..... HEADS UP .....changes comin

[Ice Czar]

well I just read something that might have some bearing on everyones PSU purchasing decisions (thanx sn2op for the linkage )

the boys over at trustedreviews got to go over to Germany and use a Fast Auto FA-828ATE load tester
(very similar to what Intel employs in there cert program, but they use Chroma)

and well in passing they mentioned....

Other additions to newer PSUs includes a 24-pin EPS style power connector, instead of the 20-in ATX power connector. This has been designed for the new Intel Pentium 4 processors, but has been a server and workstation standard for some time. Added to this is a new eight pin 12V connector, which will eventually replace the four pin 12V connector, but this is unlikely to happen for a few months yet. A six pin connector for PCI Express graphics cards should start appearing shortly as well. Some of the power supplies on test came supplied with this six pin connector as a small converter, which would work with pretty much any power supply.

the part in bold, I rushed right over to formfactor.org but there is no sign of the new spec, but it sounds very plausible to me,
basically ATX12V is going to conform to Server System Infrastructure (SSI) EPS12V
at least as far as connectors go
so that might bear on everyones upgrade path (unless you have an EPS12V that is )

1. a good source
2. the PCI-E spec has just increased from 75watts to a maximum of 150watts and if its through the board it has to be powered somehow
3. would consolidate the 2 competing power supply specs

so it makes a whole hell of alot of sense to me
if your considering a PSU upgrade immediately, try to hold off a bit, or play it safe
(an 8 pin will connect to a 4 pin mobo connector with clearence,
its basically a double and are keyed the same, though the clip wont lineup and it would need a spot of hotglue for safety)

I'll continue to research this rumored change and post any updates

 

[tsuehpsyde]

<---- glad his OCZ has like, every upgrade path imagineable on it

 

[Ice Czar]

Im pretty happy about already owning so many EPS12V supplies myself

not that Im planning on any new boxes anytime soon

 

[computerpro3]

glad that pcp&c will take back my psu and upgrade it to the new spec every time for a minimal charge. I should be recieving my 510 deluxe with external pots ---> SLI w 24pin connector tomorrow

 

[GregP24]

glad that pcp&c will take back my psu and upgrade it to the new spec every time for a minimal charge. I should be recieving my 510 deluxe with external pots ---> SLI w 24pin connector tomorrow

They better for the price!

 

[charles555]

NEOPower 480 (& probably lower version) is already spec'd like that. That's why I bought one.

 

[Dr. X]

Wait, PCP&C upgrades psus for a minimal charge?

 

[BossNoodleKaboodle]

Hahaha @ Ultra-X Crapnnect. That should shut up its proponents who stand by it even though its crap.

 

[Hate_Bot]

Ill just stick to my enermax 600Watt

 

[gizmo]

i <3 my NeoPower!

 

[Jasonx82]

Go neo?

 

[computerpro3]

Wait, PCP&C upgrades psus for a minimal charge?

Yup I was glad to learn that; I went to sell my 510 deluxe so i could buy a SLI but someone told me they would do it and they were right.

They are replacing the main pcb with a newer one (they have made updates since I bought mine a year ago), changing the harness to give it the SLI connectors, redoing the "remove OVP on 3.3v line" mod, resleeving the harness (all of it this time, I specifically asked), redoing the external pot on 3ft wire, and adding a 24pin connector for only $50 shipped. I would have lost far more than that were I to sell and buy a new one.

 

[Dr. X]

Yup I was glad to learn that; I went to sell my 510 deluxe so i could buy a SLI but someone told me they would do it and they were right.

They are replacing the main pcb with a newer one (they have made updates since I bought mine a year ago), changing the harness to give it the SLI connectors, redoing the "remove OVP on 3.3v line" mod, resleeving the harness (all of it this time, I specifically asked), redoing the external pot on 3ft wire, and adding a 24pin connector for only $50 shipped. I would have lost far more than that were I to sell and buy a new one.

That's awesome. I'm glad I went with them, definitely a good investment.

