Good time to upgrade?

[eviltypeguy]

TL: DR; Have PNY GTX 280 should I get GTX 460/470 or Radeon 6870? Budget is $300 max.


Long version:
I'm new here (although I've read HardOCP for years, I've never bothered to register for a forum account), and I can't find a good post that fits my particular case, so I apologise in advance if this post is pointless.

With that out of the way...

I currently have a custom built system with this hardware (important components only):

* Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 (Stock @3.00GHz)
* 8 GB Memory (OCZ I think)
* WD Raptor 10K Sata Drive
* PNY XLR8 GeForce GTX 280
* Windows 7 64-Bit
* Acer GD235HZ
* Corsair 850W Power Supply

Nothing's overclocked (at least by me anyway), and before you ask I'm not interested in overclocking. I need reliability over speed for my components.

I do some gaming, but it's pretty much limited to World of Warcraft (once in a while), Civilization V, lots of older games (top hits 2005 back to 1980s) and software development (including 3D programming work too).

Lately, I've noticed that games like Civilization V are running pretty poor, and I suspect it's time I upgrade my video card. I'm sure upgrading the processor would help, but that's not in my budget, and I suspect I'll get a better "bang for my buck" out of upgrading the video card.

So with that in mind: I've mostly owned nVidia cards since the original Riva TNT. (Although I admit to owning a few Voodoo cards as well before that.) The last ATi card I owned was a Radeon 9800 Pro, which I had an absolutely horrid experience with (especially with older games; I have a collection of 100+).

So, I'm looking for advice as to whether I should wait for the launch of the nVidia GTX 580 and Radeon 69xx (with the assumption that will cause further significant price drops on lower models), or pounce on one of the tasty looking Radeon 6870s or a GTX 460/470.

My budget demands I don't spend over $300 at the most, and ideally, less than that.

I do use Solaris & GNU/Linux on the system for development work from time to time, which is another reason I've stuck with nVidia. But I could be convinced to make this my Windows-only gaming system if the AMD card is compelling enough.

Should I wait or upgrade now? Are my assumptions sound?

If you think I should get an ATi (ahem, AMD) card, convince me it won't suck (especially w/ a lot of older games that love to stick that nVidia startup logo in your face). My experience in the past has been that nVidia drivers generally work great with old and new games, and ATi's only worked great with newer ones.

If you think I should get an nVidia card, convince me the higher noise and significantly higher power usage is worth it. (My interpretation of HardOCP's recent reviews.)

I really haven't made a decision yet, so please don't infer anything from the text above.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Flyinfinni]

I would probably wait, not necessarily because prices will drop further (which they might or might not) but to see what kind of price and performance the 69xx series brings. If AMD pulls the 6950 at the $299 price point, you might be in for a treat. Otherwise, at least you know whats available, and may be able to pull a 5870 for within your $300 limit.

 

[R-Type]

Evil,

What resolution monitor are you running? I crush Civilization 5 on my system with a GTX 280 (I'm oc'd but thats only ~15%) at 1900x1200. More than likely you are seeing the impact of multithreading taking off in a big way in the latest generation of game engines. People with even heavily overclocked E8xxx chips (~4.5ghz) still see hitching on some of the newer engines. I would pick up a used Q9550 for ~$150 and hold off on the new graphics card, particularly as you don't play any really graphically intensive games. I'm still running between high and maxed in everything I play and plan on riding my card out until 28nm.

 

[KaptainKhaos]

is water wet ?

 

[cannondale06]

you have a fairly balanced pc right now and upgrading to something like a gtx580 would really need a high end quad for the best experience in those cpu intensive games like Civ 5. plus a gtx580 will be in the $500 range. honestly there is no decent upgrade solution for under 300 bucks at this time. I mean you could get a 6870 or gtx470 but you are only looking at getting around 35-40% more performance and even less in very cpu intensive games. I guess if you could sale your other card for a good price then getting a gtx470 or 6870 would be worth it.

 

[Forceman]

Something in the 6870/470 range is an upgrade from the GTX 280 (anything less is kind of a side-grade). I'd wait and see what happens with the 6970, rumored to launch in November. If nothing else, it should push down prices on the GTX 480 and 5870.

 

[Lord_Exodia]

I wish you would consider overclocking or upgrading your CPU, That cpu at that speed would bottleneck you depending on the resolution your playing at. I think even WOW after this new patch and after the expansion pack will be too demanding for your rig as in your cpu will hold you back at that speed. Overclocking may help but may not be the solution. I'm afraid if your not considering overclocking your CPU or upgrading it too then it's pointless going for GTX 470/6870/6950/GTX580 etc..anything else would be kind of a side grade as mentioned before so me being in your shoes, I'd say it's time for a cpu upgrade then a GPU upgrade in December. This way you wont bottleneck anything you buy and moot the point of the upgrade in the first place.

