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HDTV formats... why not standard?

S

Saeid

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 19, 2005
Messages
435
Ok what are the HDTV formats?

720 and 1080, correct?

Why didnt they choose the standard formats of:
768 and 1024

I mean if u have a 1024x768 screen that would mean u can enjoy 768 format HDTV...
or if u have the 1280x1024 screen u can enjoy 1024 format!

Would that mean on my 17" LCD (1280x1024) screen i can only watch i720 format HDTV?
 
because I'd rather watch stuff in 16:9 or 16:10 then in 4:3 or 5:4

Why not just make HDTV 320x240, then everyone could watch it.
 
True...

But what about the Widescreen LCD's that have a resolution of 1280x768 or 1280x800!
 
Many Widescreen LCDs support high-definition, but only in TV mode.

For instance, my Viewsonic N1750w can only display a max resolution of 1280x768 when connected to a PC, but with my Samsung HD tuner plugged into it, it can do 1080i.
 
Hey, just be glad for what we got... IIRC, it took Herculean pleading on the part of the computer industry to convince the HDTV Grand Alliance to standardize on square pixels. Could you imagine how ridiculous it would be if we couldn't have a 1:1 pixel mapping between data as displayed on a computer vs. a television? Oh God, I'm afraid to even bring it up for fear of retroactively jinxing us all. It's bad enough they snuck in a few interlaced formats just as CRTs were on the wane and everyone was moving to per-pixel addressable LCDs, plasma displays and microdisplays.
 
Yoshmaista said:
Many Widescreen LCDs support high-definition, but only in TV mode.

For instance, my Viewsonic N1750w can only display a max resolution of 1280x768 when connected to a PC, but with my Samsung HD tuner plugged into it, it can do 1080i.
Click to expand...

It's called scaling.
 
Yes with fixed pixel displays such as LCD/DLP/Plasma monitors you will always have to scale video that isn't at the native resolution. Having a 1280x768 display for example doesn't mean you cannot watch 1080i/p content, it simply means that the image will have to be reduced in size to fit on your screen. Its the same as if you want to watch an existing 480i/p video you will need to enlarge it to fit fullscreen.

At this point the main worry everyone is having about computer displays isn't how to make the image fit on their monitor. But if they will be able to watch HD images at all, with it looking like all monitors will have to integrate some sort of copy protected input to watch any HD content on future HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs.
 
Yoshmaista said:
Many Widescreen LCDs support high-definition, but only in TV mode.

For instance, my Viewsonic N1750w can only display a max resolution of 1280x768 when connected to a PC, but with my Samsung HD tuner plugged into it, it can do 1080i.
Click to expand...

I don't think you'd be very happy with 30Hz refresh rate in PC applications, which is why '1080i' ends with an 'i'. In any case the N1750w has exactly 1280x768 LCD pixels; it can downscale 1080i content into that format but it doesn't magically grow new LCDs when you hook it up to a HD tuner :)

For reference, here are the TV rez specs:

DVD (480p): 852x480x60Hz
720p: 1280x720x60Hz
1080i: 1920x1080x30Hz

What I think some people are wanting is 1080p, which is 1920x1080 at 60Hz; right now those run, um, about $11k. Also, nobody is broadcasting *anything* in 1080p, although I think the PS3 is rumored to allow 1080p output (yea, what are rumors good for?). If my memory isn't shot the XBox 360 will output 720p standard.
 
So in the near future when we watch HD movies on our lcd monitors...
it would be better to watch 720 since it would be true 720...
And have black bars all around!

rather than 1080, since that would be scaled down and the quality would be reduced!

right?
 
Just a word of caution. No TV can display 1080p right now. Sure they say they can, but if you look closely the MPAA was regulated that only firewire connections can support 1080p. So all those buying 1080p displays ... you lose.
 
Draax said:
Just a word of caution. No TV can display 1080p right now. Sure they say they can, but if you look closely the MPAA was regulated that only firewire connections can support 1080p. So all those buying 1080p displays ... you lose.
Click to expand...

Hardly. As far as I know there are two screens that can definately display a 1080p signal. However, neither are able to produce 100% of the information produce by a 1080p signal. They do produce noticeably more resolution than a 720p screen.

Read the reviews of the new Mitsu DLP 1080p.
 
Draax said:
Just a word of caution. No TV can display 1080p right now. Sure they say they can, but if you look closely the MPAA was regulated that only firewire connections can support 1080p. So all those buying 1080p displays ... you lose.
Click to expand...

