Help Building ULTRA320 SCSI RAID...

[sdattilo]

I have picked up 2 36.4GB 15000RPM Wide Ultra320 SCSI drives from a Server that was just replaced. They are labled as HP Model BF03688284 and are in the sliding cage. They are also Labled SCSI LVD/SE and are 80pin on the back.

I have built my last 6 or 7 machines myself at home just for basic gaming use. My current set up basics are:

A8N-SLI Premium
4200 + X2 AMD
EVGA 7800GT
4x512MB for 2GB memory.
Antec Neo 380Watt Power Supply.

So I am clueless when it comes to SCSI.

My Goal would be to set up these two drives in a Raid for my gaming system. Mostly I have the drives so I want to try it. It may not give better performance for a normal home use gaming rig, but it is more the challenge of getting it all to work.

My biggest unknowns that I have are:

-Can I get a PCI or PCI Express card that will be the SCSI Raid Controller?
-Will this card provide power to the Drives, they dont have power connecters on the back and in rummiging through the forums it looks like the 80pin connection brings it in.
-Will I need to buy a cage like this: SCSI eBay Cage
- Will i need some special cables to go from 80 pin to a different pin size?
- Power, Are my power requirements about to get well beyond the means of my power supply?

Wow... looks like I really have no clue, but I just dont want to start buying parts and cables without checking here first.

My case has plenty of cooling and noise is really not a factor. Again this is more of a "just want to tinker with it" project since I already have the drives.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[UICompE02]

-Can I get a PCI or PCI Express card that will be the SCSI Raid Controller?

Yes, this will be required. If you are only creating a two drive volume (RAID 1 or 0), you can get a fairly low-end card that supports those RAID levels. A controller that supports hardware RAID 5 is going to be very expensive, even used.

For example, the LSI 21320-R will provide hardware RAID 1 and 0, and runs about $150 new (it's a PCI/PCI-X card). I'm sure you could find a better deal on eBay.

-Will this card provide power to the Drives, they dont have power connecters on the back and in rummiging through the forums it looks like the 80pin connection brings it in.
-Will I need to buy a cage like this: SCSI eBay Cage
- Will i need some special cables to go from 80 pin to a different pin size?

The 80-pin connecter does include power. The controller will not supply it, as there is no such thing as an 80-pin cable. These connecters are known as SCA and include the data lines, power, and target ID selection. They are intended for use in an enclosure or backplane. You can, however, get an 80-68 pin converter that includes a standard molex-type four pin power connector and a set of jumpers for the target ID. Make sure it's rated for Ultra-320, though. And as you're hooking this all up, don't forget the golden rule of SCSI: Make sure both ends of the bus are properly terminated.

- Power, Are my power requirements about to get well beyond the means of my power supply?

Not sure about that. It depends on what kind of power draw the drives have, I can't find information for your specific models. It also depends on what other hardware you have in your system. Does your video card draw a lot of power, do you have a lot of other hard drives, etc.

 

[Vertigo Acid]

Those are relabled [size=-1]Seagate ST336754LC, FYI. You'll find a lot more information about them that way.
[/size]

 

[sdattilo]

So, for controller cards I see the very expensive PCI Express Scsi adapters, (like LSI00008 PCI Express ) which appears to do much more than I need, and then there is the LSI21320B PCI-X Which just will do a my couple of drives in a RAID 0 for me.
The PCI-X card will work in the regular PCI slot of the ASUS board.

I guess I am trying to figure out what the difference will be on the performance end from the two cards with just the 2 disks in a RAID 0

Thanks

 

[Frank DC]

Since nobody's mentioned it yet, Win2K and XP Pro support software RAID0. If you have either flavor of Windows you can create an array without a hardware RAID controller... The only limitation is that the array cannot be used for a Windows system or boot volume. If you can use software RAID0, all you need is a basic Adaptec 29160 PCI card (these go for pretty cheap on eBay). Also look for two 80-to-68 pin SCA converters on eBay. These also go for real cheap. Then just get a standard 68-pin Ultra320 or Ultra160 cable. Make sure the cable is terminated.

As for bandwidth, you do NOT need PCI-e. The older PCI bus is fast enough. It's limited to 133MB/s, which you'll never hit with just two of those drives.

