Have to build my first High End server for school, need advice.

J

J32P2006

Gawd
Joined
Aug 27, 2005
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Hello,
I have to build a high end server for a class project at school(ITT) and want the best workhorse that money can buy,
but without the crazy, top of the line stuff if possible. This project is only hypothetical. I'm not really going to build it,
wish I could though, and put it in my house... :D

Anyways, I'm new to servers/server components. And I'm not sure what is top of the line, or what's the best bang for the buck.
And that's why I thought I'd get some of the [H] members opinions on it.

There would be about 100-150+ hardwired clients on the network, with 10-15 wireless clients.
Expandability/scalability is a big plus, as it decreases future costs.

Edited do to real world advice, will post updates.Also, this is what I have on paper before I went into my build an Xtreme server phase.

Hardware Needed

1. 76 Dell Dimension B110's with Windows XP Hme Edition preinstalled from the factory.
$600 each x 76 workstation = $45,600

Link to site
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DB110L1&s=dhs


2. 5 Dell Inspiron 9300 Base System's with wireless Networking.
$1,200 each x 5 laptops = $6,000

Link to site
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/entnb_9300?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

3. 3 Custom built high end servers built my our compnay to guarantee uptime.
"And low cost/performance ratio".

Estimated cost per server is $5,000 - $6,000 each times three = $16,000

Parts list for servers

Dual socket dual core s940 tyan motherboards
2 amd 265 dual core opterons
4-8 gigabytes of ecc registered ram
5 WD 150 Raptors running in raid
heavy duty psu with backup psu "all in one".
generic server case

more parts and specifics to be added later.


4. 11 SAMSUNG Laser Workgroup Monochrome Printers for each department
$639.oo each x 11 = $7,029

Link to site
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16828112040


5. 11 NETGEAR FSM726S 10/100/1000Mbps Managed Stackable Switch's
"One for each department".
11 x $330.oo = $3,700

Link to site
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16833122039


6. 22 NETGEAR DS108NA 8-Port 10BaseT/100BaseTX Hubs
" Two for each department".
22 x $49.99 = $1,100

Link to site
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817111501

7. 3 OPTI-UPS ES1500C-RM UPS (Backup Power Supplies)
"One for each Server". Gives 45 minutes to properly shutdown or prevent downtime
$241.oo x 3 = $723

Link to site
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16842107123


8. Backups will be the raid itself for the servers and regular cd's for the workers.
Extra backup for the servers will be terabyte extrenal harddrives.
$1,000 each times three = $3,000
But still deciding on what comapany though.

9. We will set aside $3,000 for bulk wires and misc hardware, this prevents going over budget.

Hardware Needed subtotal $ 90,000



Software needed

1. All workstation OS's are preinstalled from the factory. Which is windows XP home edtion SP2

2. 3 Microsoft Exchange Server 2003 Standard Licenses x 3 = $3,200

3. All workstation come preinstalled with Microsoft Works Suite 2006

4. Client Cal's = unsure what this is.

5. email will be mozilla thunderbird or another free one.

6. we will use firefox on all machines for it's non-use of java scripts.And It's just an all around
safer browser and it's free.

7. For antivirus protection we will use either a free one like AVG or A paid subscription for Nod32
which run about $2,500 for 84 machines. Yes, we will run Nod32 on the servers as well.

8. Backup for the workstation will be cd-rw's. Cost will be around $500-$1,000 for 10,000 cd's

9. As for other necessary software, there isn't any


Software needed subtotal $7,000



Connectivity

1. 12-fiber Distribution, Plenum, 1000' role for $1,699. this will run to all the servers and make up the
backbone.

Link to site
http://www.nudata.com/cables/bulkcable/belden_bulk.htm

600-Series Cable coax cable 1000 ft roles. 3 x $850 = $2,550
This is top-notch stuff here, I think .LOL.

