[H] Site Design 2K4 windowed with cold cathodes and toggle switches.

haiku

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Jan 25, 2004
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No POPUP Windows will be used for the new [H] site. This was a joke.

Hi, I am being commissioned by Kyle to redesign [H]ard|OCP.com. Hopefully the mods don't mind this topic being in this forum. I just wanted to try and find the highest visibility forum for this discussion. Please move it to another forum if you feel it's appropriate.

Typically I don't show my portfolio to anonymous people on the internet because of an incident that happened on UseNet a few years ago that caused me problems with a client. However, it's pretty well known (among even tens of people!!) that I did www.Shacknews.com and some other work for Kyle that he was pleased with, so you can use that as a reference for some of my work.

Kyle and I have discussed a lot of ideas back and forth and are both pretty psyched to do this project. For me it's a really good challenge because you have one of the largest, most vocal and loyal tech condensed tech communities on the net and everyone here is into ideas like modifying, tweaking, improving, pushing further etc. If I can create something that people here will like, then I consider that a successful design. The purpose of this thread is to discuss things you would like to see, things you wouldn't like to see, things that "would be better if you just did this..." and bash on Shacknews and tell me how shitty it is. This is totally open to bombard me with ideas, suggestions, and feedback about the current [H] that I can take into consideration as I start sketching out the [H] of 2k4.

The last place I like to go to talk about a project is the audience. It has never once proved to be helpful in the actual production. However, Kyle has a lot of pride and faith in this community and suggested I come here to discuss it, and since my goal is to make something that he and the rest of [H] loves, well it can't hurt. With Shacknews if I were to do this, it would have been a disaster, so I am hoping that we can all discuss a lot of good ideas and that I can start this knowing what the general hive mind of [H] is going to dig. That said, I just wanted to lay down a few points to note when replying:

  • Don't be offended if you suggest something awesome and it doesn't happen. Even if I think it's awesome and I don't do it, there is most likely a very good reason for it.
  • Don't be offended if you suggest something awesome and it doesn't happen. Even if I think it's awesome and I don't do it, there is most likely a very good reason for it.
  • If you are suggesting something that boils down to programming functionality, that isn't really my department, but it's still good to hear those ideas since a site redesign is as good a time as any to think about that stuff.
  • Not using flash anywhere (ads don't count, not my gig!). Fuck flash.
  • Not making the site look like a case mod. Yes it would be awesome for two days then everyone would get annoyed at the toggle switch navigation and the rotating fan in the upper corner.
  • Feel free to point out any sites that have a nice aesthetic vernacular that you dig, but remember that [H] has it's own specific brand and identity by which the new site will be based on.
  • I'm probably not going to go into detail discussing my ideas and plans. I want your thoughts without any interference from concepts that you form from my ideas.
  • The homepage is actually going to be a series of pop-up windows. The navigation in one pop-up, the articles in another, the ads all in one giant pop-up... you get the idea. The concept is that you can move the windows around your desktop in any configuration you want so that really [H] is always custom for YOU. <-- This was a joke!!!

I greatly look forward to this potential disaster of a conversation! Kyle: <3 <3

-haiku
 
Is this for real? :) If it is, good luck with redoing the site, it could use a good face lift.
 
Hello and welcome! When I brought up the topic of a redesign in December, Kyle was interested, but all of my layouts tend to be clean, structured, without the use of many images, And that just isn't what the [H] should be. When he suggested going with you, and that you had done Shcknews, I was looking forward to seeing what you came up with.

One thing, if you are talking about actual 'popup windows' in your last point, from a developer standpoint, I would suggest against it. This is due to most of us here now using alternative browsers, or IE with the Google toolbar, to block popups.

Anyways, it will be great to see what you come out with for the layout, and then helping to convert it over to code. The plan is to move a lot more toward CSS, but maybe not yet time for the complete layout to be CSS based (yes, I can already hear all the people from the W&P forum moan). :p
 
Search that not only gives your results in reviews, tech news, etc. But it also gives you results for the forums. Seeing as how they are related to eachother in a little fashion.
The ability to ACTIVELY click to get pictures. Having the ability to read only text is a plus for slower connections and will keep the traffic for them running smoother.
Discussions linked to actual reviews to allow for more discussion of the topic from the [H] community.
Live chat for all [H] members. Possibly a downloadable IM created for [H] registered members. I know its way out there but you wanted ideas.
:) and my mind is always going off on those tangents lol.

edit: may I suggest sticking this thread as most of these people on the forums are [H] loyals that frequent this site please sticky to get more ideas.
vote sticky 1 ..
 