 

[ribs1]

Since nobody's mentioned it yet, Win2K and XP Pro support software RAID0. If you have either flavor of Windows you can create an array without a hardware RAID controller... The only limitation is that the array cannot be used for a Windows system or boot volume. If you can use software RAID0, all you need is a basic Adaptec 29160 PCI card (these go for pretty cheap on eBay). Also look for two 80-to-68 pin SCA converters on eBay. These also go for real cheap. Then just get a standard 68-pin Ultra320 or Ultra160 cable. Make sure the cable is terminated.

As for bandwidth, you do NOT need PCI-e. The older PCI bus is fast enough. It's limited to 133MB/s, which you'll never hit with just two of those drives.

Adaptec 29160 card is Ultra160 SCSI. It will work with Ultra 320 but it would bottleneck his drives. Also you can get a cheap ultra 320 raid card that will do raid 0,1 for around the same price as the adaptec 29160.
ribs

 

[Frank DC]

Adaptec 29160 card is Ultra160 SCSI. It will work with Ultra 320 but it would bottleneck his drives.

No it won't, for two reasons:

1. The two 15K drives he has are not capable of pushing more than 160MB/s, RAID0 or otherwise, and

2. Since his PCI slots are 32bit/33MHz (at least I'm assuming), they're limited to 133MB/s. An Ultra320 controller won't buy him anything unless he moves to PCI-e, which there's no point in doing anyway because of reason #1 above.

> Also you can get a cheap ultra 320 raid card that will do raid 0,1 for around the same price as the adaptec 29160.

Ultra320 Hardware RAID? Don't think so. 29160's go for $20-25 on eBay. 39320R's go for 3-4x as much, sometimes more.

 

[UICompE02]

So, for controller cards I see the very expensive PCI Express Scsi adapters, (like LSI00008 PCI Express ) which appears to do much more than I need, and then there is the LSI21320B PCI-X Which just will do a my couple of drives in a RAID 0 for me.
The PCI-X card will work in the regular PCI slot of the ASUS board.

I guess I am trying to figure out what the difference will be on the performance end from the two cards with just the 2 disks in a RAID 0

Thanks

Actually, for those two controllers, in RAID 0, there would be little difference in performance. Both of them use an LSI 53C1030 SCSI controller chip, which only has a native PCI-X interface. The LSI00008 controller puts the 1030 behind a PCI-E to PCI-X bridge (but also has an intelligent IOP for running RAID firmware). The on-board cache of the LSI00008 might help a bit, but most likely not enough to justify the difference in cost for your intended usage.

 

[Vertigo Acid]

Figure $35-40 for a 29160, $30-35 for an LSIU160

 

[ribs1]

No it won't, for two reasons:

1. The two 15K drives he has are not capable of pushing more than 160MB/s, RAID0 or otherwise, and

2. Since his PCI slots are 32bit/33MHz (at least I'm assuming), they're limited to 133MB/s. An Ultra320 controller won't buy him anything unless he moves to PCI-e, which there's no point in doing anyway because of reason #1 above.

> Also you can get a cheap ultra 320 raid card that will do raid 0,1 for around the same price as the adaptec 29160.

Ultra320 Hardware RAID? Don't think so. 29160's go for $20-25 on eBay. 39320R's go for 3-4x as much, sometimes more.

I stand corrected. I was mostly speculation.
Sorry
ribs

 

[sdattilo]

Thanks for the help so far gang.

I picked up a used LSI21230 and and am waiting for that to come in. I also ordered this SCSI Cage . I am waiting for it to come in to see exactly what the ass end of it looks like so I know if I need to still get some SCA 80 to 60 pin Adapter U320 for the back of them, or if it is built into the cage.

One other small assumption / question for purchasing parts... I am assuming that I am going to need 2 seperate 68 pin U320 cables. one for each drive and each connection on the card. It looks like most cables come 4 or 5 connections, but will it matter if I use 1 cable or 2?

Once every thing shows up I am sure I will be posting some more questions.

Thanks...

 

[Vertigo Acid]

I picked up a used LSI21230 and and am waiting for that to come in. I also ordered this SCSI Cage . I am waiting for it to come in to see exactly what the ass end of it looks like so I know if I need to still get some SCA 80 to 60 pin Adapter U320 for the back of them, or if it is built into the cage.

Since you bought a cage you won't need an SCA adapter

One other small assumption / question for purchasing parts... I am assuming that I am going to need 2 seperate 68 pin U320 cables. one for each drive and each connection on the card. It looks like most cables come 4 or 5 connections, but will it matter if I use 1 cable or 2?

