GTX 460 = ATI ?

[blastingcap]

I disagree. You should not compare high-end cooling solutions (the $345 Vapor-X is the highest price on Newegg I see for 5850) with the lower-end cooling solutions on the GTX 460's. A big chunk of that $345 is going towards proprietary cooling tech. Also you should compare 1GB vs. 1GB cards to keep things even, and the cheapest 1GB GTX 460 is listed at $229, not $199.

Cheapest 1 GB GTX 460 = $229.99 w/ free shipping (multiple companies listed at this price)
Cheapest 1 GB HD 5850 = $259.99 after rebate w/ free shipping http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127500&cm_re=hd_5850-_-14-127-500-_-Product

To OP, here's your unbiased answer:

768 MB GTX 460 = ATI HD 5835 (in many cases ~12% slower than HD 5850 but that changes as you go up in resolution, to the point where it's more like a HD 5830)

1 GB GTX 460 = ATI HD 5840 (roughly ~12% slower than HD 5850, stock vs. stock speeds)

overclocked 1 GB GTX 460 = stock HD 5850

overclocked 1 GB GTX 460 < overclocked HD 5850 (by probably roughly the same percentage, ~12%)

Edited to add: at higher resolutions the gap grows, e.g., 1 GB GTX 460 is 15% slower than HD 5850, and the gap is 23% at 2560x1600.

a quick newegg search shows that the cheapest 5850 is $280 and the most expensive is $350. whereas the cheapest 460 is $199 and the most expensive is $270 for the oced galaxy card.

argue what you want, but the cheapest 460 to cheapest 5850 comes out to an $80 price difference. even the non overclocked versions of the 1gb 460 are $50 cheaper than the cheapest 5850.

a quick googling found passmarks video card benchmark scoreboard listing the 5850 at 2409 points and the 460 at 2254 points. according the this particular benchmark that is less than a 7% performance increase for an 18% premium. i realize that the scores may be different from other benchmarks and in-game testing, but im just doing a rough comparison.

clearly you need to reexamine your definition of value. that is a significant amount of extra money to pay for a not so significant amount of performance. couple that with the fact that the 768mb 460 seems to be within 1-2fps of the 1gb version at stock clocks and even beats the 1gb in certain games bringing the value of the 5850 down even further.

you speak of overclocking the 5850 while forgetting the key fact that the 460 overclocks like a beast as well. you should also remember that most users will not overclock their cards.

all that taken into consideration i would rather have a 5850 because it is faster, however i cannot justify the extra $50 when i consider that i also have to upgrade my psu. if we are talking about value then there really is no comparison: the 460 wins hands down.

 

[herfalerf]

the 18% price premium figure was comparing the $229 price of the 1gb card to the price of the cheapest 5850 which was listed at 279, however i missed the MIR. i tend not to consider them when i am pricing out items before i buy because they are not always honored. assuming that you get your MIR then the 5850 is about an equal value performance to dollar.

and rumx, as far as the power consumption thing goes, i wasnt even talking about the 5850, i was talking about the 5830, read my original post. certain models of the 5830 use more power at load than certain models of the 460 as per the hardocp review. some use more so i was partially correct. pay more attention to what you are reading before you start calling bullshit all over the place. the unprovoked hostility is pretty immature in the first place, if you didnt agree with what i said it was simply a matter of correcting me and moving on.

this really has absolutely nothing to do with my point, which is that 460 is a better VALUE, even if the 5850 is faster overall. according to the benchmarks i have read on all of but few games the difference in performance does not match up with the difference in price. that is my point, period.

 

[blastingcap]

I quoted you for using misleading pricing. You can't seriously compare a Vapor-X 5850 with lower-end cooling used on GTX 460s, nor should you have used 768MB cards to get prices, when it's most fair to compare 1 GB vs. 1 GB cards.

$260 vs. $230 isn't an $80 gap like you said, it's $30. At $260 vs. $230 it's a dead heat as far as price/performance ratio over all resolutions, and the HD 5850 is actually a much better value at higher resolutions (Techpowerup rated 5850s at 12% faster than GTX 460's over all resolutions and you can see resolution-dependent performance here: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_GTX_460_1_GB/31.html ). Note that at 1920x1200, the 1GB GTX 460 is 15% slower than a 1GB HD 5850, and the gap grows to 23% at 2560x1600.