 

[Visable-assassin]

glad that pcp&c will take back my psu and upgrade it to the new spec every time for a minimal charge. I should be recieving my 510 deluxe with external pots ---> SLI w 24pin connector tomorrow

Ditto...this bitch is a tank and will be with me a long long time

 

[arentol]

Hahaha @ Ultra-X Crapnnect. That should shut up its proponents who stand by it even though its crap.

Boy, that's completely out of the blue, especially since 10's of millions of other PSU's have been built that also aren't EPS12v compliant. Why pick on X-connects? You may as well have said "Hahaha @ Antec non-EPS12V's" since there are millions of those out there in people's PC's right now, and tons more of them being sold every day.

It's also a pretty stupid comment anyway since only 1 formal test has ever found real problems with the X-connect supplies (which means it may have just been a lemon) and only a couple users on the internet have reported problems. Considering I have a 420 watt Antec PSU that kills harddrives anytime I plug in 3 at once, it looks like Antec is only 1 complaint away from having just as bad a record as X-connects.

The reality is that it has been proven the X-connect is just a normal powersupply, not as good as an Antec (but nobody said there were anyway) or other high-end enthusiast PSU, but not particluarly bad either. Considering it looks better than an Antec of the same price, AND offers modular connections on top of that, it's not a bad PSU unless you are planning on using it to run a seriously OC'ed super-enthusiast PC.

 

[burningrave101]

<---- glad his OCZ has like, every upgrade path imagineable on it

Yea my OCZ PowerStream 520w has the 24-pin connector, PCI-Express connector, 8-pin +12v connector, ect.

 

[BossNoodleKaboodle]

Boy, that's completely out of the blue, especially since 10's of millions of other PSU's have been built that also aren't EPS12v compliant. Why pick on X-connects? You may as well have said "Hahaha @ Antec non-EPS12V's" since there are millions of those out there in people's PC's right now, and tons more of them being sold every day.

It's also a pretty stupid comment anyway since only 1 formal test has ever found real problems with the X-connect supplies (which means it may have just been a lemon) and only a couple users on the internet have reported problems. Considering I have a 420 watt Antec PSU that kills harddrives anytime I plug in 3 at once, it looks like Antec is only 1 complaint away from having just as bad a record as X-connects.

The reality is that it has been proven the X-connect is just a normal powersupply, not as good as an Antec (but nobody said there were anyway) or other high-end enthusiast PSU, but not particluarly bad either. Considering it looks better than an Antec of the same price, AND offers modular connections on top of that, it's not a bad PSU unless you are planning on using it to run a seriously OC'ed super-enthusiast PC.

Actually its a terrible PSU because its advertized to be an excellent supply. Its had plenty of people complaining about it not working, and if there's more than just a couple on this forum, imagine how many there are who don't belong to [H]. Thats the second review that it's blown up in, that I've read.

It may look better than an Antec in your opinion, but I prefer something functionally beautiful, which in this case, the clear glowing acrylic does nothing to enhance the performance of the PSU, its just like people putting spinner wheels on their car. It doesn't function better so its just fluff.

 

[jacuzz1]

glad that pcp&c will take back my psu and upgrade it to the new spec every time for a minimal charge. I should be recieving my 510 deluxe with external pots ---> SLI w 24pin connector tomorrow

o t

Is that company policy? I recently got the sli.

 

[computerpro3]

I believe so. Just ask for LArry, he'll do whatever you want for it.

 

[Diablo2K]

My L&C is working just fine!

I need a new PSU ASAP, but it seems I keep putting it off for something that I can actually tell if I upgrade it, As in, I just bought a new DVD-Burner, Hard Drive and a 6600GT OC. I know the L&Cs are crappy renamed DEERs and they have a reputation for blowing and taking other stuff with it. Next month I am planing to get a new Motherboard, so I guess I should get a new PSU to go with it.
What would be a good but inexpensive PSU that meets this new spec? I cant aford much more than about $50-60 bucks, and I dont care about looks!

