Havok vs Ageia - Factual Differences

nhusby

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
303
ok. I am sick of this showing up in every physics related thread, so now, here is a place for it. may the Mod's have mercy on my soul.

ATI and Nvidia have announced that they are going to have hardware accelerated physics via Havok's API. Both NV and ATI cards are going to allow SLI / Crossfire + a lower end card for physics. (not sure about NV SLI + 1, but ATI for sure...) ATI is claiming physics superiority over Nvidia, and I havnt heard about any reply. Ati is also claiming superiority over Ageia, but this is not a fair claim, as the Havok physics API does not support hardware accelerated physics in the same manner that Ageia's does.

According to others on this forum, wich I am assuming know what they are talking about, the GPU is incapable of sufficient communication back to the processor to do full blown interactive physics. I.E. a piece of shrapnel from an explosion could fly through a player without doing damage. I have also heard speculation that rubble from explosions will not make noise, if say it hits a steel barrel. (due to the lack of communication between the GPU=PPU and the sound API.)

for this discussion I am calling Havok, and eye candy physics "soft physics", and full blown interactive physics (like in cell factor) "hard physics". also I am only talking about dedicated hardware acceleration. No CPU / quad core / smoke & mirrors BS...
Although there is a solution Mr. Nasty is working on involving snake oil, and a tea cake running in SLI via uegea board that is showing some promis... (right now it sustains 85 FPS on cell factor and empties a beer fridge in a half hour)

Initially there was a bug causing FPS to drop in GRAW, but that error has been fixed, and shows a 2 FPS increase where there was previously a drop.

Some argue that all Ageia's PPU is doing right now is soft physics. To those people, that puts Ageia on the same playing field as Havok / ATI. For the most part this is currently true. Some others argue that it has farther potential. At this moment the best example of that potential is the Cell Factor Demo

Many argue that Ageia's PPU is not worth $300 at the moment for soft physics. Less argue that it will never be worth $300. And to the physics enthusiast it is worth $300 now -edit (to the few people seeking better gameplay interaction)

Ageia currently only has a PCI version. PCI-E versions are slotted for future production. HW accelerated havok only comes on PCI-E GPU's...

Maybe someone will find this useful. Please dont turn this into a flame thread.
 

J-Mag

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
3,640
nhusby said:
And to the enthusiast it is worth $300 now

I agree with most everything you have to say except the above. I consider myself an enthusiast and I definitely don't think the PPU is worth $300 for GRAW / CellFactor.

All Ageia needs is developer support for the "killer_app" and the rest will be history. Unfortunately I don't see any "hard physics" multi-player games on the horizon (which is what a killer app needs to be).
 

nhusby

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
303
Terra said:
Good post :)

Terra - Thumbs up :)

thanks...

BTW did I miss anything leaning in either direction? I am trying to be non biased, but I will admit flat out that I am rooting for Ageia...
 

Terra

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
2,786
nhusby said:
thanks...

BTW did I miss anything leaning in either direction? I am trying to be non biased, but I will admit flat out that I am rooting for Ageia...

Nope, it was very neutral, I couldn't find anything to put a finger on :)

Terra - Like I said...thumbs up :)
 

nhusby

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
303
J-Mag said:
I agree with most everything you have to say except the above. I consider myself an enthusiast and I definitely don't think the PPU is worth $300 for GRAW / CellFactor.
You are correct. I should have been more specific. Terra thinks it's worth it now LoL. What I really meant, was to the physics enthusiast. Which is a niche market. I think its worth it, but I just dont have the money, so I do the next best thing and watch it like a hawk...

J-Mag said:
All Ageia needs is developer support for the "killer_app" and the rest will be history. Unfortunately I don't see any "hard physics" multi-player games on the horizon (which is what a killer app needs to be).
I agree. a multiplayer app would put Ageia's PPU on the map. I think its possible, but it would take some clever coding and paralell processing.

another note, The level of physics Ageia's PPU supports cannot practially be implemented into current online play. Hopefully someone will fix that soon. (the answer is not in the band, its in the box)
 

R1ckCa1n

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Messages
4,355
nhusby said:
Many argue that Ageia's PPU is not worth $300 at the moment for soft physics. Less argue that it will never be worth $300. And to the enthusiast it is worth $300 now

Way off IMHO. I buy everything the day it comes out, even if it is going from a X1800 to a X1900, but see no need to buy a PPU today. I can think of way better things to spend my $300.00 on that will actually increase performance/IQ/silece or enhance overclocking.
 

