Hardware for T3?

[jasonlitka]

The company I work for is looking at upgrading from the load-balanced DSL/Cable setup we currently have to a more reliable burstable T3 setup. We've got a quote from bandwidth.com but the price (through Broadwing) was without hardware. We were told that we were looking at a minimum of $3000 for the hardware, and that was only if we bought it used off of eBay.

Is the hardware required for a T3 really that expensive? I figured we were looking at something like that if we bought it new, not used. I don't need a lot of functionality, I'm just looking for the bare-minimum that will get the job done. Any suggestions?

 

[Fint]

What vendor? You'll also need to know if its a channelized DS3 or a full DS3 that is simply rate-limited. A T3 is a serious, medium-to-large business-class service; it is not like a cheap little DSL line, or even a moderaly-priced T1. Go search ebay for "NM-1T3/E3" and see what I mean.

You may find a pair of T1s, MLPPP'ed together, are just as reliable but MUCH cheaper (of course, each T1 is "only" 1.544 megabit/second, while a T3 can be as much as 45 megabit/second)

 

[Impulse25]

if you are buying new, expect to pay at least $3k just for the interface card to go in the router (HSSI or BNC connectors). You may be able to find some good deals on ebay though.

 

[niccoli]

The ISP I operate we have a DS-3 that runs into our Cisco 7606, purchased off ebay for $5,000 with dual DC power supplies, 1 GBIC Card, DS-3 card and redundant management cards...oh a dual 10/100 card that we don't use.

 

[jasonlitka]

Fair enough, I just assumed that it would be a bit cheaper than that.

Yeah, we've thought about the bonded T1 solution, but it really won't provide enough bandwidth to make it worth the money. Our immediate needs are about 4.5-5 Mbits/sec (for which I would need 4 T1s to make sure that they wern't always saturated), but we are probably going to scale up to around 8-10Mb/s within the next 6 months or so as we are planning on moving all of our hosted services from The Planet to our local site (none are real mission-critical, but all eat a decent amount of bandwidth). We're currently spending about $1000/mo there and are looking at getting another box (at a cost of another $400-500/month).

EDIT: What other vendors sell T3 hardware? There has to be something that works but that is cheaper than Cisco.

 

[XOR != OR]

We're doing something similar; A p2p ds3 between two locations.

Here's the hardware I found for it; http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=729327

 

[ZoT]

in the long run, what are 2 grand to a business.

go with cisco IMHO.

 

[Fint]

but we are probably going to scale up to around 8-10Mb/s within the next 6 months

In that case, a fractional T3 makes more sense than bonded/MLPPP'ed T1s.

 

[fireform90]

Have you explored colocation at a local datacenter?

 

[XOR != OR]

in the long run, what are 2 grand to a business.

go with cisco IMHO.

Why cisco? People are always saying go with cisco, but they never actually give reasons why

 

[fireform90]

Why cisco? People are always saying go with cisco, but they never actually give reasons why

Reliability.

Once you've experienced the joy of crap switching by companies like netgear, belkin, linksys and some of the other crap people try to use inside a mission critical situation you will understand.

Though, there are many other options besides cisco for high quality gear.

 

[XOR != OR]

Reliability.

Once you've experienced the joy of crap switching by companies like netgear, belkin, linksys and some of the other crap people try to use inside a mission critical situation you will understand.

Though, there are many other options besides cisco for high quality gear.

Must be the high end gear then, because I've had a few pix's fail on me. Although I have to say their support is probably the best in the industry, I'm having a hard time justifying the extra cost.

 

[figgie]

Reliability.

Once you've experienced the joy of crap switching by companies like netgear, belkin, linksys and some of the other crap people try to use inside a mission critical situation you will understand.

Though, there are many other options besides cisco for high quality gear.

Extreme networks pops to mind quickly.

 

[ZoT]

Why cisco? People are always saying go with cisco, but they never actually give reasons why

Reliability (whether something else can match it is not the point, I havent' seen anything do any BETTER in this category)

Support (again, whether a tiny company has a great support staff doesn't mean much, you know you can get support for any cisco stuff in a heartbeat if you are willing to pay for it, not only for hardware, but IOS configs and also from many other resources on the net).

Cost (it really isn't that much, what are you going to save when going with a cheaper product? seriously, 3, 5 , 10 grand ??? That is nothing when you consider it's an investment with the least amount of risk and for several years (and lets be honest, probably 5-10 years unless someone is really set on keeping the latest and greatest stuff only and keeps updating, I've seen some old old cisco routers still chugging along).
So lets say 5 years and you save 10 grand , whoop-dee-doo... if you're lucky and your cheaper stuff (mind you not "cheap" as in bad, but cheaper) fails just once you have most likely wasted more than you saved over the years.

Just my opinion, but in the end if you look at yearly profits and you see how much you're saving with cheaper gear and the possibility, even if remote, of the gear having more issues then I just can't justify not going with cisco.

 

[sandmanx]

If you are in a big city, you might want to check with the cable company as well. We are currently moving from a single T1 to a 10Mbps link from Time Warner on their fiber loop in the Houston area. It's much cheaper than even the lowest burstable t3 in this area. I'm not sure what is avaibable in other areas though.

 

[jasonlitka]

in the long run, what are 2 grand to a business.

go with cisco IMHO.

