Help Building a Special Purpose SFF

[KweezNArt]

Hey, all. I've lurked the board a while, checking out the SFF boards in particular, but am not quite knowledgeable enough to be able to chime in with anything. However, I've had a feverish little idea running around in my brain as of late, and I'm hoping you guys can help me determine if it's doable or not. Accordingly, since this is a build/design advice request thread, let me get the particulars out of the way.

1) The purpose of this build is to be a walkaround, 24x7 AR/Personal Assistance computer. I am planning on purchasing and making use of several accessories to make this computer the backbone for a Johnny Mnemonic-style experience, wherein I have my own little private computing right right in front of my eyes. Accordingly the primary uses for this will be AR/Image Processing and Internet useage. While i'd like to do some data processing locally, if I have to outsource it to the cloud, that would be acceptable as well.

2) Budget: I'd like to spend less than $2,000, if possible. I'm already looking at dropping darn near that much for the headgear on this thing, so while on the one hand money is not really an issue, on the other hand I'd like to not spend any more than I absolutely have to.

3) Location: I live in the US, near a MicroCenter, and work near a Frys. So I got that going for me.

4) What I need for that budget: Mobo (fanless if at all possible), memory, hard drive (SSD or other non-spinning media preferred), graphics card (if it is not possible to get dual monitor on mobo integrated gfx chip, or if that will not have enough cojones). Case not included in price, as it will probably need to be custom (see later entries) unless you happen to know of one that will meet the criteria below.

5) No reused parts. All fresh.

6) Mobo features: fanless, dual independent VGA out (if possible), integrated Wifi/Bluetooth (if possible), at least 4 usb ports, preferably more. NIC, while technically optional, is strongly desired. Onboard sound.

7) Resolution: IIRC, output resolution on the Goggles will be 640x480 for each LCD. So I won't need 720 or 1080. I will need multiple, independent VGA output.

8) Space constraints: Here's where I go off the deep end. My ideal plan is to seal this getup inside a Pelican case, to make it waterproof, drop reistant, and ruggedized. Hence my insistence on fanless, with minimal moving parts. Yes, this means the Mobo heat has nowhere to go. No, I'm not sure how to handle that. So far, all I've come up with is a custom completely passive heatsink that extends out of the case through (caulked) holes, radiating out into fins that become cooled by external airflow. It won't look pretty, but maybe I can get it to not look ugly. Unless someone can come up with a better cooling solution.

9) Modding: I am comfy with modding (in case my previous paragraph didn't make that clear), but don't own many tools ATM. Just the basics: screwdriver, leatherman, a pair of snips somewhere. Am planning on investing in a rotary tool, but don't own one yet.

10) Sound: this rig should be as silent as possible.

11) Mobility: very. Again, it's meant to be carried on person, at all times. The smaller the better, though if it has to hide in a shoulderbag or backpack, I can do that.

12) OS: I can provide my own OS, just not sure if I can do what I want with win7 or if I will have to dust off my Linux chops.

13) Timeframe: probably looking at 3-6 months. As much as I'd love to jump right in on this, I can't just pull this kind of money out of thin air.

So, there you have it. Is this in any way feasible, or would I be better off taking the money I would have spent on this, and blowing it on the same flavor of crack I was smoking that gave me this idea in the first place?

Thanks for any help.

 

[ekuest]

you should make it into a big hat. XD

extending a heat sink out of a pelican case means that the heat sink will be beat to shit in a day or two, if they dont get broken completely off by then. if i was you i think id make a backpack with a hard compartment in the bottom and a hole on either side with fan grills and filters on each. not sure how this whole goggles thing works, but the new gigabyte itx 1155 board has dual HDMI ports onboard if that helps. what will you be using to power it? your post doesnt really mention that anywhere... youre gonna want to figure out how much power you can supply for your required amount of time before recharging, and then your build will have to draw that amount of power or less and then you'll want to maximize your performance while satisfying that power limitation.

looks like a fun idea, i hope it pans out and i'll definitely be following along. whats the point of this? watch too much scifi? or is it necessary for work or something?

 

[Machupo]

Might want to consider milling a plate of Al with ridges and replacing a panel on the pelican case / using JB Weld/caulk to waterproof the edges -- I think heatpipe is the only way you're going to get heat out of that case.

Might want to check out the nanoITX Zacate board that I had posted about a couple days ago (maybe a week) made by Aleutia (don't have the link handy, have to run). Will add more later.

 

[CMadki4]

Might want to consider milling a plate of Al with ridges and replacing a panel on the pelican case / using JB Weld/caulk to waterproof the edges -- I think heatpipe is the only way you're going to get heat out of that case.

My thoughts exactly. A block of T6061 with the ribs machined into, a flange type mount that you could easily bolt and seal to the pelican box, and holes drilled length-wise through the back to accept copper heat pipes. Totally doable. I believe there used to be a big black aluminum ATX case that the whole side panel used this concept and was an entirely passive cooling case.