Terra

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
2,786
nhusby said:
I agree. a multiplayer app would put Ageia's PPU on the map. I think its possible, but it would take some clever coding and paralell processing.

another note, The level of physics Ageia's PPU supports cannot practially be implemented into current online play. Hopefully someone will fix that soon. (the answer is not in the band, its in the box)

I wonder if that 1/1mbit to 100/100mbit fiber they are digging down in my area now(Infact over most of Denmark, will suffice ;)

Terra - I can't wait to upgrade my 2mbit :D
 

Terra

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
2,786
R1ckCa1n said:
Way off IMHO. I buy everything the day it comes out, even if it is going from a X1800 to a X1900, but see no need to buy a PPU today. I can think of way better things to spend my $300.00 on that will actually increase performance/IQ/silece or enhance overclocking.

Your are not a "physcis" enthusiast.
Don't confuse GPU's, with PPU's.

Terra...
 

Terra

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
2,786
three_sixteen said:
My brain hurts... can someone translate?

Sure...
#R1ckCa1n dosn't have a problem spending +$300 for more IQ.
But he dosn't want to spend $300 on better physcis in games.
That makes him a graphics enthusiast.
He belongs to a very small nieche.
Most people wouldn't spend that much money on graphics.
Steam confirms this: http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html

I belong to a small nieche that want more/better gameplay physics.
(The suspension of disbelief)
But for some reason one is better than the other(in #R1ckCa1n's view)

I suspect it's his brand loyalty for ATI, that makes him feel this way(just ask him about NVIDIA IQ..you'll see..or read his sig. ;) )

And all his talk about "increase performance/IQ" is based on the merrits of a GPU.
Not a PPU that should be juged by CPU load+ FPS + realism + gameplay consequences.

Terra - Did that help? :)
 

psychoace

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
1,068
Is there such thing as a pc gamer enthusiest? I think you can be an enthusiest about the whole gaming scene. Most people here don't stick to one part and only worry about that 1. Most people try to make sure they get the most of of there computer for the budget they have. $300 ppu is sometimes not in that equation.
 

Ver1tas

Weaksauce
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
Messages
84
Terra said:
Sure...
#R1ckCa1n dosn't have a problem spending +$300 for more IQ.
But he dosn't want to spend $300 on better physcis in games.
That makes him a graphics enthusiast.
He belongs to a good sized nieche.
some people wouldn't spend that much money on graphics.
Steam confirms this: http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html (since when is steam an end all source, hl2 is easy to run at high res so no need to upgrade)

I belong to a very very small nieche that want more/better gameplay physics.
(The suspension of disbelief)
But for some reason one is better than the other(in #R1ckCa1n's view) (i don't believe he said that flat out, but i'll let you have it)

I suspect it's his brand loyalty for ATI, that makes him feel this way(just ask him about NVIDIA IQ..you'll see..or read his sig. ;) ) (nvidia vs ati iq is always a debate)

And all his talk about "increase performance/IQ" is based on the merrits of a GPU.
Not a PPU that should be juged by CPU load+ FPS + realism + gameplay consequences.

Terra - Did that help? :) (not so much but without the bias maybe)

Fixed

Anyways i personally don't care who wins.When a game, that I actually am interested in, comes out that uses physics (not l337 sp34k physX) ,in a way beneficial to gameplay, I will sure as heck buy whatever one is the winner. Aegia vs Havok (competition is good for the industry isnt it?).

Psychoace made a good point and i place myself in that category of pc gamer enthusiast. Brands are not relevant to me, it just matters who is doing the best when I make my upgrade every year. The ability to run at the highest performance with the most features within your budget.



Edit: just realized how stupid that steam survey really was. Sorry, it does not prove how much people spend.
 

Terra

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
2,786
Ver1tas said:
Fixed

Anyways i personally don't care who wins.When a game, that I actually am interested in, comes out that uses physics (not l337 sp34k physX) ,in a way beneficial to gameplay, I will sure as heck buy whatever one is the winner. Aegia vs Havok (competition is good for the industry isnt it?).

Edit: just realized how stupid that steam survey really was. Sorry, it does not prove how much people spend.

Let me help you with your VERY bad "fix".
Expensive cards:
NVIDIA GeForce 7800 Series 4.03%

I fail to see the X1800/X1900 series even listed, but if we look at the number(in DX9 cards) they have a market share LESS that 0.5%...

That is LESS that 5% of the market in all

Now would you please call that "good sized" again :rolleyes:

It's simple math..and you are DEAD wrong...

Aegia vs Havok (competition is good for the industry isnt it?).

And then you go on to compare apples and oranges... :rolleyes:

Terra - High end graphics is a very small nieche market...not matter what the PR tells you...
 

Ver1tas

Weaksauce
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
Messages
84
I think you fail to see that Valve/steam is not the end all of what gamers are playing and how many people actually do that survey, i sure didn't.

Anyways i don't see how the ppu has a bigger market share like you originally implied. But don't take it personally, it wasn't meant to be so calm down.

I never once quoted PR and high end graphics is not a huge market i just stated it was bigger than ppus currently. Please don't misread me i actually agreed with you partially.

"Apples to oranges" 100% correct, But I never said they were the same, just that they are competing and you cannot deny that they are even if you don't believe it.
 