You don't need two cables; you need one cable with at least 3 connectors on it:
1 LSI Card
2 Cage
3 Terminator

 

[sdattilo]

You don't need two cables; you need one cable with at least 4 connectors on it:

Great!.. not knowing SCSI, I didnt know if I would get better performance on two cables to the two connecters on the card, or just on cable to 1 connecter.

Now its the waiting for all the parts that is killin....

 

[Frank DC]

Since you bought a cage you won't need an SCA adapter
You don't need two cables; you need one cable with at least 4 connectors on it:
1 LSI Card
2 HD
3 HD
4 Terminator

Two possible problems with this cage:

1. It's got an Ultra2 backplane (you'll be limited to 80MB/s total)

2. Most cages are attached to motherboards with proprietary cabling, and attached to systems with proprietary mounts.

Also note the mention of "no trays or cables included". At a minimum you'll need two trays, and possibly cabling as well.

If this doesn't pan out, just get two SCA converters and use standard mounts in a PC case.

 

[Vertigo Acid]

1. It's got an Ultra2 backplane (you'll be limited to 80MB/s total)

2. Most cages are attached to motherboards with proprietary cabling, and attached to systems with proprietary mounts.

Heh. That's what I get for not even clicking the links. Post ammended

 

[sdattilo]

i figured for around $10 i would see what th cage offered. My question then is, at 80MB/s through the cage, is that going to be the bottleneck? or is using the card in a regular pci slot on the asus board?

I figured i would get it all set up first and see if i could get it to work. After that I thought I might move into a HotSwappable enlcosure like This MR-131CB to clean up the case a little. but i was going to make sure all worked first.

The whole thought of some 15K RPM drives in a RAID 0 seemed like a nice boot up, game playing set up. And since the drives were pretty much free I will give it a whirl. (I guess the bigger question is if I should have just invested in a couple of Raptors and set them up in a RAID off the motherboard and if that would have been faster... Who knows... I'll run some benchmarkes on my single Samsung drive, then on these 15k SCSI's and then maybe I'll give some Raptors a try) AHH That's why I love this sh!#. Some many things to try... so many distractions from doing work around the house. LOL

 

[Frank DC]

i figured for around $10 i would see what th cage offered. My question then is, at 80MB/s through the cage, is that going to be the bottleneck? or is using the card in a regular pci slot on the asus board?

I figured i would get it all set up first and see if i could get it to work. After that I thought I might move into a HotSwappable enlcosure like This MR-131CB to clean up the case a little. but i was going to make sure all worked first.

The whole thought of some 15K RPM drives in a RAID 0 seemed like a nice boot up, game playing set up. And since the drives were pretty much free I will give it a whirl. (I guess the bigger question is if I should have just invested in a couple of Raptors and set them up in a RAID off the motherboard and if that would have been faster... Who knows... I'll run some benchmarkes on my single Samsung drive, then on these 15k SCSI's and then maybe I'll give some Raptors a try) AHH That's why I love this sh!#. Some many things to try... so many distractions from doing work around the house. LOL

The answer to your first question is yes, and the second is no. I looked at exact specs for your drives, and they can push a max of ~90MB/s each on their outermost cylinders. Two of them in RAID0 will add another 40-50% to that. So the Ultra2 cage at 80MB/s will definitely be a bottleneck, but the 133MB/s PCI bus will either be only a very slight bottleneck or none at all.

 

[sdattilo]

Allright... So I have all my parts here or coming in. Now maybe a couple of unrelated questions to this forum, but...

1. Powersupply: I have an ANTEC Neo430 that has seemed ok on one drive. However on my last build with 4 raptors I had issues I tracked back to it so I am a little worried about it with the SCSI drives and leaving my current Samsung spinpoint in there along with the 7800GT card. I am a firm believer that saving $50 or so bucks on the power supply when you have over a grand in it is moronic. So I am looking at the PC Power & Cooling 510 and the SeaSonic S12-600 . any thoughts. I don't think I can go wrong with either.

2. Memory... Any detrement on the ASUS board in putting 4 1GB chips in each slot. I seem to have seen pro's and cons both ways. Right now I have 4 512mb chips in it and have read that 2 1gb chips would perform better... but I also have read conflicting info that 4 1GB dimms can be slower.

Thanks again for all the info thus far.

 

[hulksterjoe]

The power supply should be ok.. But like you said you may want a little more.. its more a question of running the power supply at "full power" to push everything all the time or having it run at less then full load, which will also extend its life expectency