By the way, the prices I looked up just 5 minutes ago so it's possible you looked up older numbers before some of the 5850's started going on sale (one of them went for $250 earlier this week). I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you used outdated $numbers rather than intentionally misleading on that front, but you seriously have to compare 1GB vs. 1GB and similar cooling solutions, instead of 768MB vs. 1GB and standard coolers vs. Vapor-X.

not really sure why you quoted me there, i dont recall ever stating that the 5850 was not faster than the 460.

and rumx, as far as the power consumption thing goes, i wasnt even talking about the 5850, i was talking about the 5830, read my original post. certain models of the 5830 use more power at load than certain models of the 460 as per the hardocp review. some use more so i was partially correct. pay more attention to what you are reading before you start calling bullshit all over the place. the unprovoked hostility is pretty immature in the first place, if you didnt agree with what i said it was simply a matter of correcting me and moving on.

this really has absolutely nothing to do with my point, which is that 460 is a better VALUE, even if the 5850 is faster overall. according to the benchmarks i have read on all of but few games the difference in performance does not match up with the difference in price. that is my point, period.

 

[Lorien]

If $20 is a huge difference for you, then you have no business considering any of the video cards being discussed here. More so when you spew uninformed drivel like needing to upgrade your PSU for a HD5850 when it consumes less power and delivers better performance than the GTX460.

I smell a troll, so I suggest people stop feeding him.

P.S: By the way the price gap is only $20 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150494&cm_re=hd_5850-_-14-150-494-_-Product $289 - instant $40 rebate = $249 and with free shipping

 

[herfalerf]

blasting i was actually responding to ramongtp quoting me, sorry for the confusion.

accuse me of trolling if you will, but i have a limited budget in which to buy a new video card and a psu, i can squeeze a 460, i cannot squeeze a 5850. that does not mean i do not like the card. pretty arrogant of you to say that i have no business considering any of the cards here. the 460 is in my price range, the 5850 is not. not everyone has an unlimited budget and there has to be a place where you draw the line, for me that line is $250 which means i can buy the 768mb 460 and a new psu to go with it to replace the piece of junk currently in my system.

i was not suggesting that anyone else should need to upgrade their psu or that it was required specifically for the 5850. try reading before posting next time.

 

[rtd]

The 460 is kind of special, it dominates anything in it's price range.Pitting the 5850 against 460 together isn't exactly fair since there is more than $70.00 difference between the two on average. The 470 was the response to the 5850 and either can be had for around 300.00 You have been able to find deals on both that bring them down to the 250 range.

 

[blastingcap]

Okay fair enough, but Lorien, the guy above this post, found an even cheaper 5850 without MIR: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1035991372&postcount=44 It's $249.99 delivered cost, no rebate needed, making the gap just $20 between the cheapest 1 GB GTX 460vs. 1 GB HD 5850. At those prices the HD 5850 is clearly the better value at higher resolutions and at LEAST as good of a value at lower resolutions.

P.S. I bought from MSI before and they have always honored their rebates, even though it takes a couple of months.

the 18% price premium figure was comparing the $229 price of the 1gb card to the price of the cheapest 5850 which was listed at 279, however i missed the MIR. i tend not to consider them when i am pricing out items before i buy because they are not always honored. assuming that you get your MIR then the 5850 is about an equal value performance to dollar.

and rumx, as far as the power consumption thing goes, i wasnt even talking about the 5850, i was talking about the 5830, read my original post. certain models of the 5830 use more power at load than certain models of the 460 as per the hardocp review. some use more so i was partially correct. pay more attention to what you are reading before you start calling bullshit all over the place. the unprovoked hostility is pretty immature in the first place, if you didnt agree with what i said it was simply a matter of correcting me and moving on.

this really has absolutely nothing to do with my point, which is that 460 is a better VALUE, even if the 5850 is faster overall. according to the benchmarks i have read on all of but few games the difference in performance does not match up with the difference in price. that is my point, period.

 

[horrorshow]

If you can find a 5850 for under $250, go for it.

Otherwise, stick to the 460GTX 768MB cards for now.