P.S. why is this thread in the Video Cards forum?

 

[arentol]

Actually its a terrible PSU because its advertized to be an excellent supply.

OOHHH THE LIARS! They should be honest like 90% of the PSU makers out there and advertise there PSU's as "average".... Oh wait, everyone says there product is good.... Moving on...

Its had plenty of people complaining about it not working, and if there's more than just a couple on this forum, imagine how many there are who don't belong to [H]. Thats the second review that it's blown up in, that I've read.

I have read about half the "complaint" threads on these forums regarding the X-connect. Guess what. No one every actually says they have a problem with it an X-connect. On one thread a person even hallenged everyone to post a link to 1 person who actually had a problem and about 40 posts later in that thread there still wasn't 1 link.

Everyone who says it sucks always seems to bring up three things to defend their positions:

1: The Maximum PC article
2: The fact that its made by the same people that make PowMax PSU's.
3: The fact that everyone else says they suck.... "Just look at all the threads about how bad it is."

1.... The PSU in the Maximum PC article was tested in a 100degree room and there was no indication in the article that they checked for user error at any time. Regardless it could be a lemon, and a responsible journalist would get another one and test it again just to make sure, even if that meant they then had to print a follow up retraction (or confirmation) later.
2.... PowMax makes the most, and the best for their price (keeping in mind some cost $10), serious budget PSU's in the world. They are the biggest in the world in that market, and if they can succeed in one market, then maybe they can succeed in another. Plenty of companies come from a "budget" background and end up producing some seriously high-quality stuff eventually. Their background is really not something you can validly hold against them at this point.
3.... Well, I don't think I even need to go here. Using unjustified arguments (like yours, including NO actual proof) to justify an argument is just silly.

It may look better than an Antec in your opinion, but I prefer something functionally beautiful, which in this case, the clear glowing acrylic does nothing to enhance the performance of the PSU, its just like people putting spinner wheels on their car. It doesn't function better so its just fluff.

Actually I am referring to the version that is just highly polished metal that reflects like a mirror, without any glowing stuff on it.

Anyway, the X-connects do function. I believe one guy said he works at a store that has sold over 200 X-connects with no returns. Sounds like a functioning item to me.

 

[computerpro3]

I have read about half the "complaint" threads on these forums regarding the X-connect. Guess what. No one every actually says they have a problem with it an X-connect. On one thread a person even hallenged everyone to post a link to 1 person who actually had a problem and about 40 posts later in that thread there still wasn't 1 link.

Everyone who says it sucks always seems to bring up three things to defend their positions:

1: The Maximum PC article
2: The fact that its made by the same people that make PowMax PSU's.
3: The fact that everyone else says they suck.... "Just look at all the threads about how bad it is."

1.... The PSU in the Maximum PC article was tested in a 100degree room and there was no indication in the article that they checked for user error at any time. Regardless it could be a lemon, and a responsible journalist would get another one and test it again just to make sure, even if that meant they then had to print a follow up retraction (or confirmation) later.
2.... PowMax makes the most, and the best for their price (keeping in mind some cost $10), serious budget PSU's in the world. They are the biggest in the world in that market, and if they can succeed in one market, then maybe they can succeed in another. Plenty of companies come from a "budget" background and end up producing some seriously high-quality stuff eventually. Their background is really not something you can validly hold against them at this point.
3.... Well, I don't think I even need to go here. Using unjustified arguments (like yours, including NO actual proof) to justify an argument is just silly.



Actually I am referring to the version that is just highly polished metal that reflects like a mirror, without any glowing stuff on it.

Anyway, the X-connects do function. I believe one guy said he works at a store that has sold over 200 X-connects with no returns. Sounds like a functioning item to me.

YOu have about 10 facts wrong in that post I'll only point out a couple because my AVI is almost done compiling.