 

[R-Type]

Another thing I didn't mention, you should be able to sell your current cpu for a reasonable price in the FS/FT section (probably somewhere around $70 I would think). This would make the cost of upgrading to a quad like the q9550 under $100. This will give you a far better return on investment than a new video card and allow you to keep the motherboard and ram you have.

Lord_Exodia, I shot you a PM. What program did you use to customize your GTX280 bios? Years ago I played with nhibitor but I'm hoping they've progressed a bit from there...

 

[eviltypeguy]

Evil,

What resolution monitor are you running?

1920x1080; this is a 16:9 aspect monitor.

I crush Civilization 5 on my system with a GTX 280 (I'm oc'd but thats only ~15%) at 1900x1200. More than likely you are seeing the impact of multithreading taking off in a big way in the latest generation of game engines. People with even heavily overclocked E8xxx chips (~4.5ghz) still see hitching on some of the newer engines. I would pick up a used Q9550 for ~$150 and hold off on the new graphics card, particularly as you don't play any really graphically intensive games. I'm still running between high and maxed in everything I play and plan on riding my card out until 28nm.

Really? That's quite surprising. I didn't think (despite the articles I've read) that the newer processor would make most of the difference here. Especially since the one I have is already running at 3.0 GHz. I mean, I knew the newer Intel processors were more efficient, but I didn't think it was that big of a difference.

Unfortunately, my CPU is old enough that it's been hard to find benchmarks of newer games with it to get a better idea.

The thing that concerns me about replacing the CPU is that it would mean replacing the motherboard and the memory very likely.

I'm not convinced that a Q9550 would really be an upgrade for me given that it's four cores at 2.83GHz:

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/16570/3

Most games I play don't even scale beyond one processor, let alone two.

 

[eviltypeguy]

I wish you would consider overclocking or upgrading your CPU, That cpu at that speed would bottleneck you depending on the resolution your playing at. I think even WOW after this new patch and after the expansion pack will be too demanding for your rig as in your cpu will hold you back at that speed.

I'm not sure I follow. My system is well above both the minimum and recommend requirements Blizzard posted.

I'm quite capable of overclocking, but without ECC memory, I've found I get random bit corruption in memory too often.

I do OS-level development work, so it tends to be a bit more sensitive to overclocking.

Overclocking may help but may not be the solution. I'm afraid if your not considering overclocking your CPU or upgrading it too then it's pointless going for GTX 470/6870/6950/GTX580 etc..anything else would be kind of a side grade as mentioned before so me being in your shoes, I'd say it's time for a cpu upgrade then a GPU upgrade in December. This way you wont bottleneck anything you buy and moot the point of the upgrade in the first place.

Unfortunately, I can really afford to choose one or the other for several months. Not unless my family is feeling generous

 

[eviltypeguy]

Something in the 6870/470 range is an upgrade from the GTX 280 (anything less is kind of a side-grade). I'd wait and see what happens with the 6970, rumored to launch in November. If nothing else, it should push down prices on the GTX 480 and 5870.

That was sort of my thought, and certainly, not spending money is an option I can easily take.

It's just, Civ V makes me sad with the way it performs right now

 

[eviltypeguy]

So as an example of why I'm convinced I'd benefit more from the graphics card:

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6279244/index.html?tag=topslot;thumb;5

As you can see from the graph there, my processor would only make a few FPS difference going from an E8400 to something like a Q9650 or Q9550.

Or you could look here, where it shows going from an E8500 (close to my E8400) to a Core i5/i7 isn't much of a boost compared to graphics:

http://www.techspot.com/review/320-civilization-v-performance/page12.html

Whereas, if you look at the techspot review here:

http://www.techspot.com/review/320-civilization-v-performance/page6.html

You'll see that going from a GTX 285 (a little faster than my card I believe) to a GTX 460/470 is almost 3x the performance.

 

[Forceman]

That was sort of my thought, and certainly, not spending money is an option I can easily take.

It's just, Civ V makes me sad with the way it performs right now

Civ 5 makes everyone sad with the way it performs right now. The new patch might have helped things though, as worker pathing was rumored to be a big reason for the slowdowns late in the game.

 

[eviltypeguy]

Civ 5 makes everyone sad with the way it performs right now. The new patch might have helped things though, as worker pathing was rumored to be a big reason for the slowdowns late in the game.

Yes, and the patch has helped, but as I pointed out in the other graphs, faster video cards are giving triple the framerate I'm currently getting.

