they charge. The enclosure itself is pretty but nothing special that's going to elicit significantly better sound out of those drivers than any other use of them.

The PSB Image B4's might be better if you plan on adding a sub later.

If you were absolutely forced buy an external amp, I'd say buy a Topping TP20 mk2 off ebay. It's chinese, cheap ($50-70), decently made, and the TA2020 chip is clean. I have one and I use a cheap 12v 3a smps adapter, but I may switch to a meanwell eventually. It puts out like 15 watts. You're not going to use more than that nearfield unless you buy really inefficient speakers. If you buy an external amp without a preamp/dac, you're stuck with your onboard soundcard's DAC and that might suck.
 
I guess my first thought was that due to the lack of dynamics when listening to movies/music that I should improve that source before I go with the speakers.

As stated they are pretty efficient speakers (185's can take 4 ohm loads) but they seriously lack any bass or mid. I have everything set to Stereo on the Denon and all speakers set to Large. I don’t believe I have any Dynamic Range settings on of any sort. Should I start looking again at the receiver settings?

I only ask about an external amp as I recently added one to my main home theater and it drastically improved the dynamics of the speakers I had. Those speakers (Polk Monitor series) where just as efficient as the 162’s so I assumed they would also benefit from a dedicated source.

I am not really wanting to upgrade the speakers, but thought I should start @ the receiver/computer source and work out to them. Am I going about this wrong? Don’t get me wrong I like the way the Primus sound, I just figured if they got more/better dedicated current that would make a difference.
 
EndersShadow said:
Right now I just need suggestions on a good integrated or seperate stereo amp and a computer soundcard (if I even need it)
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http://cgi.ebay.com/MKIII-Tripath-TA2020-PCB-25watt-Class-T-amplifier-SET-/250671560031

this is supposed to be a really good amp for stereo speakers but idk how you would connect that lol...

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-383

i think this would fit your needs for a dedicated stereo amp. they sound good and are reliable just plug and play and enjoy your music
 
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EndersShadow said:
I guess my first thought was that due to the lack of dynamics when listening to movies/music that I should improve that source before I go with the speakers.

As stated they are pretty efficient speakers (185's can take 4 ohm loads) but they seriously lack any bass or mid. I have everything set to Stereo on the Denon and all speakers set to Large. I don’t believe I have any Dynamic Range settings on of any sort. Should I start looking again at the receiver settings?

I only ask about an external amp as I recently added one to my main home theater and it drastically improved the dynamics of the speakers I had. Those speakers (Polk Monitor series) where just as efficient as the 162’s so I assumed they would also benefit from a dedicated source.

I am not really wanting to upgrade the speakers, but thought I should start @ the receiver/computer source and work out to them. Am I going about this wrong? Don’t get me wrong I like the way the Primus sound, I just figured if they got more/better dedicated current that would make a difference.
Click to expand...

I went from ~100w x 2 to 18w x 2 on a set of 89db transmission line floorstanders in my room and I don't really notice much of a difference. The 18w x 2 sounds better at normal listening volumes to my ears. It may be something in the amplification chain that's cleaner giving you better sound. Bass extension is tricky. I have one amp that benefits from inductor upgrades in the output section which supposedly increases bass response.

I had a set of Infinity Kappas in my old car and all the Infinity stuff I can remember was really bright. Can you try connecting them to your home theater setup to see if they benefit? They may just be bass shy by nature. You could also try decouple them from the desk. They may be losing energy.
 
EndersShadow said:
I guess my first thought was that due to the lack of dynamics when listening to movies/music that I should improve that source before I go with the speakers.

As stated they are pretty efficient speakers (185's can take 4 ohm loads) but they seriously lack any bass or mid. I have everything set to Stereo on the Denon and all speakers set to Large. I don’t believe I have any Dynamic Range settings on of any sort. Should I start looking again at the receiver settings?
Click to expand...

A bigger amp is not going to change the fixed performance aspects of your speakers, though. Power handling, compression limits, etc. Also having more current increases dynamics of typically high-mass drivers with large voice coils--this is usually apparent in high-end "decor" designs that use smaller, long-throw woofers (longer voice coils) to make up for lack of surface radiating area. With a typical small bookshelf like the Infinity's with high efficiency and 1" voice coils, more current will have limited gains.