1. Powmax does not make them. They are made by a relativley unkonwn chinese company.
2. Powmax is not the biggest nor the best manufacturer of budget psu's.
3. The maximum pc article's 100f room temperature didnt even come close to offsetting the unrealistic rating of 20C on the x connect, so dont even go there
4. www.silentpcreview.com. One of the best psu review sites out there. They werent so hot on it, but it didnt blow up. And how do you suggest the maxpc article had user error?
5. There have been an awful lot of "lemons". Look at the x connect poll here by REAL users (those with experience with it only too). More voted negative than positive. And there were a lot of votes.
6. I find it funny you are criticizing him for having no proof when you're pulling yours out of thin air. And the ones you did try to prove, are factually incorrect.

Most of them won't blow up, but they do suck if you try to power an above average rig with them (there are excetions, but dont go running your fx-55 under phasechange with SLI and 10 voltmods on it).

 

[BossNoodleKaboodle]

Let's not forget also the users who had the glue problem. If this particular PSU was so great would it have tiny little heatsinks with glue covering them? The glue heats up and makes an awful stink. Maybe that particular PC builder's customers are too ignorant of good PSU's to know any better. Do you have any readouts off machines that would measure ripple and voltage drop when its under load? How does it compare to the other ~$100 units in the PSU sticky? The heatsinks in the Ultra are basically small rails of metal with tiny grooves on it, where as my Enermax 550W has massive metal finned heatsinks as a proper PSU should. The Ultra is a flashy penny for the uninformed to stoop and pick up, but its not something that a seriously knowledgable person would put into PC's that they build for others, with the lack of quality control and the poor coolin solution. Many people don't have their PC's in chilled rooms with proper ventilation, and this would be terribly inefficient to have a PSU with such poor cooling.

 

[burningrave101]

I have read about half the "complaint" threads on these forums regarding the X-connect. Guess what. No one every actually says they have a problem with it an X-connect. On one thread a person even hallenged everyone to post a link to 1 person who actually had a problem and about 40 posts later in that thread there still wasn't 1 link.

Noone has ever linked to a competant reviewer that has put one under heavy stress ither. The MaximumPC article is the only one that actually put the screws to the thing and showed it couldn't handle it. I personally know a handful of people that bought them and returned them because they weren't powerful enough for their high-end rig.

The X-Connect is manufactured by Young Year Electronics which has no reputation for produceing high-end power supplies and Ultra has been associated with POWmax (manufactured by Leadman Electronics) who is well known to be one of the worst in terms of quality.

Ultra has no reputation at all and is nothing but a re-brander that showed up on the internet around the first part of 2003. Their products are primarily marketed by TigerDirect.com.

The Ultra X-Connect is a descent PSU that can perform as well as most of the rest of your good quality generic PSU's. But it is not by any means a high-end PSU.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

P.S. why is this thread in the Video Cards forum?

Was thinking the same thing myself.....

 

[burningrave101]

Was thinking the same thing myself.....

Yea i dont know why Ice Czar chose to stick it here but o well lol.

 

[jacuzz1]

My L&C is working just fine!

I need a new PSU ASAP, but it seems I keep putting it off for something that I can actually tell if I upgrade it, As in, I just bought a new DVD-Burner, Hard Drive and a 6600GT OC. I know the L&Cs are crappy renamed DEERs and they have a reputation for blowing and taking other stuff with it. Next month I am planing to get a new Motherboard, so I guess I should get a new PSU to go with it.
What would be a good but inexpensive PSU that meets this new spec? I cant aford much more than about $50-60 bucks, and I dont care about looks!

P.S. why is this thread in the Video Cards forum?

Well althought i use PC P and C, not everyone wants to spend that kind of money so when I build a rig witha 60 dollar buget on the PWS I always go ENermax. I have yet to regret it.

I have built quite a few for people in the last 7 years and to date, no Enermax failures.

 

[jstnomega]

I have read about half the "complaint" threads on these forums regarding the X-connect. Guess what. No one every actually says they have a problem with it an X-connect. On one thread a person even hallenged everyone to post a link to 1 person who actually had a problem and about 40 posts later in that thread there still wasn't 1 link.