Honestly, it all sounds totally doable, save for one thing: power supply. For mobile electronics, that is almost always the bottleneck. Batteries powerful enough to meet your demands of power and time are going to be relatively large. Lithium-ion for sure.

 

[KweezNArt]

Thanks for the input so far. Very helpful.

@ekuest -- good point about the HS taking environmental damage. I guess I was living in a fantasy world where I'm not as clumsy as I seem to be in real life, so that was a good point. Not to mention those thin fins are oh-so-delicate. Regarding the "point"? It's just kind of a private pursuit. I seem to have a knack for systems thinking -- getting various things to work well together, and crafting the middleware to make them play nice with each other. And I've been brainstorming on more ubiquitous uses for the SFF boards ever since they first came out. So I saw the Vuzix Wrap 920AR glasses (the most natural looking AR glasses rig I've seen yet), the small size of Mini-ITX boards, and the ability of the Kinect's depth camera to handle hand and finger tracking, and thought "Hey, you could put these together into a pretty sweet, mobile, low-profile, not-horribly-conspicuous natural gesture based AR system. I should try that." The future is now!

@Machupo, cmadki4 -- Thanks for the awesome input. That's exactly what I needed to know; if a full-passive like that would be able to cut it. And it sounds like it might, as long as I don't mind a little custom fabrication. You know any place that does that kind of fabrication work (being that a milling tool is not among the equipment I own at this point)? Or is this the kind of thing I'd need to outsource as custom work to a commercial heatsink provider?

Re: Power -- That's a good point, too. I was planning on trying to make an inconspicuous power-belt rig, eventually. I would have to run it off 12V batteries, rechargeable. Li-Ion is certainly the way to go; I was considering Lithium Polymer batteries. I just got one for my Airsoft AEG, and they're supposed to be pretty righteous if you stick to the rules and don't drain them too far. Not to mention they apparently provide more power in a smaller space for a longer time (this conclusion needs more research, though). I don't know how they hold up as you scale amp-hour duration. If anyone in here is a power guru, and knows how to manage the portability/duration tradeoff, it'd be much obliged.

 

[Blue Fox]

This should get you started: http://store.viatech.com/protected/product/frontProductDetail.action?id=950

 

[ekuest]

if youre still thinking passive/external heat sink, then research every single one you can find. they are not easy to make, and the only casemod i can think of recently that was all passive the guy was having big problems trying to keep it cool. and he had very very low power components. is there a reason it cant have a couple low speed fans? even one intake and one exhaust should be enough. and if you put a grill and a filter on each then you shouldnt get anything falling into your case.

 

[KweezNArt]

This should get you started: http://store.viatech.com/protected/product/frontProductDetail.action?id=950

I like the small size, and undoubtedly it will have low power consumption, but it only has one add-on VGA port, and one native HDMI. Is there any way to convert HDMI to VGA -- and if so, is the GPU going to allow two different image sources to each, or will it attempt to isolate to one?

@Machupo -- That's a pretty cool board -- dual HDMIs pose the same VGA downcasting question, though. Also, the currently available version of the board is running with a fan; while this is less than ideal, if I can't go completely fanless, I'll keep it in mind.

@ekuest -- The reason I would like to keep it fanless is because I would like the core box to be as waterproof and ruggedized as possible. While grates and filters will keep out a lot of dust, I'd like something that will also keep out rain, mud, etc. If this concept works, I've been ruminating on some military-grade applications for it, so I'd like to simulate that as best as possible with a consumer-level budget before having to go through the hassle of drawing up business plans, seeking grant funding, etc. If it's not doable as a fully-ruggedized system at this time, then I'll just have to shelve that part of the specs and focus on crafting the middleware. So if push comes to shove and I have to get rid of it, I will. It'll just mean sacrificing a large chunk of planned functionality and purpose in the short term.

 

[ekuest]

heres a guy who made a fully enclosed case. it really is borderline impossible to do without any holes for air. he went way out of his way to make huge aluminum fins and custom heat pipes, and still had trouble cooling some components. idk if he'll ever even get it to a finished state. and he had pretty low power parts too. it would be awesome to make it fully enclosed, but i just dont think its practical, especially in a SFF where you dont want huge metal fins etc weighing it down and making it bigger.

what IS possible, and i think the only practical solution at all, is to water cool. you can put everything inside the box and water cool it on one loop. cpu, ram, chipset, and gpu if you need one. then run the tubing outside the box, sealing around them, and have your radiator outside the box. if you get low power components and a radiator with large fin spacing, the radiator should be able to run passive. enclose it in a wire mesh or something to protect it, and it doesnt matter at all if it gets wet. if it gets dirty, just hose it off. im thinking if you can get a pelican case, cut a recess in one side, and put the radiator inside that recession, then you should be able to keep it pretty well protected and still transfer heat out of the case.