InorganicMatter

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
15,460
Ver1tas said:
I think you fail to see that Valve/steam is not the end all of what gamers are playing and how many people actually do that survey, i sure didn't.
Actually, I would venture to say that the Steam survey is dead on. HL2 was one of the best selling games last year, and CS(S) is arguably one of the most-played FPS games of all time. I would say that the Steam survery represents a huge portion of the enthusiast market share.
 

psychoace

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
1,068
I think in the whole hardforum you are likely to see more High end video card fanatics and CPU fanatics then you will see PPU fans. Right now I am looking and I see that there are only 10 people viewing this forum. While Video Cards has 110 and Cpus have 60 (thats not including Case moding and Overclocking & cooling which would double the cpu number) Considering most of the talk in the video card forum is about high end cards and most of the stuff in the cpu department is deffinetly not low cost items (it's usually about dual core this or new core that) I find it hard to believe that the same amount of people care about ppu like they do about High end video cards. Hell I remember when this forum was created there was a lot of people protesting it saying it's pointless.

Also here is the survey it's automaticly taken i think and not something you give.


Oh if you look a little more you will see
"ATI Radeon X1800 2,081 1.12 %"
"ATI Radeon X1900 1,698 0.91 %"
"NVIDIA GeForce 7900 Series 783 0.42 "

Considering these are the top end video cards and this number dosn't even consider the amount of people that don't play Half Life 2 or have a hacked version of steam on there system it seems like a much larger group of people compared to the PPU scene.
 

R1ckCa1n

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Messages
4,355
Terra said:
Sure...
#R1ckCa1n dosn't have a problem spending +$300 for more IQ.
But he dosn't want to spend $300 on better physcis in games.

Because 300.00 today does ZERO to better physics unless you call blocky DOS looking phsics we have right now.

Maybe 300.00 on more memory. faster cpu's, german watercooling is a better investment right now.

Terra said:
Your are not a "physcis" enthusiast.
Don't confuse GPU's, with PPU's.

Terra...

I am an enthusiast for anything that makes my gaming experience better. You can't see past my loyalty to high IQ demands.
 

Elios

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Messages
7,247
psychoace said:
Oh if you look a little more you will see
"ATI Radeon X1800 2,081 1.12 %"
"ATI Radeon X1900 1,698 0.91 %"
"NVIDIA GeForce 7900 Series 783 0.42 "

NVIDIA GeForce 7800 Series 28,656 15.41%
you left that our

and if you want to look at the number of cards out there that can run SM30 then just look at the list of cards that defult to SM30 render path
Cards which default to DirectX 9 Shader Model 3 Path on Source (186012 of 711282 Total Users (26.15% of Total) )
over 1/4 of the ppl that have Steam have a SM30 card
other then the numbers already posted
the 6800 cards have over 1/4 of that number

edit also
as to how well ATis way of doing physics will work out lets look at multi-GPU stats
Multi-GPU Systems (5494 of 711282 Total Users (0.77% of Total) )
NVIDIA SLI (2 GPUs) 5,395 98.20%
ATI Crossfire (2 GPUs) 99 1.80%
that looks pretty bad for ATi if you ask me
and not great for NV ether that just .77% not even 1% of all ppl on steam have dual GPUs
i dont think offering hardware physics is going to make that on a GPU is going to make that go up much
 

Terra

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
2,786
R1ckCa1n said:
Because 300.00 today does ZERO to better physics unless you call blocky DOS looking phsics we have right now.

Again, you confuse IQ and physics...come on...
And CellFactor looks like a DOS-game? :rolleyes:
Or Joint task Force? :rolleyes:

Maybe 300.00 on more memory. faster cpu's, german watercooling is a better investment right now.

Comfirming my previous post...

I am an enthusiast for anything that makes my gaming experience better. You can't see past my loyalty to high IQ demands.

Sorry, but when you mix IQ and physics, that sounds awfully hollow...

Terra...
 

Terra

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
2,786
Elios said:
NVIDIA GeForce 7800 Series 28,656 15.41%
you left that our

Remember to put those numbers up against the TOTAL number of cards(DX9, DX8, DX7)

Terra - I was talking about numbers in total...not just SM3.0 cards ;)
 
A

altcon

Guest
Terra said:
Again, you confuse IQ and physics...come on...
And CellFactor looks like a DOS-game? :rolleyes:
Or Joint task Force? :rolleyes:



Comfirming my previous post...



Sorry, but when you mix IQ and physics, that sounds awfully hollow...

