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HDCP Monitors?
- Thread starter Phixzet
- Start date
Fast Drive
n00b
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HTCP is basically copy protection between different hardware components.
Fast Drive
n00b
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yup.
Kamotek said:
I saw it posted elsewhere in the forum... The only problem is response... 25msec...
I do realize that HDCP's future is uncertain - but I will not have funding next year for the HW, so that is why I'd like to plan for the future as best possible. Otherwise I'd wait until the 2405 replacment comes out - which I'd have to assume would have it. (And if it didn't I'd find something else)
Colin12 said:
I wouldn't want to buy a $800 2405FPW only to find I need to replace it next year. I believe that all HDTVs produced after July 2005 and sold in the US must include HDCP either as DVI/HDCP or included in the HDMI standard.
HDCP applies mostly to movies/video. It is being included in Vista so that the OS will work when playing HDCP encrypted content.
HDCP enabled monitors are just now being released (Gateway). Somone mentioned in another thread that Dell will be releasing one at the end of the year and several more in Feb/Mar although this hasn't been officially announced (for obvious reasons).
It is likely that most HDCP content will still display on a non-HDCP display but in a lower resolution. This is the choice of the content provider.
I'm no encryption expert but I wouldn't expect a crack anytime soon because HDCP is based on a 'key' system which can be updated and revoked rendering hack-devices useless after a period of time.
As of now, both Blu-ray and HD include HDCP in their standards.
Fast Drive
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HDCP is much harder to compromise as it involves a actual hardware based encryption.
Fast Drive said:
Like an earlier post says, its the key problem. The fact that its hardware is not really a problem (there is a dongle made by a German company right now that already bypasses the protection) but they keys used for the crack will be revoked, rendering the device useless. What is worse is that BluRay proposes to destroy DVD players that attempt to break encryption *physicall frying the hardware (flash most likely)* if it is altered in any way. Also, dvd players that have their keys compromised will be unable to play future releases. Now that totally sucks!
pawstar said:Like an earlier post says, its the key problem. The fact that its hardware is not really a problem (there is a dongle made by a German company right now that already bypasses the protection) but they keys used for the crack will be revoked, rendering the device useless. What is worse is that BluRay proposes to destroy DVD players that attempt to break encryption *physicall frying the hardware (flash most likely)* if it is altered in any way. Also, dvd players that have their keys compromised will be unable to play future releases. Now that totally sucks!
So I say, don't worry about it. *hugs 2405*
Besides, SED displays will be in full swing and it will be time to upgrade anyway
canis said:
We can hope. The problem is HDCP includes key-revocation, which means your magic passthrough adapter stops working when you install an update to Vista or pop in a new HD DVD disk. (Unless the adapter actually cracks the key exchange every time it is used.)
It will probably be much more difficult to crack HDCP than CSS. I'm still holding out hope that someone (like DVD Jon) will find a hack. There are already a few papers published about potential weaknesses.
OLED, SED, NED etc, all all promising mainstream technologies but we do not know when they will be released or what they will cost.
If you need a monitor now then you must purchase one. But there is probably no harm in waiting a bit for more HDCP monitors to become available. It adds little or nothing to the cost and the only people who object are those who just bought an expensive monitor and those who want to make copies. LCD prices will likely continue to drop so you will probably get more for your money anyway.
This isn't something that may or may not be implimented. All HDMI connections are currently HDCP capable. Both of the upcoming DVD formats include HDCP. The only real question is, how quickly will content providers implement copy protection?. If you have any doubts about that, then just drop by the offices of the RIAA and they'll explain it to you. So I wouldn't bank on a effective crack coming soon and if you want to boycott HDCP content ... well good luck with your protest.
If you're rich (or your parents are) and you can buy new stuff as soon as it's released, the above does not apply to you.
If you need a monitor now then you must purchase one. But there is probably no harm in waiting a bit for more HDCP monitors to become available. It adds little or nothing to the cost and the only people who object are those who just bought an expensive monitor and those who want to make copies. LCD prices will likely continue to drop so you will probably get more for your money anyway.
This isn't something that may or may not be implimented. All HDMI connections are currently HDCP capable. Both of the upcoming DVD formats include HDCP. The only real question is, how quickly will content providers implement copy protection?. If you have any doubts about that, then just drop by the offices of the RIAA and they'll explain it to you. So I wouldn't bank on a effective crack coming soon and if you want to boycott HDCP content ... well good luck with your protest.
If you're rich (or your parents are) and you can buy new stuff as soon as it's released, the above does not apply to you.