 

[blastingcap]

The 460 is kind of special, it dominates anything in it's price range.Pitting the 5850 against 460 together isn't exactly fair since there is more than $70.00 difference between the two on average. The 470 was the response to the 5850 and either can be had for around 300.00 You have been able to find deals on both that bring them down to the 250 range.

Dude are you even reading my posts or Loriens? The gap is $20 between the cheapest 1 GB 460 vs HD 5850. I don't care what review sites said about value if they didn't use the most up-to-date numbers. The most up-to-date numbers are $230 vs. $250 (for 1 GB GTX 460 vs. 1 GB HD 5850, respectively).

 

[horrorshow]

Dude are you even reading my posts or Loriens? The gap is $20 between the cheapest 1 GB 460 vs HD 5850. I don't care what review sites said about value if they didn't use the most up-to-date numbers. The most up-to-date numbers are $230 vs. $250 (for 1 GB GTX 460 vs. 1 GB HD 5850, respectively).

At that point, a $20 difference comes down to brand loyalty.

5850 will win the benches, but Nvidia still provides a superior driver suite. (PLUS Physix)

 

[rtd]

You shouldn't be comparing the 1gig version since the 30.00 price increase doesn't equate to even 20% performance.Don't forget you could get the gtx 470 for 240.00 not too long ago. So please be fair and do not compare sales or if you do then clearly the 470 wins /thread.

Dude are you even reading my posts or Loriens? The gap is $20 between the cheapest 1 GB 460 vs HD 5850. I don't care what review sites said about value if they didn't use the most up-to-date numbers. The most up-to-date numbers are $230 vs. $250 (for 1 GB GTX 460 vs. 1 GB HD 5850, respectively).

No I didn't read the thread just the first post. I offered unbiased information and that is that. Like I said if you want to compare sales you have to talk about the 470 then, which destroys the 5850.

 

[horrorshow]

The 470 is another dustbuster card. (ie.the nvidia 5000 series)

This is a question of whether the 460 gtx or 5850 is the BETTER OVERALL PERFORMER FOR THE MONEY.

 

[blastingcap]

At that point, a $20 difference comes down to brand loyalty.

5850 will win the benches, but Nvidia still provides a superior driver suite. (PLUS Physix)

I've had cards from 3DFX (Voodoo-era), Nvidia, and ATI, and honestly I don't think NVIDIA has much better drivers.

Other than that, I agree with you that features start to matter when the difference is $260 vs. $240, which is just an 8% price difference.

PhysX... I don't even have any games that use it, and there aren't that many that use it in a worthwhile way. It doesn't mean I don't want it, it just means I wouldn't pay more than, say, $5 to have it.

Folding@Home is NVIDIA territory, period.

But the killer feature for me personally is Eyefinity. For me I have no choice but ATI right now, because I can't use Surround: I can't support SLI on my mobo, and even if I could, my PSU couldn't handle it. Maybe when I upgrade my mobo and PSU in the future, I will consider NVIDIA again.

Lower power consumption of HD 5850 doesn't hurt.

 

[rtd]

The 470 is another dustbuster card. (ie.the nvidia 5000 series)

This is a question of whether the 460 gtx or 5850 is the better performer OVERALL FOR THE MONEY.

No it's a question of GTX 460= ATI what? Read the thread title. I already answered too. The 460 is in a league of it's own dominating everything in it's price bracket, so much in fact that you have to bump it up another bracket to compete with it.

 

[Lorien]

At that point, a $20 difference comes down to brand loyalty.

5850 will win the benches, but Nvidia still provides a superior driver suite. (PLUS Physix)

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to start beating the drivers dead horse argument.

 

[horrorshow]

No it's a question of GTX 460= ATI what? Read the thread title. I already answered too. The 460 is in a league of it's own dominating everything in it's price bracket, so much in fact that you have to bump it up another bracket to compete with it.

GTX 460 = ATI 5830

I see what you're saying. This thread is pointless.

 

[blastingcap]

GTX 470 doesn't "destroy" the HD 5850. Look at techpowerup, it's like 7% faster at stock speeds at 1920x1200 and dead even at 2560x1600, plus 5850s run much cooler and lower-power, with great overclockability. The GTX 470 can't say the same. http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_GTX_460_1_GB/31.html

Point taken about sales but the guy above was comparing lowest prices which is why I looked at newegg for myself. Not my fault that there are no sales for the GTX 460. Plus.. $240 for a GTX 470 probably involved BCB or something, and BCB ends in a few days.