Everyone who says it sucks always seems to bring up three things to defend their positions:

1: The Maximum PC article
2: The fact that its made by the same people that make PowMax PSU's.
3: The fact that everyone else says they suck.... "Just look at all the threads about how bad it is."

4. http://techreport.com/reviews/2004q4/psus/index.x?pg=1

 

[burningrave101]

Well althought i use PC P and C, not everyone wants to spend that kind of money so when I build a rig witha 60 dollar buget on the PWS I always go ENermax. I have yet to regret it.

I have built quite a few for people in the last 7 years and to date, no Enermax failures.

An Antec, Enermax, or Fortron is what i would go with in that price range probably.

 

[Ice Czar]

Yea i dont know why Ice Czar chose to stick it here but o well lol.

seems this thread has gone astray

1. ATX12V seems likely to change from 4 pin to 8 pin +12V auxillary mobo connectors

2. to power PCI-E graphics cards which are going to jump from 75 watts to 150 watt (max)

Hold off on immediate investments of 'long term" PSUs those you may employ through the next several rigs, alternately play it safe and get one with an 8 pin +12V mobo connector and use a 4 pin adapter now

since the Videocard is more often than not the driving force behind many PSU upgrades these days, I posted this in here as well as in the PSU forum, besides the Video Card forum gets more eyeballs

 

[Ice Czar]

Boy, that's completely out of the blue, especially since 10's of millions of other PSU's have been built that also aren't EPS12v compliant. Why pick on X-connects?

not sure if you still havent followed the lead link or not so...

he was refering to Trusted Reviews having
employed a Fast Auto FA-828ATE PSU load tester (similar to what Intel employs in their certs)
and

5 http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?head=64&page=2307

Looking at the test results the X-Connect was about average in terms of efficiency. It was however not a smooth run and the X-Connect dropped down to 3.14V on the 3.3V at 75 per cent load, which is the cut-off line for the 3.3V rail. Technically it was within spec, but this is not a good result. Much more worrying is the 12V results at 100 per cent load, as it dropped well outside spec here.

Even more disappointingly, after about one minute at full load the X-Connect blew up. Although it didn’t do so as spectacular as the Silentmaxx, there was clearly a major malfunction.

test proceedure is pretty straight forward, it blew up when loaded to its full capacity as stated on the supply

that means they where cooking the books on the specs
its consitantly shown to be at best a mid-level to marginal PSU whenever its been reviewed by someone competent

there is a reason the supply has dropped from $140 to $70

Id recommend a review of the finer points of crossloading
which is why some configs have no problems even with the most craptastic supply while other rigs fry

 

[Ice Czar]

Cooking the Books in two parts

POWER SHMOWER
or How PSU Power Ratings Mean Almost Nothing

A frustrating fact about PSUs is that there does not appear to be a stringent or regulated standard for reporting, advertising and labeling rated power. This is despite the existence of standards like ATX2.03 or Intel ATX12V.

There are well-established standards for measuring and rating HDD capacity, an engine's horsepower, or the heat generated by a furnace... but not one for how much power a PSU can deliver. There are so many cases of people with "450W" PSUs having power stability issues running a system that can't possoibly draw more than 150W. And "300W" units that keep running where the "450W" units are faltering.

It's not just about bad PSUs vs better ones. It's a dumb situation caused by uncontrolled marketing competition. Real regulation would bring PSUs out of snake oil territory and into a more sensible consumer-friendly terrain.

There are many ways PSU makers fudge to make their units seem more powerful.

1) Out and out lying. You add up the power on all the lines in many PSUs and they fall short of the rated power by 10, 20 30W or even more.

There are more sophisticated ways:

2) Limit the AC input voltage to a very narrow tolerance. The best PSUs are able to deliver their rated power given a decent range of AC input power, say 90~130V for a 120V unit. It's much more demanding to produce 300W w/90VAC input than with 120VAC, so what some PSU makers will detail in their tech specs (usually not in their consumer brochures) is to specify 115-120VAC for input power. A PSU specified this way will not deliver full power if the AC voltage sags, if there is a brown-out. Surely it causes instability more often than a PSU rated to deliver full power with 90-130VAC.