Terra...
I'm sorry but as I see it ppl are telling the cost out weighs benefit. Currently the acceleration of physics Via PPu (although a wonderfull endeavour), just isn't working in a fashion most people will spend 300$ on.
Offloading the CPU should achieve overall higher performance, since it has more resources to focus on other aspects of the game - this could potentially translate into higher framerates - so there's no conflict here with previous posts.
As for th physics factor - i haven't seen a PPU in action but judging from net critique - it doesn't sound ready for mainstream or judgemental high end adoption. If you spit money you might want to get one, but that's the only crowd I see buying such a gizmo.
Proof of burden lies on Agiea, and unless they come though they will flop.
I know I don't buy Video Cards for their Tech Demos (ie CellFactor), and new tech is no different, so they've yet to sell me one.
Having an opinion does'nt make it right -BTW.
 

Terra

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
2,786
altcon said:
I'm sorry but as I see it ppl are telling the cost out weighs benefit. Currently the acceleration of physics Via PPu (although a wonderfull endeavour), just isn't working in a fashion most people will spend 300$ on.

The same goes for grahips cards, point being? :)

Offloading the CPU should achieve overall higher performance, since it has more resources to focus on other aspects of the game - this could potentially translate into higher framerates - so there's no conflict here with previous posts.

People are expecting higher FPS..like they where talking abut a GPU...not a PPU...
That can be seen when people talk about IQ and PPU....would be the same as talking about chickens and moterbikes...they don't relate.

As for th physics factor - i haven't seen a PPU in action but judging from net critique - it doesn't sound ready for mainstream or judgemental high end adoption.

Most people that are against it, havn't tried it themselfes...but they "seem" to know an awfull lot about it...

If you spit money you might want to get one, but that's the only crowd I see buying such a gizmo.

Again, same goes for highend graphics cards.

Proof of burden lies on Agiea, and unless they come though they will flop.
I know I don't buy Video Cards for their Tech Demos (ie CellFactor), and new tech is no different, so they've yet to sell me one.
Having an opinion does'nt make it right -BTW.

That "techdemo" is going to be a game.
And again...people think that the 7800/7900 and X1800/x1900 are big part of the market.
Sorry, they are less than 5%.
I know I am an early adopter, but at least I got one, got hands on experince, I understand the tech behind it and what it will do to games.

Terra - How this reminds of the early 3Dfx days :D
 
A

altcon

Guest
Terra said:
The same goes for grahips cards, point being? :)
People are expecting higher FPS..like they where talking abut a GPU...not a PPU...
That can be seen when people talk about IQ and PPU....would be the same as talking about chickens and moterbikes...they don't relate.
As I already noted - offloading the CPU means more room for performance that MIGHT translate into higher FPS. No chickens or motorbikes here, just common sense. The claim is physics will be taken care of on the PPU -which the CPU "can't handle". That means more CPU cycles for everything else, that means that unless the PPU is now the bottleneck performance should go up. And if the PPU is now bottlenecking the system ..Well that should leave for thought wether its worth it...
Terra said:
Most people that are against it, havn't tried it themselfes...but they "seem" to know an awfull lot about it...
I said I havent used it, but I tend to trust [H], Toms, Anands and Xbit, so unless they're all fools compared to you, I'll trust their Pro reviews.
Terra said:
Again, same goes for highend graphics cards.
So are you claiming that moving from a 6800 to a 7800, or X800 to an X1800 yileds no noticeable difference?
Noticeable is the key word, I have to experience it in some fashion, if you think otherwise I have a great PII to sell you to enhance your Physics.

Terra said:
That "techdemo" is going to be a game.
And again...people think that the 7800/7900 and X1800/x1900 are big part of the market.
Sorry, they are less than 5%.
I know I am an early adopter, but at least I got one, got hands on experince, I understand the tech behind it and what it will do to games.
I'm sure you do, let us know when your knowledge translates into performance, then I'll shell out the cash.
As for the demo-Is the full game out? Is it any good?Is the difference tangible? has anyone (but you) praised it?If these all add up to NO then we're back at square one.
Might as well get yourself a chicken and a motorbike and convince yourself they improve your gameplay experience-I'll sell you a chicken for 300$ anyday.
 

MrNasty

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
221
altcon said:
I said I havent used it, but I tend to trust [H], Toms, Anands and Xbit, so unless they're all fools compared to you, I'll trust their Pro reviews.

You trust THG?

Sorry dude but wow. I suggest you read up on all the stup-, I mean inaccurate things they said.

1) All gameplay physics is handled by PhysX (Havok, actually)
2) HL2/oblivion use HavokFX (no, they don't - they use Havok, and they don't actually have HFX built in)
3) The ppu has the same tech specs a GF5600 and is therefore too expensive (errrrm not even close)
4) HavokFX accelerates normal Havok (nope)
5) Doors on cars/tires screw up in hardware mode (Couldn't possibly - Havok again)
6) Multiplayer physics are entirely different when one person is using a PPU (again, played it w both - there is no difference)

A lot of sites have jumped on the "review it!" bandwagon without actually knowing when the PPU's working and when it's not, what it's doing when it is, how it does it or even why you'd want it to do it.