So really, I'm just looking for someone to convince me that Radeon 6870 or GTX 460/470 are a good option.

 

[scaarbelly]

Yes you are correct that an upgrade to a Q9550 would not do much. Your current system is still pretty good. If I were you I would wait and save some cash and build a new PC over the next 6 months to year.

 

[R-Type]

Yes you are correct that an upgrade to a Q9550 would not do much. Your current system is still pretty good. If I were you I would wait and save some cash and build a new PC over the next 6 months to year.

I disagree thoroughly, and I think there are many here who would as well. He has an E8500 at 3ghz, if you put a Q9550 in you are nearly doubling the execution resources available to work with. When modern games spawn enough threads to saturate quads, it brings dual cores to their knees.

Evil, have a look around the forum. You will find a large number of people making the same exodus from dual core processors to quad systems. Its an easy way to give you system legs for another year or two. As for the GTX280, they are typically about the same speed as a GTX 460 1GB (obviously without DX11 support). I really don't think this is your issue.

 

[eviltypeguy]

I disagree thoroughly, and I think there are many here who would as well. He has an E8500 at 3ghz, if you put a Q9550 in you are nearly doubling the execution resources available to work with. When modern games spawn enough threads to saturate quads, it brings dual cores to their knees.

Did you look at the CPU graph I showed above? For Civ 5 at least, it didn't seem to make much difference.

Evil, have a look around the forum. You will find a large number of people making the same exodus from dual core processors to quad systems. Its an easy way to give you system legs for another year or two. As for the GTX280, they are typically about the same speed as a GTX 460 1GB (obviously without DX11 support). I really don't think this is your issue.

If you look at the graph I linked above, the GTX 460 is showing almost three times the framerate of a GTX 285. How can you say they're about the same then?

If you look at one of HardOCP's own articles on CPU scaling, you'll see the E8500 (a dual core!) is neck-and-neck with a quad core at higher resolutions where games become GPU limited:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2008/11/05/intel_core_i7_gaming/2

 

[Stupac]

When modern games spawn enough threads to saturate quads, it brings dual cores to their knees.

hopefully in the future this will happen, still only have 1 game for me that maxes my 2 cores which is bfbc2 and it still runs fine.

 

[Forceman]

Did you try running in DX9 mode? It sounds like you've already made up your mind that you want a new video card, you are just looking for someone to convince you it is the right decision. So, here you go - this is a fantastic time to upgrade, the new Radeons are pushing prices to crazy levels, and the GTX 460 1GB/GTX 470 and 6850/6870 are fantastic cards at their price points. You wouldn't go wrong with any of those cards (although I'd go for the 460 or 6870 personally), but I still don't think they are a huge upgrade over the GTX 280 (unless the GTX 280 is significantly slower than the GTX 285 I upgraded from - which is possible, I can't remember that far back any more).

 

[bAMtan2]

your computer is fine. basically no games care about quad core. its a myth like ____-channel memory helping performance.

civ v is a pig. a computer worth twice yours could still slow down under common circumstances.

a gtx 460 is a serious upgrade from a gtx 280, despite what is being inferred here.

upgrade if you want. doesnt sound like you need to though.

 

[cannondale06]

your computer is fine. basically no games care about quad core. its a myth like ____-channel memory helping performance.

civ v is a pig. a computer worth twice yours could still slow down under common circumstances.

a gtx 460 is a serious upgrade from a gtx 280, despite what is being inferred here.

upgrade if you want. doesnt sound like you need to though.

well just to show you that plenty of games care about a quad core, here are just a few.

Dirt 2
RE 5
Dragon Age
GTA 4
Ghostbusters
Civ 5
Bad Company 2
Red Faction Guerrilla
Prototype
Lost Planet 1 and 2
Supreme Commander
Far Cry 2
Anno 1404
ARMA 2
World in Conflict
Medal of Honor: Airborne

now most of those will run fine on a fast dual core but some actually need a quad and preferably an i5/i7 to get the best experience on higher settings. and that's not a myth.

 

[Battl3fr0nt]

I will say, When I went from my Dual Core to my Quad Core, I did notice a difference. Biggest difference I noticed was much less fps drops and depending on the game a much better avg fps. I am also looking into a video card upgrade as I am running a 4870 1GB right now and have had it for a while. Im pretty sure I will go with the new 6xxx. and yes I do play wow 1920x1080 and a second 1920x1080 for doing stuff as I play... With the new patch that was released in wow 4.0.1 I notice that my fps does drop down to about 40fps sometimes and that is with shadows on the good setting. my cpu only runs at about 40%-60% in game and like I said with the quad core loading and everything is just faster.. I would upgrade the CPU as well as I know it helped a lot for me and with my multi tasking.. I would also like to know what a good gpu would be to upgrade to, I play BF:BC2 COD, well all the good fps games.. Starcraft 2, and a few other rts.. I am going to stick with the 4870 1GB for a little longer tho since it still is keeping up as long as I dont have shadows on ultra. that seems to be the biggest thing that bogs down the video card.. I know its off topic but wow, WoW looks so much better with this new patch! lol...