Somebody better tell Sony. Sony Computer Entertainment is gonna feel really dumb when they find out Sony Electronics can't build TVs to display the PS3s 1080p signals. Then the Blue Ray guys will feel really stupid when they find out nobody can build a TV to display the 1080p signals the players put out. What a bungle!

Seriously the issues with the first-gen 1080p displays have more to do with cost-cutting and time to market. Somebody decided that since there's basically no 1080p sources to plug into a TV, they could save a few bucks by not implementing it and hope nobody notices. It's a classic example of early adopters getting screwed by manufacturers. Expect this to be sorted out with the next generation of displays.
 
No.6 said:
I don't think you'd be very happy with 30Hz refresh rate in PC applications, which is why '1080i' ends with an 'i'. In any case the N1750w has exactly 1280x768 LCD pixels; it can downscale 1080i content into that format but it doesn't magically grow new LCDs when you hook it up to a HD tuner :)


For reference, here are the TV rez specs:

DVD (480p): 852x480x60Hz
720p: 1280x720x60Hz
1080i: 1920x1080x30Hz

What I think some people are wanting is 1080p, which is 1920x1080 at 60Hz; right now those run, um, about $11k. Also, nobody is broadcasting *anything* in 1080p, although I think the PS3 is rumored to allow 1080p output (yea, what are rumors good for?). If my memory isn't shot the XBox 360 will output 720p standard.
Click to expand...
I think widescreen 16:9 NTSC DVD (480p) is: 853x480 @ 24FPS ...not sure about the Hz though.


At this point if we all want perfect 1:1 720p and 1080p content, we are going to have to wait for a widescreen 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 PC DVI/HDMI LCD that is HDCP compliant. Also, a 1:1 mapping option or using your graphics card for 1:1 (ie nVIDIA Centered Output option) would help.
 
mike_j_johnson said:
At this point if we all want perfect 1:1 720p and 1080p content, we are going to have to wait for a widescreen 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 PC DVI/HDMI LCD that is HDCP compliant.
Click to expand...

Does anyone know when computer LCDs are actually going to start being HDCP compliant?
ie. upcoming product launches...
 
mike_j_johnson said:
At this point if we all want perfect 1:1 720p and 1080p content, we are going to have to wait for a widescreen 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 PC DVI/HDMI LCD that is HDCP compliant.
Click to expand...

Nah, give me 3840x2160... That way you'd light 3x3 pixels for each pixel of a 720p signal and 2x2 pixels for every pixel of a 1080p signal. Not 1:1, but you do get to view both formats without having to stretch or shrink the image which would be sweeeeeet.
 
mike_j_johnson said:
At this point if we all want perfect 1:1 720p and 1080p content, we are going to have to wait for a widescreen 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 PC DVI/HDMI LCD that is HDCP compliant. Also, a 1:1 mapping option or using your graphics card for 1:1 (ie nVIDIA Centered Output option) would help.
Click to expand...

There are already a couple of 1080P LCD's to choose from.
Like this one:
Westinghouse LVM-37w1
http://reviews.cnet.com/Westinghouse_LVM_37W1/4505-6482_7-31386643-2.html?tag=top

$1999 at Bestbuy
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...CategoryId=pcmcat31800050024&id=1110265591243
 
logo29a said:
Hardly. As far as I know there are two screens that can definately display a 1080p signal. However, neither are able to produce 100% of the information produce by a 1080p signal. They do produce noticeably more resolution than a 720p screen.

Read the reviews of the new Mitsu DLP 1080p.
Click to expand...

Like I said, yes they are capable of displaying a 1080p signal. How does the signal get to the television tho? if the only input that can get the 1080p signal to the TV is firewire. www.google.com and trype in 1080p and MPAA. Its pretty clear.
 
Draax said:
Like I said, yes they are capable of displaying a 1080p signal. How does the signal get to the television tho? if the only input that can get the 1080p signal to the TV is firewire. www.google.com and trype in 1080p and MPAA. Its pretty clear.
Click to expand...

Wrong. First of all you DID say that they couldn't display 1080p. Second of all there are other methods of delivering 1080p.

Apparently the $225 NeuNeo HVD2081 can output 1080p via component-video
Click to expand...

http://reviews.cnet.com/Home_video/4532-10921_7-0.html?node=6463

Third, the new 1080p displays do a much better job with 1080i than do 720p displays.
 