They think "ah, graphics card - must be the same thing, right?" and then write the rest of their article with that in mind.

Hardware review sites and mags don't always get it right, no two ways about it. [H]'s preview is among the most reliable, if not the most. They want to wait until there's something worth testing, and say that everyone should wait until they see something they must have too, and I agree completely.

I'm a tinkerer and love new stuff - hence I grabbed one as soon as I could, but I don't expect everyone else to do the same. So make up your own mind about whether it's worth it to you?

And if you have done solely from those places you quoted please don't liberally serve it around here like you just did - we can read, kthx.
 

psychoace

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
1,068
Terra said:
The same goes for grahips cards, point being? :)



People are expecting higher FPS..like they where talking abut a GPU...not a PPU...
That can be seen when people talk about IQ and PPU....would be the same as talking about chickens and moterbikes...they don't relate.



And again...people think that the 7800/7900 and X1800/x1900 are big part of the market.
Sorry, they are less than 5%.
I know I am an early adopter, but at least I got one, got hands on experince, I understand the tech behind it and what it will do to games.

Terra - How this reminds of the early 3Dfx days :D

Wooooah your saying $300 dollars isn't a good value for a video card? Without it you are stuck with low resolution's and slow fps without AA or FSAA and tons of special effects like bump mapping, HDR, motion blur, ect. Without it you can't see anything while without a ppu games are still pretty enjoyable. Video card is an important standard that is needed for great IQ while the PPU just allows you to bounce stuff off of walls. I believe the Nintendo Ds does this job aswell.

Anyhow remember Terra has been this dedicated well before he got his ppu so for him to say you shouldn't talk about it before you actually have it is pretty ridicules he got his card like a week ago.
 
A

altcon

Guest
MrNasty said:
You trust THG?
Not Solely, but if verified by other sites I will trust them.


MrNasty said:
1) All gameplay physics is handled by PhysX (Havok, actually)
2) HL2/oblivion use HavokFX (no, they don't - they use Havok, and they don't actually have HFX built in)
3) The ppu has the same tech specs a GF5600 and is therefore too expensive (errrrm not even close)
4) HavokFX accelerates normal Havok (nope)
5) Doors on cars/tires screw up in hardware mode (Couldn't possibly - Havok again)
6) Multiplayer physics are entirely different when one person is using a PPU (again, played it w both - there is no difference)
1)never said it's being done-it is the stated purpose of a PPU though, isnt it?
All your Havok referances are pretty pointless, there was no comparison in play here, strictly talking about PPU merits, know any?
3)Do I care? How much does it costs to manufacture an Xbox360? would you pay a 1000$ for one? how about 300$ for an uncomfortable game controller? or an invisible cup of coffee?
It doesn't matter what it costs to manufacture, it matters what the added value per buckaroo is. Since it doens't seem high for now, I'll leave it at that.
6)Yes, so what is the point? if it doesn't help with anything?

MrNasty said:
A lot of sites have jumped on the "review it!" bandwagon without actually knowing when the PPU's working and when it's not, what it's doing when it is, how it does it or even why you'd want it to do it.
They think "ah, graphics card - must be the same thing, right?" and then write the rest of their article with that in mind.
Hardware review sites and mags don't always get it right, no two ways about it. [H]'s preview is among the most reliable, if not the most. They want to wait until there's something worth testing, and say that everyone should wait until they see something they must have too, and I agree completely.
So let me get this straight, you and Terra have the low down on PPU's and everyone else on the net is just BSing for article space?did I get it right?
MrNasty said:
I'm a tinkerer and love new stuff - hence I grabbed one as soon as I could, but I don't expect everyone else to do the same. So make up your own mind about whether it's worth it to you?
And if you have done solely from those places you quoted please don't liberally serve it around here like you just did - we can read, kthx.
In case you haven't noticed I have made up my mind, I also CLEARLY stated it a few posts back.
I also really don't nee your approval for anything I say. You have a problem with what I wrote? adress the issue, want to play high and mighty? try elsewhere.
 

defiant007

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
3,497
Fact of the matter is ageia's ppu does not net you any tangible benefit in any game that has been released to date. Thats the key.....you are paying 300.00 and in return you have a mere hope or expectancy that games in the future will put it to proper use.

If I go spend 300.00-400.00 to upgrade from my 6800gt to a 7900gtx, it is very likely that this expenditure will immediately enhance my gaming experience. The same cannot be said about an equivalent expenditure on a ppu.
 

