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Help a SCSI newb setup his server....

S

superkdogg

Gawd
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
743
Hi all,

Basically as a learning experience, I am building an old, not very good file server on the cheap.

So far I have a Tyan Thunderbolt Dual P3 mobo with two 450 Mhz cpu's OC'd to 504 in it and 512 MB of ram. It's currently using a simple IDE-only setup and everything's peachy.

Now is the SCSI part and the complications:

1. I know absolutely JACK about SCSI :eek:

2. I came across what seemed like a deal on eBay- (5) 9.1 GB 10K Cheetahs (early generation) for $28. So now that they are on the way, I realized that I have no clue how to set up this beast :confused:

The drives are 80 Pin wide-ultra scsi-SE or SCA (seemingly used interchangably in the documentation, but I don't know). The board's onboard SCSI is 68 Pin up to 80 MB/s, so I think that makes it wide-ultra SCSI2 (or not). The drives come complete with the hot-swap carriages and they appear to have some sort of adaptor sticking out the back that looks like and ISA interface (I'm sure it's not, but it has big, wide pins). Anybody know what that's about?

The goal is simply to get all 5 (or four of five if that would be better/easier/cheaper) working as simply as possible. The main problem that I see is getting 5 80 pin drives talking to a 68-pin controller. 80 pin cables are evidently hard to come by and 80-68 pin adapters are more $ than I want to spend on this project. Would it be possible to find and 80 pin cable or two and use only one adaptor on the cable where it attaches to the mobo? So the only 80-68 conversion would be at the SCSI controller as opposed to 5 conversions, one at each drive?

Secondary question: (Warning: This may be a really stupid question) Would it be possible to wire an old AT psu to make an independent power source for the drives? That way I could build a small chassis to contain them and the psu and not take space or power from the current setup. This is not a need, just a "for instance."

Like I said, I don't know much about this (read: nothing) and I'm looking to learn, so please let me know what you all think and offer any suggestions....

T[H]anks!

And the new question is....

Since the SCSI controller on my current mobo does not have raid capability, will I need to get one that does or does the backplane give me that functionality by making all the drives installed "appear" to be one since they all use the same physical connection to the scsi bus?
 
AFAK there is no such animal as a 80 pin cable. (because power is included on the 80 pins)

68-80 pin adaptors should be ~$4 each, and you will need one for each drive, and you will most likely have to remove the drives from their hotswap carrages. (unless you get the whole backplane with them, then you might be able to just hook up the backplane and be done with it, but I doubt it)

==>Lazn
 
I got that same setup a few years ago. 36GB of 10K RPM screaming suicide :D

Just make sure your 80-68 adapters support LVD. A lot of the cheepy's dont and will
force your drives into 40Mb/s (wide) mode.

I had always thought about the AT psu myself but never got around to it. Just an FYI I am running 4 9GB Cheetah's, 2 even older SCSI hdd's, 1 30Gb IDE, dual P3 600 katami's, and a 4200TI off of a 350 watt psu and never had a problem so assuming your setup is comparable you should be good.

One more thing, these arrays are loud and the drives cook so while you may want to toss it in a closet to maintain some sanity, make sure you've got really good ventilation.
 
Thanks for the help, guys. Great info.

What if I grabbed one of these instead of doing all the 80-68 pin conversions and finding a suitable cable:

http://cgi.ebay.com/387090-001-Comp...ryZ56092QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

In case the long-as-all-heck link doesn't work, it's a hot swap cage from a proliant server. That should pretty much solve it, right?

I'm not worried about heat or noise b/c my server is in the basement where it's both cool and there's nobody to hear it scream....

Thanks again! More info from those of you in the know on this stuff would be awesome!
 
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Looks like those drives are full height, 2x as tall as an IDE drive, so you'll need a backplane that will fit them!
 
dirtydr said:
Looks like those drives are full height, 2x as tall as an IDE drive, so you'll need a backplane that will fit them!
Click to expand...
Actually they're "half height", or roughly 1.6". They're roughly as tall as a normal 5.25" bay. A full height 5.25" drive is the size of two 5.25" bays. I don't think I've ever seen a full height 3.5" drive. There aren't many full height devices made these days, though there are still a few tape drives of that size around.
Also, note that those are first generation Cheetahs. They're going to be LOUD, and use a lot of power, particularly during spin-up. Getting an 8 platter drive moving takes a bit of juice. I wouldn't be suprised if they drew 15-20A on the 12V rail during spin up if they're all starting up at once. Read the specs @ www.seagate.com and make sure the PSU can handle it. You'll probably want to set them for delayed spin up so only one will spin up at a time. Hopefully whatever adapters you get will support that.
 
My bad. They are indeed 1/2 height :D Keep that ^ in mind if you do go the BP route.

I have a few... 'classic series' micropolis 9 gig beasts floating around that are 1/2 height as well. Those things just keep on going.
 
Thanks very much for the help. It's looking more and more like a backplane is the way to go. I found this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dell-PowerEdge-...795004727QQcategoryZ56093QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem from Dell. As well as some others. The only hang-up now is that most of the pictures don't show the back. That's a problem for me because I would like to know if it's proprietary power connection or a couple of molex connections.