DoD restricts use of Java and ActiveX. i am sure many other organizations do as well. It is likely that a few readers check the [H] from work. I am sure you are doing some calculations from the server logs and hit sources to help figure out what types of demographics you are serving to and whatnot, but I wanted to point that out.

Personally I dislike popups, and with current browsers killing them off, as well as the next version of IE, it could be a shortlived concept.

Please, please, please don't kill the search function. it seems to be permanently gone from the forums, so even though I rarely use the one on [H] it lets me reminisce about when it was on the forums.

:)
 
Oh yeah, people here don't know me.

The pop-up thing was a complete joke!!! Total sarcasm! Just poking fun at poor web design.
 
I'd like to see a very "clean" website with the option of choosing a liight or dark background. Also, Make it as efficent as possible so that necesary tasks such as a search box will be able to be implemented.

Finally, totally xhtml compliant :cool:
 
please get rid of this blank/red colour scheme.

Black backgrounds seem so amateurish and make this site hard to navigate at work without being noticed.

edit: just checked shacknews and noticed it was slow and had a black background *yuck*, hope you do better work with [H].
 
Originally posted by Northern

The ability to ACTIVELY click to get pictures. Having the ability to read only text is a plus for slower connections and will keep the traffic for them running smoother.
...
you can set it in your browser, to load or not load pictures.
(At least, in Opera you can, and i think in Netscape / Mozilla as well, not too sure about Firebird...and i dont' give a fuck about IE.)
 
BUT!!! are you gonna test it with stuff other than IE? please?

I work on a PC and it has Mozilla, IE, and Firebird installed on it.
Right next to my PC is a 17inch Powerbook with Safari, Camino, Mozilla, and IE on it.

So yes, I am going to get this thing right in every browser. And the construction will most likely be a general mix of traditional HTML and some advanced CSS.
 
put the News above featured articles, or somewhere higher than the articles


i always come to the site and think that they never update their news
 
Originally posted by haiku
Oh yeah, people here don't know me.

The pop-up thing was a complete joke!!! Total sarcasm! Just poking fun at poor web design.

LOL, you got me! :D
 
I like the current design. I would only like an off topic area of the forums though. That was always fun.

Having the stickies listed at the left hand part of the screen below all the functions like search and such would be a nice feature, so that when people visit the site they may see a topic of interest.

I would like having the news/review more compacted so i can see topics listed without scrolling. Oh and if you do use anyones ideas, maybe make a post giving them credit?
 
Originally posted by Carnival Forces
you can set it in your browser, to load or not load pictures.
(At least, in Opera you can, and i think in Netscape / Mozilla as well, not too sure about Firebird...and i dont' give a fuck about IE.)

every recent or current browser can do this.
 
Originally posted by ullyeus
please get rid of this blank/red colour scheme.

Black backgrounds seem so amateurish and make this site hard to navigate at work without being noticed.

edit: just checked shacknews and noticed it was slow and had a black background *yuck*, hope you do better work with [H].
re: not being able to browse at work
www.ghostzilla.com

Originally posted by haiku
I work on a PC and it has Mozilla, IE, and Firebird installed on it.
Right next to my PC is a 17inch Powerbook with Safari, Camino, Mozilla, and IE on it.

So yes, I am going to get this thing right in every browser. And the construction will most likely be a general mix of traditional HTML and some advanced CSS.
YAY!
 
make the news scrollable in it's own right. like so ya don't have to scroll down a huge page.
 
Just since it looks like some people didnt get it after the first two times:

haiku Oh yeah, people here don't know me. The pop-up thing was a complete joke!!! Total sarcasm! Just poking fun at poor web design.
 