MrNasty

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
221
altcon said:
Not Solely, but if verified by other sites I will trust them.
1)never said it's being done-it is the stated purpose of a PPU though, isnt it?
All your Havok referances are pretty good points, as there was no comparison in play here, strictly talking about PPU merits, know any?
3)I care because it obviously had a bearing on the final conclusion the reviewer came to. Obviously R&Ding an entirely new piece of silicon and sticking 128mb of ram on it is cheaper than taking a design you've already researched and taking some stuff out of it.
How much does it costs to manufacture an Xbox360? would you pay a 1000$ for one? how about 300$ for an uncomfortable game controller? or an invisible cup of coffee? I know I would - after all, I own chickens and motorbikes which I'd love to sell to Terra.
It doesn't matter what it costs to manufacture, it matters what the added value per buckaroo is. I don't even know what I've just written there, but it obviously means that I know exactly what a PPU does as I proved above, I'll leave it at that.
6)Yes, so what is the point? if it doesn't help with anything? Oh wait, I just realized - of course if they notice a difference where there isn't one it means that THEY'RE MAKING IT UP!

Thankyou, MrNasty, for setting me straight about some of this stuff.

So let me get this straight, you and Terra have the low down on PPU's and everyone else on the net is just trawling for advertising revenue? did I get it right?

In case you haven't noticed someone else has made up my mind for me, I also CLEARLY stated it a few posts back.

I also really don't need your approval for anything I say, but I desperately need other people's opinions, such as review sites, to help me prove my otherwise empty points. You have a problem with what I wrote? address the issue, want to have a discussion with me? try elsewhere.

Issues addressed :)

THG layed into GRAW for all those reasons and then stated the PPU's probably pointless because all Havok games will take advantage of HFX. Which is, er, wrong? Incorrect? Inaccurate? Wouldn't be the first time for THG.

A review should report the facts, examine the situation and then come to a conclusion based on those facts. THG got its facts wrong, and hence the rest - however astute given the (wrong) facts - is dubious.

You're rebuttal of my points does not in any way make THG's article more accurate, in fact your expression of your opinion that the PPU should be doing <xxx> that is exactly the kind of presupposition that made the THG article such a steaming pile of crap.

And yeah you pretty much got that last point right - hence why I post, education/discussion purposes, if you will. I'll give you some advice for free: go away and read some whitepapers, do some research and try to resist jumping on the bandwagon (prolly a little late for that). When you've done that feel free to post a) what you've learned or b) what you think. But don't do what you've just done and post "all these sites think it's bad - I do too!" - it's an exercise in pointlessness.

If you're posting on this forum after you've made up your mind - as I pointed out earlier - you're just preaching. Not being mean, it's just saying "5 review sites are behind me when I tell you the thing you own and use is shit" is just being, well, silly really.
 
A

altcon

Guest
"As of today, the PhysX PPU is simply not going to deliver a gaming value worth the purchase price. Does this make it bad hardware? Hardly."
"After spending some time with PhysX cards from both BFGTech and ASUS, I have come away unimpressed with the value it delivers to the gamer. (Also, just to be clear, the ASUS retail card is 128MB, not 256MB as previously stated.) The fact of the matter is that in order to experience what a PhysX card has to offer, you need a game that truly takes advantage of it"
To sum up alll the BS we spread over this thread before.
These two sentences sum up my current view on the PPU.
I did not imply it was a "bad" piece of hardware, just a useless one as of today.
I also assesed that no tangible benefit is delivered to the user when using this 300$ card in a system TODAY.
I also said "let us know when your knowledge translates into performance, then I'll shell out the cash.". I'm sure reading the white paper and spending 300$ still left that PCB pretty useless even now as we speak.
But, if the day shal cometh and the holy 300$ turd should come to use, bet your ass I'll run out and buy one. For now it sounds like you and the other "physics enthusiasts" have spent 300$ on beta testing. I'm glad you're happy with your card, but still that wasn't my point.
To finish this lovely post I give you from [H] conclusion about Ageia:
"With the current titles available, PhysX delivers nothing worth the purchase price and PhysX has to be solely valued by the gaming content that it supports....ysX will live to be judged again another day as we hopefully see games that truly take advantage of the promises that Ageia makes about their hardware. Until then, save your PhysX pennies because the cards are not going to be getting any more expensive, unless of course they go the way of the Dodo. We will be exploring this topic more as PhysX content is released" .
I dare you to go tell people they can get a 300$ card which benefits Physx but won't be noticeable till some APP with Physx Code gets launched, if you're not laughed out of the room, then I really must be off the mark.
 
A

altcon

Guest
MrNasty said:
If you're posting on this forum after you've made up your mind - as I pointed out earlier - you're just preaching. Not being mean, it's just saying "5 review sites are behind me when I tell you the thing you own and use is shit" is just being, well, silly really.

Just to dwell on that point, if you had a convincing argument I might change my mind. Unfortunately for me, that requires some evidence of the PPU being usefull in comething other then their Tech Demo/"Sales Launching" Game.
Till that day I will gladly defend my opinion (despite it being based on reading Web Reviews and not white papers).
 