 

[R-Type]

Did you look at the CPU graph I showed above? For Civ 5 at least, it didn't seem to make much difference.



If you look at the graph I linked above, the GTX 460 is showing almost three times the framerate of a GTX 285. How can you say they're about the same then?

If you look at one of HardOCP's own articles on CPU scaling, you'll see the E8500 (a dual core!) is neck-and-neck with a quad core at higher resolutions where games become GPU limited:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2008/11/05/intel_core_i7_gaming/2

If they got 3x performance on a 460 vs a 280 then there must be a driver issue or some sort of fringe case. Look at the Anand benchmark comparison's.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/166?vs=180
Performance wise, a GTX 460 is like a dx11 capable GTX285 that happens to use half as much power.

If you want to believe that a dual core is as good as a quad despite several people telling you otherwise then I'm not going to bother continuing to point out the facts. Know that you are bottlenecking your current card and will severely limit the performance of any more powerful card. Look at the comparisons below, the games here are old but even Far Cry 2 shows scaling with a quad. As mentioned above, games with true multithreaded engines like GTA IV are pretty much unplayable on duals. Your graphics card will give the same FPS in gpu bound scenarios, but you minimum frame rate will hitch anytime you hit the execution limit of that E8500.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/55?vs=50

 

[dikkysun]

I would like to wait ,at least a month,maybe it cost 800 today,and 50% off next month

 

[eviltypeguy]

If they got 3x performance on a 460 vs a 280 then there must be a driver issue or some sort of fringe case. Look at the Anand benchmark comparison's.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/166?vs=180
Performance wise, a GTX 460 is like a dx11 capable GTX285 that happens to use half as much power.

Now that's what I was looking for. Okay, so only real benefit would be DX11 then.

If you want to believe that a dual core is as good as a quad despite several people telling you otherwise then I'm not going to bother continuing to point out the facts. Know that you are bottlenecking your current card and will severely limit the performance of any more powerful card. Look at the comparisons below, the games here are old but even Far Cry 2 shows scaling with a quad. As mentioned above, games with true multithreaded engines like GTA IV are pretty much unplayable on duals. Your graphics card will give the same FPS in gpu bound scenarios, but you minimum frame rate will hitch anytime you hit the execution limit of that E8500.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/55?vs=50

That's actually what I was looking for and a far more accurate comparison chart for my purposes.

I'll have to take some time to think about this, as a CPU upgrade would actually be more expensive than a GPU upgrade right now. Thanks!

 

[eviltypeguy]

So thanks for all the feedback, it looks like I should just wait.

$500 to upgrade to an equivalent speed Core i5 Processor (which based on AnandTech's comparison charts) is often only 10-15% faster is not motivating. (Since I'd need a new motherboard, memory, and processor.)

And like others pointed out, the GTX 280 is often close in speed to a GTX 470, although in some games it's much faster, but that's still around $200 at least.

It seems like I should wait for Intel's sandy bridge, and nVidia's GTX 5xx series or AMD's 69xx series to get the most out of upgrading. Thanks again to all.

Time to save those pennies...

 

[Tactical_Strike]

If you wanted to upgrade your gpu, the best options would be for you to either sell your 280 on HF and go SLI 460 or just go SLI 280. CPU is definitely a bottleneck, but you say that you want the reliability of stock speed CPU, but in reality you notice a degradation only 5-7 years of higher temps on an overclocked CPU, if you want, just make sure you dont go thermally past 65, and its more of an insignificant OC on the cpu temps, but you will most likely feel it in game.

 

[Forceman]

So thanks for all the feedback, it looks like I should just wait.

$500 to upgrade to an equivalent speed Core i5 Processor (which based on AnandTech's comparison charts) is often only 10-15% faster is not motivating. (Since I'd need a new motherboard, memory, and processor.)

And like others pointed out, the GTX 280 is often close in speed to a GTX 470, although in some games it's much faster, but that's still around $200 at least.

It seems like I should wait for Intel's sandy bridge, and nVidia's GTX 5xx series or AMD's 69xx series to get the most out of upgrading. Thanks again to all.

Time to save those pennies...

You can always buy a used Q9550 and drop it in your existing motherboard. Most of them can be overclocked above 3.6 with no trouble, and lots get to 4.0 pretty easily.