Originally posted by Northern
1. Search that not only gives your results in reviews, tech news, etc. But it also gives you results for the forums. Seeing as how they are related to eachother in a little fashion.

2. The ability to ACTIVELY click to get pictures. Having the ability to read only text is a plus for slower connections and will keep the traffic for them running smoother.

3. Discussions linked to actual reviews to allow for more discussion of the topic from the [H] community.


4. Live chat for all [H] members.

5. Possibly a downloadable IM created for [H] registered members. I know its way out there but you wanted ideas.
:) and my mind is always going off on those tangents lol.

edit: may I suggest sticking this thread as most of these people on the forums are [H] loyals that frequent this site please sticky to get more ideas.
vote sticky 1 ..

1. The [H] searh engine got overhauled last week and now kicks much ass, give it a try. The forums and the [H] will stay seperate entities. A new forum is finally on the way, major changes here soon.

2. We do a great job at thumbnailing and keep modem users in mind. Just some things NEED graphics in them and are incomplete witout them. I do not see a format change coming in that area.

3. I do not like the slashdot style of comments that many sites use. They end up being poorly moderated and full of idiots saying idiotic things and I do not want those people to be able to use the [H] as a playground to get attention in. With the new forum software, we WILL be linking to threads for specific content feedback and discussion.

4. This cannot be controlled and will not be done.

5. Hmmm, I do not know what this will accomplish. maybe a place to in the forums to swap ICQ numbers and such?
 
Originally posted by ullyeus
please get rid of this blank/red colour scheme.

Black backgrounds seem so amateurish and make this site hard to navigate at work without being noticed.

edit: just checked shacknews and noticed it was slow and had a black background *yuck*, hope you do better work with [H].

The black background is here to stay, sorry. That is my call.

Our trademark colors are here to stay as well although there will be some major changes made in how they are utilized.
 
Originally posted by mtbaird
i always come to the site and think that they never update their news

Huh? We clearly date all news posts. Can you explain please?
 
Originally posted by Wixard
I like the current design. I would only like an off topic area of the forums though. That was always fun.

I would like having the news/review more compacted so i can see topics listed without scrolling. Oh and if you do use anyones ideas, maybe make a post giving them credit?

There will never again be an off-topic area in our forums. Sorry, we do not have the resources to moderate it properly.

Cramming everything above the fold is pretty tricky as there is usually a LOT of information there. Your idea is something I have wanted for a while, but not been something we have been able to make work. I have been responsible for the site's basic layout since 1997. I have given Mike NO FEEDBACK on exact layout, so I am waiting to see what he delivers.
 
Originally posted by HRslammR
make the news scrollable in it's own right. like so ya don't have to scroll down a huge page.

Interesting though. Have it in its own scrollable "frame"? Bad thing would be wasting the pixels for the scroll bar. I still would to keep it viewable at 800x600.

Do you guys care about 800x600 usage?

Do you others care about scrollable news?
 
This may be crazy hard but, however you design the site keep using php, then maybe make an option to choose your skins, and allow people to make their own skins etc, completely re-arranging and changing how the content is displayed ina very open format.

I'm thinking kinda like the way my DOT yahoo DOT com allows you to choose and upload skins, have verious elements as veritual windows that can be closed, moved, and otherwise customized to hell and back.

I mean myYahoo is a portal and so is the [H] so this would be a very logical step I think, and worth it if you're already looking at a mammoth undertaking like redesigning as solid a site as the big [H].

Just my $0.02USD, feel free to laugh now.
 
I'd like to see a very "clean" website with the option of choosing a liight or dark background. Also, Make it as efficient as possible so that necessary tasks such as a search box will be able to be implemented.

Finally, totally xhtml compliant

Just to echo what Kyle already said, the black background is staying for sure. There is really no question about it. It's too integral to the [H] branding and identity to go without. To do otherwise would create a huge problem for maintaining the integrity of the branding. Unlike some other sites of this nature, [H] only exists in the web medium. Every aspect of the site design then becomes critical of the site branding. There is no other visual point of reference for your audience, and given that the site has always had this one major key visual landmark, changing it would be too drastic.