$2000 is close to a month's service and the $3000 we were quoted for used hardware is more than a month's service.

In that case, a fractional T3 makes more sense than bonded/MLPPP'ed T1s.

Which is the same comclusion that we came to. I may look into a T1 for temporary use (it should be sufficient for our VOIP service), just to get a feel for the company who may eventually be providing our faster service.

Have you explored colocation at a local datacenter?

We're a ways out of Philadelphia, so that isn't the easiest choice. What I did find was going to cost me close to that of the burstable T3. For example, most places wanted ~$80 per rack unit, plus ~$150 per Mbps (for a total of $2140 for 8U @ 10Mbps, about $60 less than the cost of the burstable T3 here, but much less useful and convenient). On top of that, they had setup fees that ranged anywhere up to $1500.

Must be the high end gear then, because I've had a few pix's fail on me. Although I have to say their support is probably the best in the industry, I'm having a hard time justifying the extra cost.

This is the same issue I'm having. A 3x00 Cisco router seems like overkill. There has to be something cheaper, in the $1000-2000 range that will work just fine. I'm looking to set it up and then never touch it again.

Reliability (whether something else can match it is not the point, I havent' seen anything do any BETTER in this category)

Support (again, whether a tiny company has a great support staff doesn't mean much, you know you can get support for any cisco stuff in a heartbeat if you are willing to pay for it, not only for hardware, but IOS configs and also from many other resources on the net).

Cost (it really isn't that much, what are you going to save when going with a cheaper product? seriously, 3, 5 , 10 grand ??? That is nothing when you consider it's an investment with the least amount of risk and for several years (and lets be honest, probably 5-10 years unless someone is really set on keeping the latest and greatest stuff only and keeps updating, I've seen some old old cisco routers still chugging along).
So lets say 5 years and you save 10 grand , whoop-dee-doo... if you're lucky and your cheaper stuff (mind you not "cheap" as in bad, but cheaper) fails just once you have most likely wasted more than you saved over the years.

Just my opinion, but in the end if you look at yearly profits and you see how much you're saving with cheaper gear and the possibility, even if remote, of the gear having more issues then I just can't justify not going with cisco.

Where did $10000 come from? As far as I'm concerned, I'm interested in something that will do the job as cheaply as possible but still be reasonably reliable. I don't care if the router gives out in 3 years instead of 5. If it does, we'll buy another one. In any case, who knows where the business will be in 3 years. We may need something faster at that point, or we may not need it at all...

If you are in a big city, you might want to check with the cable company as well. We are currently moving from a single T1 to a 10Mbps link from Time Warner on their fiber loop in the Houston area. It's much cheaper than even the lowest burstable t3 in this area. I'm not sure what is avaibable in other areas though.

We're not. I've got Fiber at home (15/2) and Verizon is close to bringing FIOS service to this area for business (your choice of 15/2, 5/5, or 30/5), but I really don't think that that is a reliable service, not when compared to a T3. I may try it out though to replace my flaky-ass DSL line (which, I should add, is down right now).

 

[ZoT]

$2000 is close to a month's service and the $3000 we were quoted for used hardware is more than a month's service.

exactly, chump change if you consider the hardware will run for a few years right? . If you can justify spending $2000/month on your connection then spending as much on hardware shouldn't be a problem. My corporations connection bills add up to a lot more than that FYI. Except I can afford relatively cheaper cisco hardware as it's many T1's spread over a lot of locations, you'll be pushing serious bandwidth through one link. I would really get the best you can find. Overkill can be a good thing IMHO.

This is the same issue I'm having. A 3x00 Cisco router seems like overkill. There has to be something cheaper, in the $1000-2000 range that will work just fine. I'm looking to set it up and then never touch it again.

If you don't want to touch it again... get cisco ;-)

Where did $10000 come from? As far as I'm concerned, I'm interested in something that will do the job as cheaply as possible but still be reasonably reliable. I don't care if the router gives out in 3 years instead of 5. If it does, we'll buy another one. In any case, who knows where the business will be in 3 years. We may need something faster at that point, or we may not need it at all....

read the entire thread, it was part of my discussion with the other person. Ok so you want to spend $1000 instead of $3000 and use it over the period of approximately 3 years which I would say is quite reasonable period of time.

except.... I don't see the logic, $2000 savings over 3 years , you're saving $55 a month! why worry about it, not to mention after 3 years I bet you can use that cisco router elsewhere or pawn it off for $800/1000. Again, no offense but the savings just isn't worth it.

heck even if I assume you spent $5000 on the equipment and didn't buy used junk, then you're saving whopping $138/month !

will you buy two of everything by the way? because if it craps out on you and you're down even for a day that might offset bottom line real quick.

Not trying to be an ass, but we're talking about insignificant cost savings when you're considering paying for a T3.

 

[Asgorath]

I doubt this would work for you, but a monowall with the proper interfaces on a reliable computer with redundant power and a CF card. Should be cheap enough to build that if it goes out you can have an extra one on hand. For a T3 look at putting at least a 500Mhz processor and while you're at it put a dedicated VPN hardware card.

sangoma A301 T3 Card
Soekris 1401 VPN Card

That is a hardcore router, firewall, and T3 interface you'd be building right there. Rock stable running FreeBSD (monowall), and easily upgradable to fit your needs. Could use it as a VPN endpoint too.