A

altcon

Guest
Emergent develops 3D engines for some of today's most popular games. Sid Meier’s Civilization 4, Sid Meier’s Pirates, Dark Age of Camelot, The Elder Scrolls and Freedom Force are just some of the games out there that uses Emergent's Gamebryo engine. The engine has now been programmed to recognize an AGEIA PhysX processor when it sees one and kick into high gear. Emergent says that its Gamebryo engine is also being configured to support the PlayStation 3. With or without AGEIA's PhysX PPU on a system however, Gamebryo also integrates algorithms based on AGEIA's SDK, providing the some of the latest special effects but without the hardware acceleration.

Meanwhile, Destineer Studios has announced that it has outright replaced its physics engine with AGEIA's. Destineer had been designing engines for use in simulation for United States Marines but it too is now using AGEIA's expertise for games.
This is what we should be looking forward to...
When these games come through with PhysX support we can see what it's really worth.
 
D

Deleted member 133315

Guest
Well, all i can say is, I've owned my Physx for a few months now, and i can say it is useless as of just now.

Ok there is the odd game that takes some advantage of physx, but graw makes a mess of it, cellfactor is basically CSS with gravity issues and is something I would not play even if it did not require a ppu.

I have wasted my money, and until something comes along and actually makes use of the PPU to such an extent that it shows us its true colours and doesnt require quad sli to run due to the fact of all the extras being rendered, then I will remain disgruntled with this card.

Nothing anyone says or does in this forum can make me change my mind and make me think that the physx card is hotshit, the only thing that will change my mind is decent games that make use of it and shows us what it can really do, and not some stupid ass game like cellfactor which is CSS mark 2 and is purely for the kiddies amongst us....

I want to see flight sims make use of the extra physx power, as flight sims is exactly what the PPU was made for, there is many physics calculations in flight sims, which are bundled off to the cpu and can bog down the game, now imagine realistic weather, realistic weapon flight paths explosions, damage to the aircraft by flak etc etc.

Simualtion games have been lacking physics and in my opinion, a great sim can do a lot for physx if it was implemented right. Ok a great fps shooter will do more in terms of getting people to buy physx as many more ppl play fps games compared to sims, but I think sims have more oppertunity to show off what physx can actually do, I would think that simulations have a lot more different type of physics in them than any fps.

So until some form of game comes out that really shines and one that I will play, I believe that Aegia and Physx is going nowhere fast, even tho it has many developers lined up to code games for it.

I think havok or similar will be the overall winner, due to the fact that no one has to buy anything except a video card for that.

whatever happens, it aint gonna happen anytime soon....

infact, its so messed up, even my bios doesnt know what to call it :p
 

cyks

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
1,234
Terra does not disagree about the software support-- he has touched that point numerous times. Of course software support would be key when considering price, but that didn't mean shit when I-- any *many* others went the way of the dual core CPU. I didn't buy the dual core CPU to increase FPS. I did not buy the dual core CPU in hopes of a "killer app" being released soon. I did not buy the dual core CPU thinking it would be flawlessly supported by appropriate software. I bought the CPU because it was interesting new technology that I wished to see succeed, and I wanted to see how it worked. I voted for dual core with my money.



Vote lacking is not a vote against the PPU. I did not vote for it (I will with a new build), but I do favor it over other solutions. The hostility in this forum is not stemming from disagreement (most of the time), but from the misuse of wrong terminology.



Buying a hardware solution based upon Havok or ATI or wtf-ever is like voting a manager from McDonalds into presidency.
 

defiant007

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
3,497
cyks said:
Terra does not disagree about the software support-- he has touched that point numerous times. Of course software support would be key when considering price, but that didn't mean shit when I-- any *many* others went the way of the dual core CPU. I didn't buy the dual core CPU to increase FPS. I did not buy the dual core CPU in hopes of a "killer app" being released soon. I did not buy the dual core CPU thinking it would be flawlessly supported by appropriate software. I bought the CPU because it was interesting new technology that I wished to see succeed, and I wanted to see how it worked. I voted for dual core with my money.



Vote lacking is not a vote against the PPU. I did not vote for it (I will with a new build), but I do favor it over other solutions. The hostility in this forum is not stemming from disagreement (most of the time), but from the misuse of wrong terminology.



Buying a hardware solution based upon Havok or ATI or wtf-ever is like voting a manager from McDonalds into presidency.

A fatal flaw with your analogy is that you could still put your dual core cpu to use for other things even if it didnt involve multi threaded applications, if anything by going the dual core route you to some extent future proof. You buy something that is useful now and may be even more useful in the future.
 

psychoace

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
1,068
You don't buy a higher cost dual core cpu for higher fps? To me that is always the reason to get a new cpu. The more offloaded on the first cpu the less lag there will be so the game should run faster and of course gain fps.

Also buying a Ageia card is like voting for President Bush yes on paper he looks like a good canadite he's got the Yale degree, he's ran many oil companies, he owned the Texas Rangers, served in the armed forces, was a highly popular governor. Now put that all into action and what did we get?
 

nhusby

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
303
EVIL-SCOTSMAN said:
Well, all i can say is, I've owned my Physx for a few months now, and i can say it is useless as of just now.