Also, no, no full xhtml compliance. Sorry it's just not compatible with some of the older browsers and doing a full xhtml site really cramps where you can go visually. At least for me it does. We'll all be there eventually, just not in this immediate generation of broad web design. Probably the next though.

Ok, Scrollable News:

Right now I think this is not the way to go as far as news presentation. It would require the use of an Iframe for a key piece of the sites content and on the homepage, I think it would look rather cheap like that. We don't want [H] to look like so many people's weblogs or a cam girl site, you know? The web scrolls and that is just the fact of the matter, so you might as well scroll the whole page and go past other content as well instead of just localizing it to news. You wouldn't be getting that much more information above the fold that it would be worth it. Plus it brings up compatibility and site scalability issues.

As of right now, in my head, I do think there are some possible solutions to giving an equal sense of priority and placement to the Headlines and the Features. It could look too cluttered though. I think there is a lot of real estate being given to the features that could be drastically cut down while still making them a prominent player in the front content. The icons used, for example, are probably 35% larger than they need to be and suck up quite a bit of dead space. In any case, this was something I was thinking about myself so it's good to see it being brought up here as that makes it a matter of importance to focus on.

If we move up to the 1024x768 web standard, the minimum size for the content width will be 955 pixels, compared to the 760pixels we are at now. This is obviously a nice amount of screen real estate made free. The pros to doing this re cleaner ad placement, more info above the fold, it's forward thinking. The web can't stay at 800x600 forever and heavy content sites like [H] cater to a crowd that is all about pushing things. Moving up to the higher standard seems like a logical step for [H].

The cons: Not everyone browses with a full screen and some scale their browsers down to just a little bit wider than 800x600, so now they would have to keep a bigger browser open to view [H]. Also, as more sites start to push up the minimum standard, ad people will want bigger ads. While not a current problem, it is bound to happen eventually, so we may just be right back where we started in terms of fighting for real estate. This is really an invalid con as of right now, but it's something to think about. Personally I think the entire web needs to move to 1024x768. We absolutely have to stop shoving shit into website designs in a very illogical manner just because of an invisible standard that isn't really a standard to begin with. It's Kyle's call on this, and I will make a good looking design work in any resolution. But the option should be scrutinized.

Skinnable [H]
I can say without too much deliberation that this is not going to happen. I had thought I might try and do something like this for Shacknews, but in the end, it causes too many problems. For one, you are adding too much new programming development to the site and we aren't really doing that right now, this is all about design. Then there is the issue of branding and identity and the more you let people change that, the more of your identity you lose. Even though that end user is the only one who sees that, there are other end users out there just like them and before long people are swapping skins with each other and the official branded design of the website just loses it's authority. The solution to that would be to only have skins that were approved for use and people could select them from a drop down or something, but that just creates more work and more problems. In the end this is really just a bells and whistle feature that doesn't do much to push the success of the site or grow the community. It isn't something that people would specifically come here for. Certainly I would love to change the order of Time Magazine and pick my own cover out, but the things they pick to prevent me from reading it. (Ok I don't really read Time but still).
 
Originally posted by FrgMstr
Huh? We clearly date all news posts. Can you explain please?

I think I know what he means.
At a quick glance sometimes you could miss that the news may have been updated. The articles take up a nice chunk of the top.

link

I know I sometimes miss a newspost.

Maybe organizing the ads better, moving all ads into a single column. How about the [H] menu to the top?
 
I'd like to see the archives go back further. Like if I click for example, Reviews, then it goes CPU, Video Cards, Chipsets, etc you know the deal. If I go to video card it only goes back to August 2003 at the moment. Make it go back at least a year, I was looking for a review on my 9500 Pro last night and it took me longer than I enjoyed to find it.
 
Originally posted by odoe
I think I know what he means.
At a quick glance sometimes you could miss that the news may have been updated. The articles take up a nice chunk of the top.

link

I know I sometimes miss a newspost.

Maybe organizing the ads better, moving all ads into a single column. How about the [H] menu to the top?

Understood. Some HAVE to scroll to see if there is new news. I will keep this in mind as we move forward, but no promises.
 
I can almost understand the identity thing, especially from kyles point of view.

