Good source for peltiers, any experience?

[hrdwrjnkie]

I'm looking for a good source for moderately priced peltiers, prefereably smaller ones (around 30 or 40 watts) to build a water chiller.

My plan is to pump the water through the CPU block, then into another block with a pelt and a HSF on it. In theory, this will cool the water as it passes through the block, and can all be contained in a small(ish) enclosure.

Anyone who has any experience with this, feel free to comment...

 

[zer0signal667]

Check on ebay
Two suppliers that I know of are Melcor and Tellurex, I doubt you can buy directly from them but you can search for the names.
I found a little list of surplus stores that sell them, don't know how up-to-date it is though...


All Electronics, Van Nuys CA
888-826-5432, FAX 818-781-2653 (3/04)
Web site shows two 127-couple devices and a 12V 6A module
with heatsink removed from portable refrigerators.
No minimum order. Takes charge cards.
allcorp@allcorp.com
http://www.allelectronics.com

Alltronics, Morgan Hill CA
408-778-3868. FAX 408-779-2608 (3/04)
Web site shows several thermoelectric modules.
$15 minimum order. Takes charge cards.
ejohnson@alltronics.com
http://www.alltronics.com

Gateway Electronics, St Louis MO
800-669-5810, 314-427-6116, FAX 314-427-3147 (3/04)
Web site shows 127 couple modules, documentation included,
small module $15 (approx 1.17"x1.17"x.12")
large module $25 (approx 1.56"x1.56"x.15")
$10 minimum order. Takes charge cards.
gateway@mvp.net
http://www.gatewayelex.com

Herback & Rademan, Mt Laurel NJ
800-848-8001, 856-802-0422, FAX 856-802-0465 (3/04)
Catalog shows two thermoelectric modules, 1.17"
sq & 1.56" sq
for $24.95 & 34.95. Takes charge cards.
sales@herbach.com
http://www.herbach.com

THS Engineering, Washington NJ
908-835-8608 (3/04)
Surplus peltier module dealer.
http://www.thsengineering.com

 

[ec_hern]

Ebay

 

[hrdwrjnkie]

Thanks for the info guys, I ended up going with All Electronics Corp.

Any ideas/comments/opinions on the chiller setup?

 

[M4d-K10wN]

A normal person would slap the peliter directly on the CPU, and then attempt to cool the top with a combination of water and air (where air would cool the water in the rad). I don't know why you're trying this, shall we say, "unique" configuration, but it's just crazy enough to work

 

[zer0signal667]

Originally posted by M4d-K10wN
A normal person would slap the peliter directly on the CPU, and then attempt to cool the top with a combination of water and air (where air would cool the water in the rad). I don't know why you're trying this, shall we say, "unique" configuration, but it's just crazy enough to work

It does work, it's been done before. It's a good way to cool more than one device. Water chillers are also used for cooling equipment which would be very difficult to attach a peltier to or has far too much surface area to cool with peltiers.

 

[hrdwrjnkie]

Yeah, the idea is to cool a vid card and a CPU with a smaller pelt that can run off of a (decent, 450W or better) system PSU. The pelt that I am going to use (when it arrives) only takes 3.5A off of the 12V rail.

This SHOULD make for a decently quiet (only the pump and a 2000RPM 120mm fan) setup, as opposed to the "normal person" configuration which would require a pump and a larger, noisier, fan on the radiator.

 

[zer0signal667]

Originally posted by hrdwrjnkie
Yeah, the idea is to cool a vid card and a CPU with a smaller pelt that can run off of a (decent, 450W or better) system PSU. The pelt that I am going to use (when it arrives) only takes 3.5A off of the 12V rail.

This SHOULD make for a decently quiet (only the pump and a 2000RPM 120mm fan) setup, as opposed to the "normal person" configuration which would require a pump and a larger, noisier, fan on the radiator.

Keep in mind you'll still need a radiator... I don't know if you are aware of that. A peltier that small won't cool your whole system, and any air cooled peltier will most likely require a much faster/louder fan than a radiator in a water loop.