3) Specify a low operating temperature for rated output. This is quite common, but again not often seen in consumer brochures, but rather tech spec sheets provided usually only on demand by engineers or corp buyers. A typical PSU operating temp statement is somthing like this:

0ºC ~25ºC for full rating of load, decrease to zero Watts O/P at 70ºC

Examine what that says. Full power (let's say 400W) is available when the unit is at 0ºC ~25ºC. Hmmm. Think about this.

Have you ever felt air blown out of a PSU in a PC running absolutely full tilt (which it would have to do to get anywhere near 400W output) that felt cool to the fingers? 25ºC airflow would feel exactly that: Cool, given that normal body temperature is 37 °C.

So this PSU cannot deliver full rated power when its temperature goes over 25ºC. OK, what happens to the max power output capacity above that temp? It decreases gradually so that by the time the PSU temp reaches 70ºC, the PSU cannot deliver any power at all. So if you assume that this power drop as temp rises is linear, then max power capacity will drop by ~9W for every degree over 25ºC.

Now having examined as many PSUs as I have over the last 2~3 years, I have to say there's not a single PSU in ANY PC I have ever used or examined that would not measure at least 30~35ºC almost anywhere inside the PSU under almost any kind of load. And if/when it is pushed, 45ºC is nothing at all, especially for or near hot running components like voltage regulators.

So let's say 40ºC is a fairly typical temp inside a PSU. This 400W rated unit would actually be able to deliver a max of just 220W at that temp. Hmmm. Interesting, isn't it? At 50ºC, the available power would drop to just 130W. No wonder some PSUs have 3 fans each capable of 50 cfm!!

Here's a simple fact: Really high quality PSUs are actually rated for full power output at as high as 40ºC. The trick is get a hold of the spec sheets that tell such information so you can compare apples to apples. Or ask.

from dansdata

Unethical PSU Marketing 101.

Here's how to make overly optimistic power supply specifications. It's really simple.

First, power the thing up. You can make an ATX power supply that isn't connected to a motherboard turn on by grounding pin number 14 on the big motherboard power connector. It's easy to spot that pin, because it's the only one with a green wire going to it.

Use any handy bit of wire - like the paper clip in this picture - to connect pin 14 to any ground contact. The ground contacts are the ones with the black wires going to them. Presto, the PSU will turn on.

Now, break out your brick-sized power resistors and load the heck out of one of the output rails - the +5V rail, for instance. Measure the current as you increase the load, until the voltage sags unacceptably far below the rated voltage.

How do you tell what an unacceptable voltage sag is? Well, you could choose a nice conservative small permitted sag - say, 0.1 volts - so that your results are genuinely useful to your customers. Or you could just ignore the voltage and say that when a fuse (or some other component...) blows, that must have been the limit, right there.

OK. Now you've made a big fat amperage number for the +5V rail. If you blew up the PSU in the process, get another one, and repeat the process for +12V and +3.3V, and for the low current rails as well.

On no account, though, should you test more than one rail at a time. This is the key to the whole scam.

A big beefy PSU may be able to deliver 50 amps (say) on the 5V rail when nothing else is under load, and 25 amps (say) on the 12V rail when it's similarly all alone. But the 12V and 5V rails together may only be able to deliver, say, 350 watts between them, when they're both under load. Watts equals amps times volts.

In a real PC, all of the power rails will always be under load together.

But you're not testing what the PSU can really do - you're making pretty numbers for the sales brochure!

So test all of your rails alone, get an amperage figure for all of them, multiply that figure by the voltage of the rail it came from (the nominal voltage, not whatever the voltage had sagged to as the PSU pumped electrons through the dessert spoon you'd soldered to the circuit board), then take all of the resulting wattage figures and add 'em up. That's a wrap, folks. Ship it!