Link to site
http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/cable_bulk.php

$500 will be set aside for other msc. wires and cables


2. The leased line for internet will be a T1 connection that runs the rate of $550 - 1200 a month

Link to site
http://www.t1shopper.com/cgi-bin/global.telecom.t1shopper.pl


3. Other necessary connectivity will be wireless access points and cards for the managements
Laptops. These can be had for a ver low cost at any computer store. So we will say $600 for
those items.

Connectivity subtotal $12,550
which includes one year with T1 access.


Labor for installation:

1. Network analysis = 40 hours x $40 an hour = $1,600

2. Network implementations = 40 hours x $40 an hour = $1,600

3. Training = 80 hours x $40 an hour = $3,200

4. Ongoing maintnence support = $40 an hour x 20 hours a week for a part time on-site
Network Admin = $41,600 a year

5. We will see about other necessary labor when we get there. But we will leave $2,500 for
assurance.

Labor for installation: subtotal $50,500

And just to note that this has a very good chance of being under budget when it's all said and done.



Project Total $160,050 or $170,200 with tax
with on-site admin and a T1 ISP for one year
Click to expand...






What am I missing ?
What would work better ?




So far, that's what I got

Thanks for your time,
J32P2006
 
Ditch the 7900GT, and get the cheapest video card that would work in the machine.

Why both SCSI, and SATA drives?
 
"High End"...yet "Nothing crazy, best bang for buck"....that's two opposite things.

First....there are many many different purposes for servers. When spec'ing out a server, you must ask "What is it my server is going to do? What do I need it for?"

100 - 150 clients..you're more than likely going to have several servers, this is outside the normal scope of something like Small Business Server.

There are many different purposes...
*Infrastructure server..do be a domain controller, control active directory, DNS, print sharing, DHCP, basically manage the network. Basic CPU and RAM (1 gig would be fine), not much disk storage needed, usually a RAID 1 mirror..usually a 1U server.
*File store server.....this does the file storage for the network..often a big NAS box...lots of hard drive space, higher speed hard drives like 15krpm. Basic CPU, average RAM (1 gig would be fine), lots of disk space in RAID.
*Data base server. Running a main database application, such as SQL. Often dual CPUs, higher end CPUs like Xeons. Stuffed with RAM, very fast disks of average capacity, separate RAID volumes for OS and database.
*Mail server, such as Exchange...similar to database server
*Terminal server...if you run any application to be hosted for remote desktop access. Dual CPUs, stuffed with RAM, average hard drives

Higher end servers...which building your own is fun for home 'n stuff, for an important thing like business production server, I'm not fond of home grown servers. Need something with guaranteed compatibility of server certified parts, proper driver support, good warranty behind each component that's fast and easy to replace.

A good RAID controller, you want to RAID your hard drives.

Important uptime needed? Hot swap drives might be considered

Also for uptime...redundant hot swap power supplies?

Based on what kind of server you have (see above list)....proper backup, backup capacity, backup software with appropriate agents to properly backup special items like mail or database

Antivirus protection

APC Battery backup units

Licensing/CALS for OS and any special software

Wireless network access would be something different, dealt with on the access point/topology level, not usually the server level.
 
JTY said:
Ditch the 7900GT, and get the cheapest video card that would work in the machine.

Why both SCSI, and SATA drives?
Click to expand...

1. Don't newer cards run with less heat then older cards ? But yeah, a 6600gt or lower would work.

2. I'm not sure why, Would it make sense to have the most used stuff on the scsi's and backup stuff on the sata or does it not work like this because raid would be used ?
I just thought that the most intensive stuff could run off the scsi's and the , ummm, nevermind.

So I should go all scsi then, right ?
Are those drives overkill, or will they keep the network flowing ?

Please remember that I'm going to school for computer networking but I don't have any hands on experience as of it.
Sorry for being a newb and thanks for the help.


"High End"...yet "Nothing crazy, best bang for buck"....that's two opposite things.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm looking for the middle to upper end with the hardware.
 
To put this in proper context we need to know the what the server will be doing in terms of being a server as well as what OS you would use.