Edited to add: 1 GB is more futureproof and better for resale value than 768MB. It IS unfair to compare 768 v 1GB. Look at 768 performance on techpowerup's charts, esp. at higher resolutions, and it's clear that 768 does not equal 1 GB.

You shouldn't be comparing the 1gig version since the 30.00 price increase doesn't equate to even 20% performance.Don't forget you could get the gtx 470 for 240.00 not too long ago. So please be fair and do not compare sales or if you do then clearly the 470 wins /thread.

No I didn't read the thread just the first post. I offered unbiased information and that is that. Like I said if you want to compare sales you have to talk about the 470 then, which destroys the 5850.

 

[rtd]

GTX 470 doesn't "destroy" the HD 5850. Look at techpowerup, it's like 7% faster at stock speeds at 1920x1200 and dead even at 2560x1600, plus 5850s run much cooler and lower-power, with great overclockability. The GTX 470 can't say the same. http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_GTX_460_1_GB/31.html

Point taken about sales but the guy above was comparing lowest prices which is why I looked at newegg for myself. Not my fault that there are no sales for the GTX 460. Plus.. $240 for a GTX 470 probably involved BCB or something, and BCB ends in a few days.

Edited to add: 1 GB is more futureproof and better for resale value than 768MB. It IS unfair to compare 768 v 1GB. Look at 768 performance on techpowerup's charts, esp. at higher resolutions, and it's clear that 768 does not equal 1 GB.

There is way more of a performance difference between the 5850 and the 460 1gb than the 460 768mb and 1gb version. I think it's perfectly fair to compare the 768 mb version. Especially since "future proof" is subjective and dependent on so many other factors. Also about the 470.... it overclocks just fine.

 

[blastingcap]

Okay looking at http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Axle/GeForce_GTX_460_768_MB/31.html and figuring that the cheapest 768 MB GTX 460 is $200, compared to $250 for the cheapest HD 5850, this is what I calculate:

At 1680x1050, 5850 wins by 14% and costs 25% more; 5830 loses by 7% but costs 10% less

At 1920x1200, 5850 wins by 24% and costs 25% more; 5830 loses by 6% but costs 10% less

At 2560x1600, 5850 wins by 37% and costs 25% more; 5830 loses by 1% but costs 10% less

250/200 = 25%. So for now, if you game at 1680x1050, the 768 version is a better deal than the 5850. It's a wash at 1920x1200. The 5850 is the better buy at 2560x1600. In the future, unless I were absolutely sure that I would never go above 1680x1050, I'd rather have a 1 GB card over a 768MB card. I'd rather not worry about not having enough VRAM to avoid big slowdowns in fps.

These conclusions are subject to change depending on price changes and how much VRAM games start eating up in the near future. And certain things may be dealbreakers, like the length of the cards, or power requirements, or some people's need for PhysX, or whatever. I also stand by my futureproofing concerns.. would you buy a 320MB card today, for instance? Probably not. Well, in a couple of years, 768MB is going to look like what a 320MB card looks like today. And that hurts resale value.

Edited to add: surprisingly, if you look at 5830 numbers it's not far behind the GTX 460 768. At 1680x1050, it's 93% as fast as a 768MB GTX 460 but costs 90% as much. In other words, a 5830 has a higher bang for buck ratio than a GTX 460. (Cheapest HD 5830 is $180 on Newegg right now: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161327&cm_re=5830-_-14-161-327-_-Product no rebate needed) The ratios get better and better for the HD 5830 at higher resolutions; at 2560x1600 the 5830 is just as fast as a 768MB GTX 460, even though it costs $20 less. And it has the resale value of a 1GB card, too.

There is way more of a performance difference between the 5850 and the 460 1gb than the 460 768mb and 1gb version. I think it's perfectly fair to compare the 768 mb version. Especially since "future proof" is subjective and dependent on so many other factors. Also about the 470.... it overclocks just fine.