Irradiator
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I've seen a lot of discussion recently on HDCP as I've browsed monitor reviews, and this might be a good time to point out that HDCP was cracked in 2001. Here's the analyst's own take on the issue: http://www.macfergus.com/niels/dmca/cia.html . Now, he has wisely chosen to keep the method close to his chest, but if you look around you can find others that are on the same track. Basically, all it takes is somebody in China or elsewhere not affected by US law to legitimately purchase 50 product keys, and they can figure out the master key. Then, they could freely make DVI stripping devices at will. Blacklisting keys won't work because with the master key you could generate as many random keys as you wanted. Basically, HDCP will provide absolutely no obstacle to mass pirates, while preventing you and I from watching any HD content probably until the next time we upgrade our computers -after- Vista is out. If it's anything like previous windows releases, it won't work properly with any "legacy" devices, even those guaranteed to be compatible. The reason you don't see this being discussed a lot is because the people who are actually capable of doing the above are probably keeping quiet to avoid going to the big house.
P.S. Any news on the rumored Dell 3007/2407?
P.S. Any news on the rumored Dell 3007/2407?
Phixzet said:Oh no. My thread was hijacked
That's ok
I'd be really interested if someone knew more about coming Dell HDCP monitors... One out this year? Hmm... Doubt it would get any discounting at all unfortunately.
2007FPW
Vague so far.
It's (2007FPW) supposed to support HDCP and I believe it's supposed to have a faster panel, but I do not have any hard specifics to support that. 2407fpw is coming out in the same time period (Feb/Mar). Oh, and the reason it's not the 2006 is because the xx06 monitors are already shipping. I have a 1706fp sitting on my desk right now. The xx07 should follow accross the entire line of Dells. 3007fpw is supposedly shipping in Dec.
Irradiator said:I've seen a lot of discussion recently on HDCP as I've browsed monitor reviews, and this might be a good time to point out that HDCP was cracked in 2001. Here's the analyst's own take on the issue: http://www.macfergus.com/niels/dmca/cia.html . Now, he has wisely chosen to keep the method close to his chest, but if you look around you can find others that are on the same track. Basically, all it takes is somebody in China or elsewhere not affected by US law to legitimately purchase 50 product keys, and they can figure out the master key. Then, they could freely make DVI stripping devices at will. Blacklisting keys won't work because with the master key you could generate as many random keys as you wanted. Basically, HDCP will provide absolutely no obstacle to mass pirates, while preventing you and I from watching any HD content probably until the next time we upgrade our computers -after- Vista is out. If it's anything like previous windows releases, it won't work properly with any "legacy" devices, even those guaranteed to be compatible. The reason you don't see this being discussed a lot is because the people who are actually capable of doing the above are probably keeping quiet to avoid going to the big house.
P.S. Any news on the rumored Dell 3007/2407?
Personally I don't care if it's cracked or not. I just don't want any hassles on my end so I will wait for compliant equipment rather than an illegal magic dongle.
Oh and BTW, I invented a time-travel-machine but I am not going to release it due to the obvious possible abuses.
Just kidding. The guy is probably telling the truth but he also appears to have an axe to grind.
wonkman said:
lets just say for a momment that HDCP IS FOOLPROOF (which it isn't) all hackers would have to do is intercept the images AFTER its been proccessed and etc and BEFORE it goes to the panel type thing the key system would never even know its there because while the hardware would be modifed, its an undetectable modification (kinda like how you can split an eletrical socket into 2 type thing), kinda how the PSP2TV hardware mod works for the PSP abd BOOM pirates get full HD and post on internet and consumers get screwed, BUT the movie industry could fix this by hireing a guy in a back suit every time you bough a movie that would follow you around EVERYWHER and watched your every move, then and ONLY then would pirates lose. regardless to say this is once instance where I will still buy movies and probbly buy a blackbox to decryt it, but if it really pisses me off (I do not know yet as there is no content encrypted with HDCP yet) I will boycott and simply download off the internet, Currently I proudly support movies I like and have no movies on my computer that I haven't bought (my copy of photoshop thou is questionable
)Chilly
Chilly said:
But unless you're a major content-pirate, who cares? The HDCP adds little or nothing to the cost of the monitor while any required hacking device will cost money.
If someone in China or Taiwan or Russia figures out a crack, then so be it. But for your average consumer it seems easier just to get compliant equipment rather than adding a device or software to break the encryption. As others have said, it will not happen overnight but if you are spending an amount of money that is substantial to you, then you are likely better off getting an HDCP monitor than not. For those who upgrade every year or so, it is a non-issue. It also doesn't matter if you don't expect to be viewing any HD content on your PC. For those who just want to copy movies to pass to their friends, I don't really know what to tell you other than wait for the alluded to hack.
Most HDCP content will likely be available in a lower resolution for non HDCP equipment. It would just be unfortunate if your OS and video card were HDCP compliant but your monitor wasn't. BTW, most high-end video cards are now HDCP compliant unlike monitors.