But just looking over the hardware, I have to ask why the mix of SATA and SCSI? What will be the purpose of the drives? Which will be for OS and for Data?

Although the Tyan has SATA Raid, what raid level do you plan on using and why?


Do you realize the Tyan onboard SCSI does not do RAID? What about hot swap hard drives in case of failure?

The memory you have chosen is not listed on Tyan's website as having passed internal engineering tests in TYAN's compatibility lab. You don't want to build a server and find out the RAM you bought doesn't work as expected.

The RAM you specified is two 1GB chips in a set for a total of 2GB, 8 sets means 16 chips, the board only supports 8 memory sticks total.

You spec out two power supplies earmarking one for "backup", why not go with a true dual redundant PSU setup? Hot swappable PSUs even.

The video card is way overkill for a server. Spec in something way cheaper.
 
OK. I would go SCSI for the drives. And, use a tape drive for backups. Say, for example the PSU has a major meltdown, and smokes all the drives. You'd lose your backups.

As for the newer video cards producing less heat, that's true. However, it wouldn't matter since the card would be basically idle all the time.

The PSU is overkill as well, a solid 600W would run it just fine.
 
YeOldeStonecat, and you other dudes too

First, thank you for your input.

Second, I'll have to get back to you exactly the server is for.
I just started thinking about it without the project paper.
Will get details though.

But from what you posted. I'm pretty sure I was going waay overboard.
And I will need three servers, 4 workgroup printers, but waiting for teacher to email the whole scenario.


Sorry for posting while being unprepared
Thanks for your time,
J32P2006
 
As a graduate from ITT i can tell you that my instructor was looking for a server system that was purchased rather than built. (For reasons of warranty, etc.)

That was, however, my instructor and not yours.

I would look into getting NIC's that can be teamed or replacing the NICs with fiber channel cards.

Make sure the server would either be in a lockable cabinet or a lockable enclosure for security reasons.

If you're going to use over 2gb of ram or so youll need to switch to an Advanced/Datacenter edition of windows server, windows natively cannot address that much memory, datacenter is only capable of 16gb of ram (CMIIW)

Replace teh 871 router FTW on the routing end. that's low end compared to alot of the cisco stuff.

If i remember this exercise it was more like "see who can spend the most money"

If you could drop us the specs...you might find that a single windows server and a few linux/mac servers might be the way to impress your instructor.

...I think I had 2 windows servers, a linux router and a mac server (xraid for storage) when I did mine. Wait til you get to capstone :) (could be easy/hard depending on your instructors) Mine gave me 1 Million to setup 5 schools and 1 administrative building

multiple servers at each site, about 250 client stations at each site, printers, NW hardware the whole shebang.
 
J32P2006 said:
Sorry for posting while being unprepared
Thanks for your time,
J32P2006
Click to expand...

Hey, no need to apologize...it's a learning experience. Exciting doing a project like this...I love doing all new fresh designs.

As for the video card...most business grade servers only run on onboard 8 or so meg card...often some ATI XL. You're never going to be doing anything on a server beyond what even an ancient S3 Virge 4 meg card from the Windows 95 days can't handle.

Tape backup..many different types...and this comprises a BIIIG cost of your server. Often you'll have 2-3 grand or more tied up in this alone. DLT and Ultriums are common for larger capacity jobs.

Several servers...you'll want a good switch up top (say an 8 or 12 port gigabit)....plug your servers into them, and uplink the rest of your switches into it. Get a few 24 port 10/100 switches with a gigbit port for uplinking to to main giga switch.

Server cabinet like a nice APC netshelter!

Centrally managed antivirus solution to protect your entire network.
 
Kaos said:
As a graduate from ITT i can tell you that my instructor was looking for a server system that was purchased rather than built. (For reasons of warranty, etc.)
Click to expand...
Kaos said:
That was, however, my instructor and not yours.

I would look into getting NIC's that can be teamed or replacing the NICs with fiber channel cards.

Make sure the server would either be in a lockable cabinet or a lockable enclosure for security reasons.