 

[ClearM4]

Okay looking at http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Axle/GeForce_GTX_460_768_MB/31.html and figuring that the cheapest 768 MB GTX 460 is $200, compared to $250 for the cheapest HD 5850, this is what I calculate:

At 1680x1050, 5850 wins by 14% and costs 25% more; 5830 loses by 7% but costs 10% less

At 1920x1200, 5850 wins by 24% and costs 25% more; 5830 loses by 6% but costs 10% less

At 2560x1600, 5850 wins by 37% and costs 25% more; 5830 loses by 1% but costs 10% less

250/200 = 25%. So for now, if you game at 1680x1050, the 768 version is a better deal than the 5850. It's a wash at 1920x1200. The 5850 is the better buy at 2560x1600. In the future, unless I were absolutely sure that I would never go above 1680x1050, I'd rather have a 1 GB card over a 768MB card. I'd rather not worry about not having enough VRAM to avoid big slowdowns in fps.

These conclusions are subject to change depending on price changes and how much VRAM games start eating up in the near future. And certain things may be dealbreakers, like the length of the cards, or power requirements, or some people's need for PhysX, or whatever. I also stand by my futureproofing concerns.. would you buy a 320MB card today, for instance? Probably not. Well, in a couple of years, 768MB is going to look like what a 320MB card looks like today. And that hurts resale value.

Edited to add: surprisingly, if you look at 5830 numbers it's not far behind the GTX 460 768. At 1680x1050, it's 93% as fast as a 768MB GTX 460 but costs 90% as much. In other words, a 5830 has a higher bang for buck ratio than a GTX 460. (Cheapest HD 5830 is $180 on Newegg right now: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161327&cm_re=5830-_-14-161-327-_-Product no rebate needed) The ratios get better and better for the HD 5830 at higher resolutions; at 2560x1600 the 5830 is just as fast as a 768MB GTX 460, even though it costs $20 less. And it has the resale value of a 1GB card, too.

This

 

[martinje]

I think if Ati could get the crossfire performance on par with Nvidia's SLI, I would recommend 5850 all the way, but in SLI form, the 460 shines. No matter what, its good that Nvidia brought a good card to the table which hopefully will bring down prices of the 5850/5870.

 

[MrGuvernment]

a quick googling found passmarks video card benchmark scoreboard listing the 5850 at 2409 points and the 460 at 2254 points. according the this particular benchmark that is less than a 7% performance increase for an 18% premium. i realize that the scores may be different from other benchmarks and in-game testing, but im just doing a rough comparison.

Didn't realize you could play a benchmark.... remember when ATI's 2900 series kicked the crap out of NVIDIA in 3dmark years back, i think versus the 7 series?, but playing actual games, NVIDIA wiped the floor with ATI's cards....benchmarks don't mean jack between different companies cards.

 

[Mr. K6]

Okay looking at http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Axle/GeForce_GTX_460_768_MB/31.html and figuring that the cheapest 768 MB GTX 460 is $200, compared to $250 for the cheapest HD 5850, this is what I calculate:

At 1680x1050, 5850 wins by 14% and costs 25% more; 5830 loses by 7% but costs 10% less

At 1920x1200, 5850 wins by 24% and costs 25% more; 5830 loses by 6% but costs 10% less

At 2560x1600, 5850 wins by 37% and costs 25% more; 5830 loses by 1% but costs 10% less

250/200 = 25%. So for now, if you game at 1680x1050, the 768 version is a better deal than the 5850. It's a wash at 1920x1200. The 5850 is the better buy at 2560x1600. In the future, unless I were absolutely sure that I would never go above 1680x1050, I'd rather have a 1 GB card over a 768MB card. I'd rather not worry about not having enough VRAM to avoid big slowdowns in fps.

These conclusions are subject to change depending on price changes and how much VRAM games start eating up in the near future. And certain things may be dealbreakers, like the length of the cards, or power requirements, or some people's need for PhysX, or whatever. I also stand by my futureproofing concerns.. would you buy a 320MB card today, for instance? Probably not. Well, in a couple of years, 768MB is going to look like what a 320MB card looks like today. And that hurts resale value.