 

[KweezNArt]

Ouch. Spent a chunk of the day looking over water cooling options. By the time I add all those up, I'm practically paying for a Stealth 500F, Of course, that's only got 1 VGA, and 1 USB, so FFFFUUUUUU--

I'll have to try to find some neat, artistic way of making this work, because the low-key, easy-blend approach is looking like less and less a possibility as I try to cram all that cooling tubing into either a larger case, or having it string out of the case (which invites it to get snagged on stuff and ripped or cut). Might just be time to consider lowering the bar in terms of ruggedness for this pass, in the interests of just getting the civilian concept together.

 

[Blue Fox]

Ouch. Spent a chunk of the day looking over water cooling options. By the time I add all those up, I'm practically paying for a Stealth 500F, Of course, that's only got 1 VGA, and 1 USB, so FFFFUUUUUU--

I'll have to try to find some neat, artistic way of making this work, because the low-key, easy-blend approach is looking like less and less a possibility as I try to cram all that cooling tubing into either a larger case, or having it string out of the case (which invites it to get snagged on stuff and ripped or cut). Might just be time to consider lowering the bar in terms of ruggedness for this pass, in the interests of just getting the civilian concept together.

If you're considering that case, just buy it on its own instead of getting gauged price wise for a complete system: http://www.logicsupply.com/products/gw_01

Might also consider this...it has dual VGA: http://www.logicsupply.com/products/vb8003_16

 

[Rody]

http://www.fit-pc.com/web/

these guys make some of the smallest pc's I know of, I think you can get a duel head splitter for your video out.

 

[ekuest]

If you're considering that case, just buy it on its own instead of getting gauged price wise for a complete system: http://www.logicsupply.com/products/gw_01

Might also consider this...it has dual VGA: http://www.logicsupply.com/products/vb8003_16

http://www.fit-pc.com/web/

these guys make some of the smallest pc's I know of, I think you can get a duel head splitter for your video out.

these both look like much better options than building your own case at this point.

EDIT: are you sure you need 2 VGA ports? it looks like it just plugs into a single vga port, or a single dvi port with an included adapter. also, the one you linked has like spacial awareness and video recording capabilities... whats all that for? you can get the same thing that just plays video for like $250.

 

[KweezNArt]

@Blue Fox -- Awesome. Great find. I will need to talk with them to see if they have any recommendations about how to route the mobo out ports.

@Rody -- Love the price point on these, and the size. Not sure if the splitter will be good enough, or if the glasses need independent dual VGA processors. Will have to ask Vuzix.

@ekuest -- I'm not totally sure, no, but the specifications say "Works with all Windows dual monitor compatible video card, all brands", which leads me to believe they are using two video-outs, one for each eye. As for the motion tracking and cameras, those are needed for the AR (Augmented Reality) to work. The cameras take in the images, the computer processes them, adding whatever information I ask it to, and the displays project them back into my eyes so I can see not just what the cameras see, but also what the computer adds. The motion tracker detects the movement of my body and my head, so that anything I ask the computer to add stays appropriately referenced as I move around.

Google "eyetap", or Youtube "Augmented Reality" for more info.

 

[Machupo]

Atrix + wireless video out would be pretty nice... wonder if the dual core proc could handle vid processing at 2x 640x480 (I take it you want 3-D, hence the dual screens, right?)

 

[KweezNArt]

Atrix + wireless video out would be pretty nice... wonder if the dual core proc could handle vid processing at 2x 640x480 (I take it you want 3-D, hence the dual screens, right?)

You mean the phone (by Motorola)?

And yeah, I'd like 3-D. I'd really like to not have to sacrifice binocular vision to make this getup work.

 

[Machupo]

yeah -- it's got a pretty beefy amount of horsepower, is self-contained, wouldn't look awkward carying it around.

Things to look into, though, are if any phone (even the Atrix) have enough power to push dual VGA video. Then see how that affects battery life, then look into some form of video out.

It really is more elegant than carrying around a pelican case (or at least the case would be a lot smaller), but might not be feasible based upon the horsepower you need. Definitely something to consider, though.

 

[ekuest]

yeah you should find out. vga can push enough pixels to do 2x640x480 easily, so if they wrote the programming right they could send the signal as 1280x480. and in one listing (amazon maybe) it says that you can "simply run it from a laptop" or something like that, and i dont know of any laptops that have dual vga ports.

 

[KweezNArt]

OK, looks like it does only need one VGA out, it uses alternating frame displays (probably parsed by their little magic box) to make the stereo happen. That opens the field somewhat. Though it does mean that whatever board I end up going with, I will need to ensure it's got enough clout to handle 3d-rendering through directx.

I investigated the Atrix, but Motorola has (as they are doing lately) decided to lock it down, which will make custom app development difficult to do. So I think I may end up sticking with a real box, as kludgy as that may make it.

Logic Supply seems to indicate they are friendly to "project work". I will contact them and see exactly how friendly they are.

Thanks for all the guidance so far -- this is looking less and less like a fever dream, and more and more like a possible thing, with every passing day.

 

[jalaj]

It would be very helpful if you can provide drawings of system setup you have in mind.

BTW, to me it sounds a little suspect with what you're trying to do with this rig. =]