Dynamic Range settings on your receiver compresses dynamic range, it does not improve them, btw.
 
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InternationalHat said:
I went from ~100w x 2 to 18w x 2 on a set of 89db transmission line floorstanders in my room and I don't really notice much of a difference. The 18w x 2 sounds better at normal listening volumes to my ears. It may be something in the amplification chain that's cleaner giving you better sound. Bass extension is tricky. I have one amp that benefits from inductor upgrades in the output section which supposedly increases bass response.

I had a set of Infinity Kappas in my old car and all the Infinity stuff I can remember was really bright. Can you try connecting them to your home theater setup to see if they benefit? They may just be bass shy by nature. You could also try decouple them from the desk. They may be losing energy.
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My next step was to connect them downstairs and see what happens. I also attempted to decouple them from the desk by putting some of those little rubber feet you get with speakers (these are all from the Polk Monitor series) on the bottom to do just that. However as each of the Infinity 185's weigh in at around 30 lbs they might not be able to handle the weight. If they sound better downstairs I might invest in a nice set of Auralex MOPAD Monitor Isolation. Beyond that I dont know if there is much more I can do.

jakeshields said:
Dynamic Range settings on your receiver compresses dynamic range, it does not improve them, btw.
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I was aware that it compressed the range which is why I made note of the fact it is not on, in case someone was to suggest I check that.
 
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I'd use your current speaker/reciever setup and get an HT Omega Halo with RCA outputs and output analog to the reciever
 
Your receiver is fine. The speakers you mentioned earlier would be more of a lateral change, not an upgrade.

Maybe you have defective speakers though since I've heard nothing but good things about the p162s.
 
Turns out I really just had to hammer the volume. The highs sound good at low volume, but they really need lots of power to get the bass (as in almost at -0db).

I think I will just stay w/ them as eventually I will be adding a Polk PSW125 to the mix when I upgrade my main theater system.

If I do anything it will probably be what is recommended below.

OldSchool said:
I'd use your current speaker/reciever setup and get an HT Omega Halo with RCA outputs and output analog to the reciever
Click to expand...
 
your 5450 should be able to bit stream HD audio to the receiver, so provided you get a receiver that can decode HD audio you shouldn't need a sound card. Bit streaming sends the audio as is down the HDMI link to the receiver and lets the receiver do the decoding, so no processing is done on the computer, thus you don't need a "good" sound card as you won't benefit from any increased audio processing quality on that front. Given you want stereo, you'll just need to make sure your Receiver can decode all of your material.
Put all your budget into the receiver and speakers. I won't make recommendations on this as speakers are personal.
 
Today I did a little test (while wearing some foam ear plugs plus under some heavy MSA ear muffs, and a hoodie on for good measure).

Putting my receiver on 0dBFS, on my belkin pf60 meter it showed my icepower amp put up an average volume level of 1.1 amps on 118.7V (or 65 watts/channel) and with peaks of 1.6amps (95W/channel). Idle power is minimal in this design so I will just assume this is the actual output power. This was while playing some pop music (Sweetbox).

I played some Overture 1812 and it had some short transient peaks at 2.6 amps (or 130 watts/channel), with an average (sustained) volume level at 1.5A during the last 30 seconds of the song (89W/channel sustained).

This was about as high as I could turn up before I thought I was going to die. Based on a simple online SPL calculator the average volume level must have been around 108dB+. My chest hurt for several minutes. This was listening at about 2.5 meters (8 feet) in my computer room.

Isn't that what you are using it for--computer speakers? How far were you sitting from your speakers? My speakers have an average sensitivity of 86.4dB so while they aren't extremely insensitive, I still feel like 60W/channel was enough to make me go deaf if I didn't have all that ear protection.

Your Denon receiver should have no problems hitting its advertised 75W into 2 channels. Looking at the back of your receiver, it's rated at 4.3A under FTC guidelines. Most receivers will idle around 1.1-1.3A. That means the power supply should put out a maximum of ~360W @ 1KHz from the wall. Let's assume (worst case scenario) 50% efficiency. That means your receiver should be able to hit 90W/channel @ 1KHz. So the 20 Hz - 20 KHz rating of 75W by Denon shouldn't be far off.
 
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