Edited to add: surprisingly, if you look at 5830 numbers it's not far behind the GTX 460 768. At 1680x1050, it's 93% as fast as a 768MB GTX 460 but costs 90% as much. In other words, a 5830 has a higher bang for buck ratio than a GTX 460. (Cheapest HD 5830 is $180 on Newegg right now: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161327&cm_re=5830-_-14-161-327-_-Product no rebate needed) The ratios get better and better for the HD 5830 at higher resolutions; at 2560x1600 the 5830 is just as fast as a 768MB GTX 460, even though it costs $20 less. And it has the resale value of a 1GB card, too.

Hats off to you, that's an excellent post. Really, if you want best bang-for-your-buck, you get the 5830, if you want the fastest card, you get the 5850, and if you play at lower resolutions and want a compromise, the GTX 460 would be the way to go.

 

[cageymaru]

Dude are you even reading my posts or Loriens? The gap is $20 between the cheapest 1 GB 460 vs HD 5850. I don't care what review sites said about value if they didn't use the most up-to-date numbers. The most up-to-date numbers are $230 vs. $250 (for 1 GB GTX 460 vs. 1 GB HD 5850, respectively).

Well I'm not 100% sure as I don't own the card myself, but from reading hardforum and googling, the $250 XFX 5850 card that you are comparing to the 1gb 460's is the "cheap parts" version of the 5850. Meaning that it is a piss poor overclocker. Once again, I'm just going by what others have said. This invalidates your argument about overclocking it as it's dog poo when it comes to overclocking.

I have the reference XFX card (ZNFC) that was sold here on Hardforum when nobody could find a 5850 in the stores. The voltage is locked, but the parts are of high quality and I can just arbitrarily set it at 900 / 1200 on stock voltage. That funny looking thing you'll are comparing the 460's to can't do that from what I gather.

If you want to compare 5850's and 460's then you need to get a 5850 that is reference and overclockable. Don't pick junk and compare Apples and Oranges. I don't know which of these if the 'overclockable' one, so I'll let you'll debate that. But please don't pick junk and say it's gold. That's just not right; and misinforms others just so you can make your point.

And I think that 5850's are a great value, as are 460's. Just stick with the facts and not fairy tales guys.




Hardocp new comparison.

 

[blastingcap]

II think it's pretty fair to say that overall, the 1 GB GTX 460 is like a hypothetical 5840 (in-between a 5830 and 5850, though it slows down more at higher resolutions than either of the 58xx cards, losing by 25% to the 5850 at 2560x1600 resolution, for example), and the 768MB GTX 460 is like a hypothetical 5835 (slightly faster than a 5830 until you hit 2560x1600, where they tie).

That was the OP's question, which I think was fair.

But the thread got hijacked into a bang for the buck discussion which I will bow out of after I say the following:

My point in comparing actual price/performance is that there is no one-size-fits-all answer. The 5830/5850 and GTX 460 are roughly equal when it comes to bang-per-buck, with the 5830 @ $180 being the leader at all resolutions, followed closely by both the GTX 460 (lower resolutions) and 5850 (higher resolutions). When price/performance gets that close, you probably want to start looking at other factors of interest, like power consumption, noise levels, temperatures, Eyefinity vs. PhysX, physical size of the card, whether you can SLI for Surround, how a card performances in the programs you run the most, warranty and service level of the card company, etc.

I got sidetracked into a bang-for-buck discussion thanks to the people alleging how the GTX 460 was so much more cost efficient than the 58xx series, when at current prices it is not. Prices change, and it's inevitable that we'll see lower prices for all of the cards mentioned above, which could change the bang-for-buck calculations. But for now, I think I have shown how the GTX 460, at TODAY's prices, is not necessarily the bang-for-buck leader at the $1800-250 price range. Anandtech was right about GTX 460 dominating its price point when it came out, but then is not now. At today's prices, 58xxs can actually be more cost-efficient, especially at 1920x1200 and higher.

I understand your point for those who like to overvolt/overclock (I have a 5850 overvoltable reference card), but there is this: 1) you can still overclock on the egg-cooler 5850, you just can't overvolt it; 2) the next-cheapest 5850 is the MSI voltage-moddable Twin Frozr cooler one and it's $260 after rebate--very close to $250 and you get twin coolers and a card built to overvolt and overclock, to boot; 3) some people don't like to overclock, negating any overclocking advantage the GTX 460 has over the egg-cooler $250 XFX card.