Any help for this?

Also, if anyone reading this has an old backplane capable of wide ultra2 scsi w/80 pin drives or an enclosure the same for sale -please pm me.
 
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I just did more checking on eBay and there are a lot more options for cages in the Networking section than in the regular Drives/Controllers section. It looks promising in the networking section.

Might anybody with the knowledge be willing to spend a minute or two checking out some of them and making a recommendation for me? I really only need one that supports 1.6" drives (5 preferrably, but 4 would do) and accepts power from a standard molex or two rather than having a proprietary connection.

Like I said, you guys are awesome!
 
I may have some more of the enclosures that you need.

They look like this

I use them at home and they work great, although the older models I usually have are limited to Fast 40 speeds.
 
Those are the older style Compaq hotswap trays.. the backplane from a Proliant 1600 (or similar age compaq P2 server) is what will use those directly without any fiddling. (the enclosure that tdg linked to should work as well)

You can remove the drives from the trays and get adaptors for each one, and that may be the cheaper option.

==>Lazn
 
tdg said:
I may have some more of the enclosures that you need.

They look like this

I use them at home and they work great, although the older models I usually have are limited to Fast 40 speeds.
Click to expand...

His drives are only wide ultra scsi, that is 40mb/s so they are the same age and a perfect match for your enclusures.

==>Lazn
 
Thanks, Lazn.

I am trying hard to find an enclosure or a backplane to avoid having to seek out 5 SCA-68 pin adaptors, molex splitters, and a 5 drive 68 pin scsi cable. That should also work, but for cleanliness I'm trying to go the other way.

I'm thinking that since most servers of this generation are now in parts I can find what I need, I just need to keep looking. If I were interested/able to built a 6 pin power adaptor, I know I could get some Gateway backplanes that would work. Just that they have two grounds, two +12v, and one +5v instead of using a standard molex or two (damn proprietary stuff!).

Hoping to hear that tdg will sell me one of those cheap, but otherwise the search continues...
 
superkdogg said:
Would this work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Compaq-387089-0...794326142QQcategoryZ56089QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Thanks again for dragging this newb into the realm of scsi.
Click to expand...

No, that is from a ML370, I don't know why they say it is from a 1600. I have both ML370 G1's and 1600's (and 350's G2 and G3) in my server room, and that is again the newer style of back plane. (LVD Wide Ultra2)

You want one that is not LVD.

I think this is what you want.. http://cgi.ebay.com/Compaq-Proliant...795145561QQcategoryZ56089QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Edit: here is one already filled with drives: http://cgi.ebay.com/Compaq-Proliant...794051664QQcategoryZ56089QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

So it looks like the cheaper one is what you want.. yay

==>Lazn
 
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I found one, Compaq 3161 rackmountable storage array. Holds up to 7 drives. I've also got lots of SCSI controllers and SCSI RAID cards and the external cables if your interested in a complete setup. Also have a bunch of empty caddies for them, and 9 - 36 GB SCSI disks :)
 
tdg said:
I found one, Compaq 3161 rackmountable storage array. Holds up to 7 drives. I've also got lots of SCSI controllers and SCSI RAID cards and the external cables if your interested in a complete setup. Also have a bunch of empty caddies for them, and 9 - 36 GB SCSI disks :)
Click to expand...

An external rackmount cage like that is what i would want, but if he doesn't have a rack, or wants to put them in his existing case, your external array would be overkill..

hmm 7 x 36GB - 36GB = 216GB of RAID 5.

==>Lazn
 
Whoopsie. Spoke a bit too soon.

One more question that I have is what about termination. The drives don't have a terminator and I am wondering if the cage does that via an interface w/ the scsi bios or what. Keep in mind that as I said, "I don't know JACK about scsi." (But I'm learning...)
 
superkdogg said:
Whoopsie. Spoke a bit too soon.

One more question that I have is what about termination. The drives don't have a terminator and I am wondering if the cage does that via an interface w/ the scsi bios or what. Keep in mind that as I said, "I don't know JACK about scsi." (But I'm learning...)
Click to expand...

Well I don't think you will have to worry about it at all. The drive cage's backplane will do it's own termination, and depending on your SCSI card, you may have to enable termination on it, but I would try it out by just hooking it up first. (edit: the back plane will also assign SCSI ID's too, you literally should just have to connect things together, and not have to set anything.)

==>Lazn
 
There may be termination and ID offset settings on the backplane. Some backplanes are designed to allow >1 backplane on a SCSI channel.
 
One bump for any last ideas from those reading the thread.....

Parts will start arriving anytime now! Wooo the exitement of building w/6-7 year old server technology-Can you feel it?
 
Since the SCSI controller on my current mobo does not have raid capability, will I need to get one that does or does the backplane give me that functionality by making all the drives installed "appear" to be one since they all use the same physical connection to the scsi bus?
Click to expand...

No, the back plane is really nothing but a fancy cable. The drives will show up independantly.

If you want RAID, you will have to either use Software RAID, or buy a hardware RAID controller.

==>Lazn
 
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