Ok there is the odd game that takes some advantage of physx, but graw makes a mess of it, cellfactor is basically CSS with gravity issues and is something I would not play even if it did not require a ppu.

I have wasted my money, and until something comes along and actually makes use of the PPU to such an extent that it shows us its true colours and doesnt require quad sli to run due to the fact of all the extras being rendered, then I will remain disgruntled with this card.

Nothing anyone says or does in this forum can make me change my mind and make me think that the physx card is hotshit, the only thing that will change my mind is decent games that make use of it and shows us what it can really do, and not some stupid ass game like cellfactor which is CSS mark 2 and is purely for the kiddies amongst us....

I want to see flight sims make use of the extra physx power, as flight sims is exactly what the PPU was made for, there is many physics calculations in flight sims, which are bundled off to the cpu and can bog down the game, now imagine realistic weather, realistic weapon flight paths explosions, damage to the aircraft by flak etc etc.

Simualtion games have been lacking physics and in my opinion, a great sim can do a lot for physx if it was implemented right. Ok a great fps shooter will do more in terms of getting people to buy physx as many more ppl play fps games compared to sims, but I think sims have more oppertunity to show off what physx can actually do, I would think that simulations have a lot more different type of physics in them than any fps.

So until some form of game comes out that really shines and one that I will play, I believe that Aegia and Physx is going nowhere fast, even tho it has many developers lined up to code games for it.

I think havok or similar will be the overall winner, due to the fact that no one has to buy anything except a video card for that.

whatever happens, it aint gonna happen anytime soon....

infact, its so messed up, even my bios doesnt know what to call it :p

I respect your views and from your prespective I agree with you. The PPU is a poor investment for you at the moment. For your interests, it currently has little to no return.
I would LOVE to see a space sim (something like freelancer) and some flight sims with accelerated physics.

To the others out there... I think I stated, rather obviusly, that to the general masses, the PPU is currently not worth it. And to some, it will never be worth it.
I think we are forgetting the enthusiastic part about enthusiast. If you have the money, and you are enthusiastic about accelerated physics, then you might think its worth $300 just to experience the ugly blocks shooting out of GRAW and the (perhaps skewed) gravity in Cell Factor.

No one is saying it is for everyone... Especially right now... The smartest comment I have heard (repeatedly) is "wait and see."
 

nhusby

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
303
psychoace said:
You don't buy a higher cost dual core cpu for higher fps? To me that is always the reason to get a new cpu. The more offloaded on the first cpu the less lag there will be so the game should run faster and of course gain fps.

Also buying a Ageia card is like voting for President Bush yes on paper he looks like a good canadite he's got the Yale degree, he's ran many oil companies, he owned the Texas Rangers, served in the armed forces, was a highly popular governor. Now put that all into action and what did we get?

this is completely unrelated, and I am going to have to disagree with you....

just for the record, I didnt vote for the baby killing liar, Kerry, who didnt get where he is without his ketchup selling inlaws... Atleast G-dub (I can call him that because he is my best friend by the way) has the backbone (wich is necisary for a president) to go to war.

I havnt bought a new CPU for years... but when I do, I will buy an intel, with performance and stability in mind. It will give me a better gaming experience and run my applications quicker.
 

psychoace

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
1,068
nhusby said:
this is completely unrelated, and I am going to have to disagree with you....

just for the record, I didnt vote for the baby killing liar, Kerry, who didnt get where he is without his ketchup selling inlaws... Atleast G-dub (I can call him that because he is my best friend by the way) has the backbone (wich is necisary for a president) to go to war.

I havnt bought a new CPU for years... but when I do, I will buy an intel, with performance and stability in mind. It will give me a better gaming experience and run my applications quicker.

Backbone or just complete ignorence to how his actions actually affect the real world? To say Bush has backbone is like saying a dog who keeps running into an electric fence has backbone.

Anyway I think if you said that you were going to buy an Intel about 6 months ago most people would say your crazy and your wrong about all those comments but the Conroe is really proving itself to be a competitor. Not saying AMD wont come back it's just atleast if i was in the market for a cpu right now I would go Intel easily. I wont be able to tell you though where i would go in 2 years though.
 

nhusby

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
303
To say Bush has backbone is like saying a dog who keeps running into an electric fence has backbone.
LoL I like that one.

I like intel because it is my bilief (not that I have seen hard tangible proof lately) that they are more stable. I dont buy top end chips, and I dont care about 3 fps. As long as I get atleast 20FPS preferably 30FPS I dont give a damn... do you notice your tv refresh? 30FPS is all that I think is necisary.

that aside, I want a PPU not because I think it will up my FPS, but because I think it will make more interesting gameplay feasible without significant slowdowns.
 
Top