Well I'm not 100% sure as I don't own the card myself, but from reading hardforum and googling, the $250 XFX 5850 card that you are comparing to the 1gb 460's is the "cheap parts" version of the 5850. Meaning that it is a piss poor overclocker. Once again, I'm just going by what others have said. This invalidates your argument about overclocking it as it's dog poo when it comes to overclocking.

I have the reference XFX card (ZNFC) that was sold here on Hardforum when nobody could find a 5850 in the stores. The voltage is locked, but the parts are of high quality and I can just arbitrarily set it at 900 / 1200 on stock voltage. That funny looking thing you'll are comparing the 460's to can't do that from what I gather.

If you want to compare 5850's and 460's then you need to get a 5850 that is reference and overclockable. Don't pick junk and compare Apples and Oranges. I don't know which of these if the 'overclockable' one, so I'll let you'll debate that. But please don't pick junk and say it's gold. That's just not right; and misinforms others just so you can make your point.

And I think that 5850's are a great value, as are 460's. Just stick with the facts and not fairy tales guys.




Hardocp new comparison.

 

[cageymaru]

Sounds fair Blastingcap. In the end we finally got close competition again, and that's good for us the consumer. Hats off to both ATI and Nvidia for making great products that present great value and are close in performance to each other. And that's the best conclusion that I can draw from this.

 

[pasta4u]

I disagree. You should not compare high-end cooling solutions (the $345 Vapor-X is the highest price on Newegg I see for 5850) with the lower-end cooling solutions on the GTX 460's. A big chunk of that $345 is going towards proprietary cooling tech. Also you should compare 1GB vs. 1GB cards to keep things even, and the cheapest 1GB GTX 460 is listed at $229, not $199.

Cheapest 1 GB GTX 460 = $229.99 w/ free shipping (multiple companies listed at this price)
Cheapest 1 GB HD 5850 = $259.99 after rebate w/ free shipping http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127500&cm_re=hd_5850-_-14-127-500-_-Product

To OP, here's your unbiased answer:

768 MB GTX 460 = ATI HD 5835 (in many cases ~12% slower than HD 5850 but that changes as you go up in resolution, to the point where it's more like a HD 5830)

1 GB GTX 460 = ATI HD 5840 (roughly ~12% slower than HD 5850, stock vs. stock speeds)

overclocked 1 GB GTX 460 = stock HD 5850

overclocked 1 GB GTX 460 < overclocked HD 5850 (by probably roughly the same percentage, ~12%)

Edited to add: at higher resolutions the gap grows, e.g., 1 GB GTX 460 is 15% slower than HD 5850, and the gap is 23% at 2560x1600.

Its really interesting to me that you would choose the newest gtx 460 drivers but use march drivers in july for the hd5850.

Its a very disturbng trend actually. Looking at anand the newest review is using 10.2a drivers while the review before it was using 10.3a drivers



http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-460-gf104-fermi,2684-5.html

Toms was actually able to use 10.6 drivers !


And if you look

Modern warfare 2 the gtx 460 beats the 5850 in all but the highest benchmark.
Crysis 5830 beats the gtx 460 1gig in all resolutions. The 5850 is faster than the gtx 470 in all resolutions
Aliens vs predator the 5830 trades blows with the gtx 465 in all resolutions , the 5850 wins in all but 2560x1600 against the gtx 470.
dirt 2 the gtx 460 wins up till 2560x1600. In which case the 5850 passes it up. The 768MB gtx 460 delievers worse performance at this reolustion than the hd 5770 because of its framebuffers. In fact it can only post roughly half the fsaa score as the hd 5770

If you keep going through you'll see the 5850 trades blows with the gtx 470 most of the time and beats it. The gtx 460 on the other hand is all over the map. Sometimes its as fast as a 5850 or faster , sometimes its slower than the hd 5770.


These cards are very odd in away. The gtx 460 is able to dominate many times at very low resolutions but once demands go up the ati cards start to climb back up. In fact if you want 2560x1600 gaming the 5830 is often the better choice over the gtx 460 and sometimes even the gtx 465.

Ati could simply put out a 5790 at higher clock speeds and most likely make the 768mb gtx 460 a moot point and the 5790 would cost ati much less to make.