Did you even read that article you quoted ? For starters it is from 2002. Before the MPAA even tried to sneak the broadcast flag in (June 2005). Within that article it clearly talks about the beginning of the broadcast flag and even states this:

your link said:
DTCP was defined as a method to encrypt information being sent over the IEEE 1394 transport to another device. This information can be audio or video or both. This encryption scheme has been adopted by major manufacturers and will become the standard by which Firewire connectivity is defined in the home theater
Click to expand...

The MPAA has implemented the broadcast flag "to plug the analogue hole". They are purposely not allowing analogue 1080p connections to try and prevent piracy. In addition firewire is unlike other outputs, as other outputs, output the raw signal to the TV, Firewire outputs the actual MPEG2 stream and at a rate of 19.2mbps.

The broadcast flag issue is all over any HDTV forum, and more information can be found Here
 
Draax said:
Did you even read that article you quoted ? For starters it is from 2002. Before the MPAA even tried to sneak the broadcast flag in (June 2005). Within that article it clearly talks about the beginning of the broadcast flag and even states this:



The MPAA has implemented the broadcast flag "to plug the analogue hole". They are purposely not allowing analogue 1080p connections to try and prevent piracy. In addition firewire is unlike other outputs, as other outputs, output the raw signal to the TV, Firewire outputs the actual MPEG2 stream and at a rate of 19.2mbps.

The broadcast flag issue is all over any HDTV forum, and more information can be found Here
Click to expand...

Draax, yes I did read the article. The first article is more recent.

I just don't see this happening. Compressing the RAW signal down to 19.2Mbps is going to seriously degrade it's quality. Besides it will require too much work from devices such as gaming consoles and dvds that are already working hard. I wouldn't doubt for a second that the MPAA would try this. However, have they actually gotten this put into law? If so, do you have any links with regards to this? I searched, but came up with nothing of the sort.

I'm not beyond convincing, but I'm naturally a skeptic and don't believe everything I hear.
 
logo29a said:
Draax, yes I did read the article. The first article is more recent.

I just don't see this happening. Compressing the RAW signal down to 19.2Mbps is going to seriously degrade it's quality. Besides it will require too much work from devices such as gaming consoles and dvds that are already working hard. I wouldn't doubt for a second that the MPAA would try this. However, have they actually gotten this put into law? If so, do you have any links with regards to this? I searched, but came up with nothing of the sort.

I'm not beyond convincing, but I'm naturally a skeptic and don't believe everything I hear.
Click to expand...

I dont like that the MPAA is doing this either. It is counter-productive and just plain stupid. Originally they were shot down by the FCC. But the MPAA, being as sneaking as they are, are trying to run it through the back door of the legislature and trying to have it written into law.
 
Ok,

You are using DTCP to enforce your argument that 1080p will require firewire due to MPAA sponsored legislation that was passed on behalf of the FCC. DTCP is only a method of encryption and it doesn't even have enough bandwidth to support 1080p. Although it does require firewire.

I can't find any evidence to support the idea that the broadcast flag requires DTCP. In fact, the broadcast flag doesn't appear to require encryption at all.

If the broadcast flag doesn't require DTCP then why would 1080p require firewire?
 
Yes, FW can be used to transport compressed HD with so much headroom you'll see the best picture ever. (720p and 1080i look exhilarating at 20mbit)

But real-time compression of a HD signal takes equipment that costs $50,000. No consumer device will ever do this.

as far as bitrates go, broadcasters only get 19.39mbit total. at that point, everything looks almost perfect. 720p even has a little "extra" if you want to squeeze it. Satellite, cable, all typically use lower bitrates. this is why directTV looks like ass. They are seriously strapped for bandwidth.

The only format I know of that uses a higher bitrate is the d-theater stuff, but that stuff is old-technology. encoders have come a long way since then, and bitrate efficiency of mpeg-2 has shot up significantly.

I suppose FW could be a requirement of broadcast-flagged data, but it most definetly will not be a requirement of 1080P. the broadcast flag only applies to broadcasted material - keep in mind.

there are current monitors that display every pixel of a 1080P60 datastream...but they cost an absolute fortune!

One cool thing about broadcast formats is that in a broadcast facility a 1080i signal is transported (with no compression) on a single coaxial cable. 1080P60 requires two coax cables. (dual-link HD-SDI). Real convenient. :D
 
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