If you're going to use over 2gb of ram or so youll need to switch to an Advanced/Datacenter edition of windows server, windows natively cannot address that much memory, datacenter is only capable of 16gb of ram (CMIIW)

Replace teh 871 router FTW on the routing end. that's low end compared to alot of the cisco stuff.

If i remember this exercise it was more like "see who can spend the most money"
Click to expand...



Your right on the money,
I was thinking that my company would make more money and have faster servers if we built them are selves but it probably ain't worth the headaches, right ?
Anybody know of some good preconfigured servers for use as a *Infrastructure server ?
 
If the video card has a fan, you do not need it. I would hunt around for a passivly cooled card that is well supported in windows and linux. Currently, nvidia has vastly superior driver support in linux than ATI, so perhpas start with that. passivly cooled card use less power (usually), and generate less heat. Unless your server is doing graphical stuff (can't imagine what a server would be doing that for), the ONLY purpose of having a video card is to ensure that onboard video does not cumsume processor power or system ram.
 
For enclosures and UPS look into Liebert cabinets and UPS systems. They are THE BEST UPS' in the world.

My company is one of the only east coast resellers and we sell hundreds of these things to the navy, fbi, DOD, basically all of the three letter agencies.

They have huge UPS systems that electricians can distribute building wide. (so say all instructor stations, network equipment and servers would remain on during an outage)

Understand this comes with a F'IN HUGE PRICETAG.
 
J32P2006 said:


Anybody know of some good preconfigured servers for use as a *Infrastructure server ?
Click to expand...


I'm a fan of HP Proliants (dl360 and dl380 would be the ones I'd be using in your case..the 360's for infrastructure, the 380's for mail and database, storage). I've worked with Compaq/HP servers for most of my career...I find them excellent, with great fast easy support.

IBM X series are another one I love.

Dell....make sure you purchase their extra support planes, else you'll hate...absolutely HATE..trying to support them with someone with a broken accent telling you to run your restore CD everything time server hiccups. :rolleyes:
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
Dell....make sure you purchase their extra support planes, else you'll hate...absolutely HATE..trying to support them with someone with a broken accent telling you to run your restore CD everything time server hiccups. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Gold level tech support all the way ;) :p
 
J32P2006 said:




Your right on the money,
I was thinking that my company would make more money and have faster servers if we built them are selves but it probably ain't worth the headaches, right ?
Anybody know of some good preconfigured servers for use as a *Infrastructure server ?
Click to expand...


For the winders' world I tend to lean towards IBM

for Unix/Linux I like SUN (may be soon to be Google ;) hardware or Apple hardware.

I like the apple servers not only because I like alot of their stuff but you can implement almost any service very quickly with their "Server Admin software" think of it like a badass MMC on steroids.

You can literally envoke multiple services at the drop of a hat, without rebooting.

-K
 
SJConsultant said:
Gold level tech support all the way ;) :p
Click to expand...


YYYyuuup! I think I'll change my policy for double the hourly rate for any clients who have Dell gear that don't get that support package. I absolutely HATE dealing with Dell otherwise.
 
I didn't read others posts, but one warning I give you:

RAID IS NOT A BACKUP STRATEGY!!!

What are you going to do when a user deletes a file, or you lose two drives at once on your RAID array?
 
Kaos said:
If you're going to use over 2gb of ram or so youll need to switch to an Advanced/Datacenter edition of windows server, windows natively cannot address that much memory, datacenter is only capable of 16gb of ram (CMIIW)
Click to expand...
This is wrong. Windows Server 2003 Std Supports 8gb RAM, 2003 Ent Support 16, and I don't remember about Datacenter, but it's either 32 or 64.

Also, if you are going to have any more than 5 clients on the network and it's going to be a Windows network, Active Directory will be a must. This means you must use Windows XP Pro not home.
 
Yah..RAID in servers...is done mostly for the purpose of keeping the servers running, and the data intact, in case of "hardware failure". In other words..in case a drive fails on a server, the server keeps running, and the data is intact. Performance slows a bit...you replace the failed drive, the RAID rebuilds, and the server returns to normal performance.