Irradiator
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This is exactly what annoys me about HDCP. It does -nothing- to discourage true pirates, and it does -everything- to discourage "fair use" (i.e. timeshifting) that is currently legal for consumers to do. It is very reminiscent of the sony CP fiasco in that companies are using encryption technology to deny consumers their law-abiding rights. It is merely annoying that current monitors and other hardware will not work with HDCP, but it does irritate me that I will not be able to enjoy protected content until I sink additional bucks in a new HDTV. It certainly removes the incentive to be on the cutting edge, and takes a good bit of anticipation off of buying the Playsation 3 when it comes out. As PC enthusiasts, we are actually nowhere near as annoyed as the home theater buffs who bought $10k to $20k TVs 2-5 years ago with the promise of HD content who now will have obsolete hardware when cable companies down-res the analog ports to satisfy content providers (which has already occurred in some markets).
Instead of buying an HDCP-capable display, you could also buy that HDCP-encrypted video and download a cracked copy to watch it on your non-HDCP display. By any definition this would still fall under 'fair use'.
It might be a lot cheaper as well, depending on how many HDCP-encrypted videos there will be and how many of these you're going to buy
It might be a lot cheaper as well, depending on how many HDCP-encrypted videos there will be and how many of these you're going to buy
wonkman said:
Why should I settle for lower quality because some @#$%^& cartel dictates the friggn terms under which I can view hd content - that is the issue, unfortunately there is nothing, we mere individuals can do about it. I don't see how it will limit piracy as no one does/will bother trying to capture the video from the video card - its just way too expensive and time consuming. Most piracy occurs either from internal leaks or from media copies ie decrypt the dvd and copy it. Yet, I have to wait with my monitor upgrade (drooling over an Apple 30"er) until a HDCP version is released cause I don't want to be stuck with an expensive paper weight. It would be no fun watching a 720x480 resolution video on a 2560x1600 monitor.
Lord_Exodia
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norky said:
I have this monitor and I highly recommend it.
xX_Jack_Carver_Xx
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Go to the HDCP industry group and read up on it. The source asks the display for its ID#. and uses this, it also compares it to a known list of "EVIL NUMBERS" (known at the time the source was created/updated). Any blackbox that simply allows the user to alter the number so no ONE number can be blacklisted would completely snarfle the HDCP protection scheme.
Yes you'd have to havew a blackbox, and that will cost some $$, but it will be REQUIRED anyway to make older bigscreen TV's etc be usable with HDCP. So they will exist, and will snarfle HDCP and so the whole thing is a big waste of time/money .... AS USUAL... for any copy protection scheme foisted on the consumer. Just review the recent SONY rootkit issue, what a mess over such a juvenlie pursuit of IP rights protection.
Make the DVD $2-3, screw copy protection, and I'll buy them just to avoid needing to bother copying or renting, etc. Im sure most everyone would. They'd sell MORE and make the same $$ ultimately off higher volume.
But the industry is too stupid... its run by pinhead beancounters afterall... and so they will self destruct.
As it is, the cost of going to the movies is actually KILLING the movie industry, since viewership is off, so the $$ to make good movies is off, and the downward spiral of a negative feedback loop has in effect. Did you notice all the "movie stars" on TV in recent years, cause thier aint enough actual WORK in the movie industry these days.
Frankly, there is enough good content in existence to keep me busy for the rest of my life already, so FK new content.... except for TheSoprano's of course ;-)
Im in love with my Comcast HD Tivo box, its a riot, super convenient, and HDCP on DVI so I need a HDCP HD display to get the thing to work. So reality of HDCP has already landed at my house. Fortunately the Westinghouse 37" is HDCP. with DVI for the cablebox and DVI for my PC..... Wooooo Hoooo!!!!
"the sound of pennies being saved"
Yes you'd have to havew a blackbox, and that will cost some $$, but it will be REQUIRED anyway to make older bigscreen TV's etc be usable with HDCP. So they will exist, and will snarfle HDCP and so the whole thing is a big waste of time/money .... AS USUAL... for any copy protection scheme foisted on the consumer. Just review the recent SONY rootkit issue, what a mess over such a juvenlie pursuit of IP rights protection.
Make the DVD $2-3, screw copy protection, and I'll buy them just to avoid needing to bother copying or renting, etc. Im sure most everyone would. They'd sell MORE and make the same $$ ultimately off higher volume.
But the industry is too stupid... its run by pinhead beancounters afterall... and so they will self destruct.
As it is, the cost of going to the movies is actually KILLING the movie industry, since viewership is off, so the $$ to make good movies is off, and the downward spiral of a negative feedback loop has in effect. Did you notice all the "movie stars" on TV in recent years, cause thier aint enough actual WORK in the movie industry these days.
Frankly, there is enough good content in existence to keep me busy for the rest of my life already, so FK new content.... except for TheSoprano's of course ;-)
Im in love with my Comcast HD Tivo box, its a riot, super convenient, and HDCP on DVI so I need a HDCP HD display to get the thing to work. So reality of HDCP has already landed at my house. Fortunately the Westinghouse 37" is HDCP. with DVI for the cablebox and DVI for my PC..... Wooooo Hoooo!!!!
"the sound of pennies being saved"