 

[Lorien]

Ati could simply put out a 5790 at higher clock speeds and most likely make the 768mb gtx 460 a moot point and the 5790 would cost ati much less to make.

^^^Southern Islands in about 3 months time. If there is a right time to hold from purchasing anything, this is it. When S.I. is released AMD will have to lower prices of the current HD5xxx line up to clear inventory and make way for the upcoming HD6xxx line up. This will hopefully force prices of Nvidia solution to drop as well.
What I am afraid of is AMD taking a page out of Nvidia's recent decision cripple supply of the GTX2xx series in order to keep prices artificially high and milk consumers out of a little more cash. Hopefully it won't come to that since their products have sold really well and are not suffering from any massive delays like Nvidia did.

 

[pasta4u]

^^^Southern Islands in about 3 months time. If there is a right time to hold from purchasing anything, this is it. When S.I. is released AMD will have to lower prices of the current HD5xxx line up to clear inventory and make way for the upcoming HD6xxx line up. This will hopefully force prices of Nvidia solution to drop as well.
What I am afraid of is AMD taking a page out of Nvidia's recent decision cripple supply of the GTX2xx series in order to keep prices artificially high and milk consumers out of a little more cash. Hopefully it won't come to that since their products have sold really well and are not suffering from any massive delays like Nvidia did.

I keep hearing diffrent things. I hear SI for qtr 4 of this year and also for early next year.

If ati were smart they would have refreshed the line up back when the gtx 480 launched. A radeon 5890 at 1ghz would have let them put out a $450 part , drop the 5870 to $350 , the 5850 to $250 and the 5830 to $180 . They would have been able to grow thier asp

 

[blastingcap]

Sounds fair Blastingcap. In the end we finally got close competition again, and that's good for us the consumer. Hats off to both ATI and Nvidia for making great products that present great value and are close in performance to each other. And that's the best conclusion that I can draw from this.

Agreed

 

[fattypants]

The 460 was just recently released, so I'm sure its not hurting their sales at this point

Or possibly worse, it's cannibalizing the sales of their own cards just as much if not more than it's hurting ATI. Nvidia may have given up a lot of money just to shoot themselves in the foot.

With the release of the 460, they've essentially killed off all their cards between the G92 and 470/480

 

[vengence]

Or possibly worse, it's cannibalizing the sales of their own cards just as much if not more than it's hurting ATI. Nvidia may have given up a lot of money just to shoot themselves in the foot.

With the release of the 460, they've essentially killed off all their cards between the G92 and 470/480

What exactly was a huge seller between the 470 and the GTS 250? The not the 260/275/280 as they are all EOL.

 

[Aaron11]

Well all I can say is that if I had $200 to spend on a gpu, I'd get the GTX460. I like the 5770 but the price doesn't seem cheap enough. I think it's worth it just to pay the extra $50 or so to get a GTX460. If we ever see the 5770 drop down close to $100, that changes everything. As for the 5850, it performs better than the GTX460 at stock speeds. And as a final note, as an overall package, I think the GTX460 is Nvidia's best card available now especially since I consider Nvidia's higher end to be just decent when you factor in power and heat.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

What exactly was a huge seller between the 470 and the GTS 250? The not the 260/275/280 as they are all EOL.

There is little point in buying a 465 or 470 with the 460 at this price. I would even opt for a pair of 460 before getting a 480.

 

[vengence]

There is little point in buying a 465 or 470 with the 460 at this price. I would even opt for a pair of 460 before getting a 480.

For 465 I agree with you, I'm not so sure about the 470 or the 480.

The 480 is a card that is meant towards 2 markets, high end SLI and single GPU enthusiasts. The a pair of 460s doesn't fall into either of those categories.

 

[Aaron11]

For 465 I agree with you, I'm not so sure about the 470 or the 480.

The 480 is a card that is meant towards 2 markets, high end SLI and single GPU enthusiasts. The a pair of 460s doesn't fall into either of those categories.

Either way I'd personally rather have two 460s slied than a single 480. To me the 480 just produces too much heat. But I guess I could understand why people would get one if they really wanted a single GPU. But like I said before, the GTX 460 is what saved Nvidia this generation. If I want anything more than a GTX460, I 'd go with ATI imho. But again, that's just my opinion.