It's not for the purpose of data backup...where one of your common needs would be to restore data to a prior state.
 
i didnt read all the posts, but ill throw this in ther just in case it wasnt mentioned. if your going to have 100+ clients, and setup a domain controller, you'll need xp pro. setting configs on 100+ machines is going to be a nightmare. u could let group policy do all that for you.

ill read the posts later and any opinions i can
 
The video card is way overkill for a server. Spec in something way cheaper.
Click to expand...

Most any high end mobo comes with integrated graphics and workstations get integrated aswell - unless people will need dual monitor support,the grab some low end radeon 7000 or 8500 or something less then $50.

Servers dont need high end $300 vid cards, they dont need $20 vid cards.

Workstations same thing. - unless the job demands 32d opengl work, integrated is fine - spend the money on something else.
 
The one thing I'll toss in, is toss out hubs.

Plus the networking is slightly confusing, you have a bunch of netgear switches, and some hubs, but no coreswitch ( or at least full gig managed switch for same purpose ) Unless you are running all the netgear ones in a literal stack as a core switch array.

Care to clarify?
 
I had to do something like this when I was in school.

One word: KISS

I ended up having the best one of my class, and I was the cheapest and in theory it probably would have worked best. No home built server's either.
 
what do you have the spools of coax for? you would want cat5e or cat6 for the network.
Jeff
 
Damn you jeff, now i had to reread his stuff again.

coax is a big no no, unless youre doing 10base2.

also you would need to hire a contractor or purchase the tools to terminate that fiber unless youre ordering preterminated which is a PITA to run unless it's just horizontal. Also keep in mind your connectivity cost might be off as well, jacks, patch panels etc.

Basically he's having you do a mini capstone project which is a good exercise in understanding how much work will be ahead of you.

My capstone project had 3 people to start that 2 others were added.

we had about 150 pages typed once we were done, I had typed/researched roughly 125-130 pages of that. Keep in mind there were 5 pages of invoices and a few pages of TOC and introductions...so I did 95% of the work alone, but we all passed. Problem is I didnt trust a single one of them to do any quality work.
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
I'm a fan of HP Proliants (dl360 and dl380 would be the ones I'd be using in your case..the 360's for infrastructure, the 380's for mail and database, storage). I've worked with Compaq/HP servers for most of my career...I find them excellent, with great fast easy support.
Click to expand...
Seconded. A few DL380 and DL360 chassis will take of most network needs. Ready to go right out of the box, and OEM service contracts to keep them running.
 
...you'll need xp pro.
Click to expand...
Definately, you NEVER want to run XP home in any sort of client/server environment. It's called XP Home for a reason.

As for the servers, we run both IBM and Dell, a few of each. I've had no problems with either, but I'd agree that Gold tech support is worth its weight in.. well gold. I can't tell you how much I prefer a Texan accent to an Indian one :) That being said, we've had no problems with our Dell servers, runing solid for 3+ years and added a new one last year. And they're CHEAP (comparitively).


Kaos said:
I would look into getting NIC's that can be teamed or replacing the NICs with fiber channel cards.
Click to expand...
Fibre Channel is not a networking standard, it's a periphreal interface standard... GB copper NICs are usually more than adequate for any server I've seen, if bandwidth is that big of an issue, most servers come with dual NICs that you can load balance.
 
I should really read your whole proposal before posting... here's my other 2 cents.

Hardware
5. Implementing gigibit switches at the workstation level is almost always a waste of money. A good quality managed 10/100 switch with a gigibit uplink is more than adequate.
6. Hubs are bad mmkay? Unmanaged switches are cheap.
8. As already said, RAID is not a backup solution. Tape library or SAN. Mucho $$. Don't know if its in the scope of your project, but also consider off-site backup of mission-critical data.