But atleast maybe having a better option for balancing the premium articles with the headlines/news posts a little better would be good.

And to address the 800x600 question, no I don't think you need to keep building it for that small.

Although for me making anything mroe then 10x7 a minimum is still not a good idea as I often have AIM/sysmetrix, custom taskbars ala litestep etc that take up the other useable portions of my 12x10 and 16x12 setups. I think many people are the same way, but 800x600 is still kinda too small.

Hopes that helps.
 
Originally posted by Mojo
I'd like to see the archives go back further. Like if I click for example, Reviews, then it goes CPU, Video Cards, Chipsets, etc you know the deal. If I go to video card it only goes back to August 2003 at the moment. Make it go back at least a year, I was looking for a review on my 9500 Pro last night and it took me longer than I enjoyed to find it.


I am really glad you brought this to my attention as it is supposed to archive back to the first article in time. It is broken currently. This must have happened week before last. We moved a ton of stuff around. I will get this fixed. thanks!!!
 
Originally posted by FrgMstr
Interesting though. Have it in its own scrollable "frame"? Bad thing would be wasting the pixels for the scroll bar. I still would to keep it viewable at 800x600.

Do you guys care about 800x600 usage?

Do you others care about scrollable news?

Its not like I have my resolution at 800x600 but I dont usually have browser windows maximized either.

Really up to you guys though. The only thing I was hoping for was something to get rid of the black background, I dont even visit the main hardocp site.
 
Originally posted by ullyeus
Its not like I have my resolution at 800x600 but I dont usually have browser windows maximized either.

Really up to you guys though. The only thing I was hoping for was something to get rid of the black background, I dont even visit the main hardocp site.

ditto
 
With 17" LCDs at 1280 x 1024 native, and those becoming commonplace going forward, a 1024 x 768 browser layout would be welcome.

Since I use tabbed browsing I often run full screen anyway. Both on the LCD monitor and on the 1400 x 1050 laptop display.

The current site is tolerably navigable with my Treo 600 which is a plus. Having something like mobile.hardocp.com for handhelds would be a very nice add-on.
 
Originally posted by ullyeus
The only thing I was hoping for was something to get rid of the black background, I dont even visit the main hardocp site.


What color SHOULD the background be?

Do you not visit the site because of what exactly? Please describe your issue in detail. We can't fix it if we do not know it is broken. "get rid of black" does not fill in all the blanks for us.
 
Maybe organizing the ads better, moving all ads into a single column. How about the [H] menu to the top?

Horizontal Navigation is most certainly a direction I am exploring. I think it could really work and free up a lot of real estate for some pretty interesting layout where everything can get the space it deserves. Also, in talking to some people about the project, just a few friends here and there, I have gotten remarks along the lines of "Oh yeah I came across that in google and checked out some reviews" or "yeah I read the reviews there every now and then" so I want to make that reviews nav with the flyout get a little bit more attention. I mean that is a wealth of comprehensive hardware information there and it would be nice to call that out. A horizontal set navigation can really allow for that, as well as a cooler menu system.

As for the ads, you have to really keep in mind that advertising is very much about placement and exclusivity. You cannot simply just shove all the ads together to get them out of the way to design the site in a more effective manner. The ads have to be part of the design and they need to retain their placement and their exclusivity. In fact they are one of the first things that go in. The goal is to have them be part of the design in that they aren't intruisive but they aren't invisible either.
 
Originally posted by FrgMstr
2. We do a great job at thumbnailing and keep modem users in mind. Just some things NEED graphics in them and are incomplete witout them. I do not see a format change coming in that area.
Yes, you do a great job with the thumbnails. :) I would say, if anything, they could be just a little bit bigger. Sometimes it's hard to tell what something is at 60x45 pixels (though I'll admit that can get me to click on it). The thumbnails aren’t slowing it down, it’s the sheer volume/size of the total images. I’m looking at things from a dialup perspective here. :p I’ve seen the main OCP page at 350K before. Currently:

WebPage Statistics:
http://hardocp.com

Total WebPage Size_ 71602 (bytes)_
Visible Text Size_ 28797 (bytes)_
Size of HTML Tags _ 42805 (bytes)_
Text to HTML Ratio_ 40.71%_
Number of Images_ 51 _
Largest Image Size_ 29137 (bytes)_
Size of All Images_ 215332 (bytes)_
Grand Total: Images+Html=_ 286934 (bytes)_

Originally posted by Warriorprophet
And to address the 800x600 question, no I don't think you need to keep building it for that small.
Well, I, for one, have less than perfect eyesight and run 800x600. I appreciate not having to scroll horizontally in order to read the site and the fact they made it scaleable according to visitor rez. :)

Personally, I hate it when a site tells me I need a specific browser/version/rez to "properly" view it.
 
how about possibly a small box somewhere showing what was last posted in the forums?

Along those lines, how about doing something like alot of the other hardware sites do where they open up the article as a topic of discussion in their forums, usually with a link below.

I would not expect something like that with the daily updates, but for feature articles it would definitely be used.
 
Originally posted by FrgMstr
1. The [H] searh engine got overhauled last week and now kicks much ass, give it a try. The forums and the [H] will stay seperate entities. A new forum is finally on the way, major changes here soon.

2. We do a great job at thumbnailing and keep modem users in mind. Just some things NEED graphics in them and are incomplete witout them. I do not see a format change coming in that area.

3. I do not like the slashdot style of comments that many sites use. They end up being poorly moderated and full of idiots saying idiotic things and I do not want those people to be able to use the [H] as a playground to get attention in. With the new forum software, we WILL be linking to threads for specific content feedback and discussion.

4. This cannot be controlled and will not be done.

5. Hmmm, I do not know what this will accomplish. maybe a place to in the forums to swap ICQ numbers and such?

Just ideas I threw out there man. I can see now most of them were flops but it was just brainstorming. The #3 last part where you can link threads for specific content feedback is something I liked. You review a product and we all read it then there always seems to be other people who have bought it and can tell us more. Nice to have that.

The rest of my suggestions just junk them the more I think of them. You do load relatively ok but then again like I posted elsewhere there is that small population out there (me only probably) that is 21k and 396 processor lol. Your right though its ok and once I upgrade it will be fine.

White seems to be pretty common background across the internet and I think you could do that for your [H]ard OCP site. Would give it a more mainstream look I guess. The scrolling news is a nice idea from others. Is it possible to have the newest articles (Reviews) and news beside eachother at top and both scrollable (within a decent resolution I guess).

p.s. Know they are seperate but it possible to have our cookies when we log in also have option of saving the forum color of choice instead of black we could save it in our options?
 
I dunno if you're gonna completely change this up in the new site design, but the top of the page where the top banner ad is could use a little bit of work.

The space around the ad seems to be designed for a 480px or so wide browser window, and the texture is only in small bands on each side. Maybe you could put something small beside the ads in the place of that unused maroon expanse (headlines, news, maybe something like the Planet plug at the top, or maybe like the thing that currently says "give to woundedwarriors.org", most recent forum post, other stuff that is not necessarily a necessary viewable object such as an ad) and make it viewable only to those of us that run at decently productive resolutions eg. >6x8 . I'm not a fan of leaving the 8x6 people behind even though I do not run at 8x6. There are enough places like school computers, friends computers, public libraries, etc. that do not run at higher resolutions, and to leave them behind would be a crime. However, I do think that since this is a site whose readers are mostly pc fanatics, you should cater to them. They are the ones that click on the ads, and the ones that frequent the site.

I'm gonna have to vote for a site layout that provides for 8x6 but does take advantage of higher resolutions.
 
Originally posted by FrgMstr
There will never again be an off-topic area in our forums. Sorry, we do not have the resources to moderate it properly.

Cramming everything above the fold is pretty tricky as there is usually a LOT of information there. Your idea is something I have wanted for a while, but not been something we have been able to make work. I have been responsible for the site's basic layout since 1997. I have given Mike NO FEEDBACK on exact layout, so I am waiting to see what he delivers.

no mayham :(


lol didn't expect it


BRING BACK THE STROKABLE MENU!@!@!@!@ :D


overall, just don't make it look like shacknews.

form follows function

whats the news on this new forum? new Vbulliten? server?
 
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