Software
2. Your're going to spend the money on exchange, but run thunderbird? Either run some other free/cheap SMTP/POP mail server, or install Outlook on the desktops. Personally I'd never run a POP client for mail in a corporate environment. But then again I might be a bit of a Microsoft fan :)
***Edit: Why 3 licenses of Exchange? Not really needed for ~150 clients. One exchange sever would be fine, you aren't going to need seperate bridgehead and mailbox servers with that few clients.
4. CALs - these are neccesary for every client that will be accessing each server. Exchange requires CALs, Windows Server in general requires CALs for every computer that will be accessing the server, no matter what the purpose. This is for EACH server, keep in mind. Huge cost if you haven't planned for it.

Connectivity
1. Fiber backbone from where to where? From server room switches to workgroup switches? Sure. Between servers? You really don't run fiber to a server. It's more of a between-switches sort of thing.
2. You're right on with $550, usually around that or even a bit less in most places. $1200 would be a ridiculous amount to pay for a T1.

Cabling..... Keep in mind stuff like patch cables from switch-servers and wall-desktops. They're actually quite expensive, unless you make them yourself. Which is hard on the fingers for that many :)

And finially.... Labor.
To put it nicely, you're sadly lacking on you labor estimates. Server configuration, workstation configuration, user setup(!), plus WAY more time if you're talking about running that fiber yourself, not even considering terminations. Are you assuming existing network infrastruture, or starting from scratch?

Ok, so that was more than 2 cents... and I may be overreacting for a theoretical project. But there it is anyway :) Keep in mind this is all contstructive criticism, and also that everyone has their own way of doing things!
 
Hardware's been covered to death so I'll try and stick to the software issues I saw:

1) 3 Exchange Server Licenses doesn't make sense with no Windows Server purchases. And you'll need CALS - possibly lots of CALS. Depends on how the clients are connecting to the servers and when, but you're going to need a number of CALS and a variety of types.

2) Thunderbird for e-mail would be a poor choice. If you're going to use Exchange don't use pop3. With your Exchange CALS you also get Outlook licenses so install and use that in Cached mode.

3) You need Active Directory. Dump XP Home for Pro and make sure you add atleast two server licenses with assosciated CALS. (this kinda goes with #1)

4) Anti-virus. You can't legaly use AVG for free in a business environment. (Its against the TOS) so pony up the cash and look at Symantec at worse or licenses of NOD32 or TrendMicro at best.

5) Backup software is a requirement. Just cuz you add a tape drive it doesn't do any good if you can't backup to it or restore from it. The built in Windows Backup works, but for an install this large you'll want the extras in Arcserve or BackupExec. Don't forget the proper agents. (Exchange, Open Files, SQL, etc)

6) (I know I said I was going to stick to software) Stick with tried and true HP laserprinters. Samsung/Lexmark/Dell Rebadged/etc may be cheaper but eventually you'll find somethign that doesn't work with them.

Thats a start. I'd also stop shoping at NewEgg. They are a great store for the home enthusiast or gamer, but for enterprise they are lacking. CDW will offer a much better selection of enterprise equipment in a one stop shop environment. (If this were real life I'd tell you to consider your local consultant shop as well, but it would be rude to waiste their time with this fictional setup)

 
I will update all this info when I get a chance.

But please keep adding if you can


Thanks for your guys time,
J32P2006
 
Integrated graphics live to fit into your scenario. The key part to remember here is buying the most expensive of everything isn't the way to go. You have to think about this from a business perspective, not enthusiast. Like previous poster said, start "shopping" up prices through CDW. Lots of good advice on this thread, you should compile it together and read it slowly and thouroughly.
 
SJConsultant said:
Gold level tech support all the way ;) :p
Click to expand...

Fuck it, blow the whole support budget and pay for platinum. Can't speak to the cost though I imagine it is quite expensive. Can speak to the service though, and it's excellent. Don't call them like I used to but it's still on speed dial. :)
 
100 - 150 clients, we don't know what they'll be running on the network, what the majority of the usage on the network will be..until that's known, so far, IMO, fiber does not need to be in the equation unless needed for long distance home runs.
 
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