 

[p0b0y]

I chilled my water, only to have condensation form on my damn hoses and waterblock, LOL. I didnt use a pelt, but watch for that issue. Im about to drop a pelt on my cpu though

 

[DeViLdUdE]

hrdwrjnkie, update your thread about what you are doing. I'm thinking about using pelt(actually two pelts cooled with heatsink fan combo) to chill the water in my loop. I put a pic on it and they shot it down(saying it won't work that's why I didn't progress on it). So yeh if yours is going to work tell me and keep updating.

Here's my Idea:
maybe I'll redesign it later...

 

[Shieze]

DeViLdUdE your idea sounds ok, except for one issue. I don't think acrylic is that good of a conductor, if the res was made out of copper or aluminum then it would probably work out a lot better.

May be better if you can somehow attach the pelts to the rad.

 

[DeViLdUdE]

Yeh your idea of using copper is a lot better, but I don't know where I could get them and it would need welding or something. I already have the two coldplates and building the acrylic enclosement. I'm going to experiment.

 

[zer0signal667]

Originally posted by DeViLdUdE
Yeh your idea of using copper is a lot better, but I don't know where I could get them and it would need welding or something. I already have the two coldplates and building the acrylic enclosement. I'm going to experiment.

Yah, using acrylic is going to be a mistake... Maybe you could build the acrylic box with 2 copper plates as ends. You could use epoxy to hold the pieces together and put some sealant along the inside corners for added protection.

 

[DeViLdUdE]

Originally posted by zer0signal667
Yah, using acrylic is going to be a mistake... Maybe you could build the acrylic box with 2 copper plates as ends. You could use epoxy to hold the pieces together and put some sealant along the inside corners for added protection.

Well that's what I was going to do. The two red lines are the cold plates but if only I can make a copper box with the coldplates at each end (where the peltiers go) It will be a lot better coz the coldness will spread thru the whole box.

 

[hrdwrjnkie]

I'm planning on using the pelt attached to a standard CPU block, with no res in the system, just a tee. The pump will send water into the CPU block with the cold side of the pelt. The hot side will have a standard air cooler on it. The chilled water will then go into the block on the processor, absorb heat, and then reenter the pump.

Hmmm... paint skills

[Edit]Edited image to update what the setup will be

 

[hrdwrjnkie]

bumpity... any opinions or experience?

 

[zer0signal667]

Originally posted by hrdwrjnkie
I'm planning on using the pelt attached to a standard CPU block, with no res in the system, just a tee. The pump will send water into the CPU block with the cold side of the pelt. The hot side will have a standard air cooler on it. The chilled water will then go into the block on the processor, absorb heat, and then reenter the pump.

Hmmm... paint skills

This will work... but in order for it to work efficiently you'll need several peltiers, whose Qmax add up to more than the heat output of your CPU.

By the way... whenever I glance at your name, I think "hardwrinkle"... strange

 

[weapon--]

TEC based waterchillers...you'd end up with a lot more efficient setup if you built a phase change chiller (which can be done for under $150 with ease).

aite, I'll get back to the topic at hand.

if you want the most effective TEC based chiller, the best way to set one up is with twin H2O loops. that might sound really large, complex and expensive but it doesn't have to be any of the above.

the heat exchanger is the key to making it work well while still being semi-compact. twin HDD waterblocks with TECs between them is a really effective way to swap heat between loops.
pic of course:

those blocks will support up to six 40mm TECs. Of course, you can run fewer pelts and vary the voltage to control the chill factor. Insulation obviously required regardless of the cooling power.
You could scale that down to the size needed for 2 TECs or 4 TECs. if you can built your own copper waterblocks, the materials to build a solid copper heatexchanger with 2 blocks to hold 4 pelts would probably be about $60....cheaper if you use aluminum add a bunch of anti-corrosion chems (if you are shooting for low temps, you will need antifreeze and other chems in there anyway)

just to make sure on that price, a quick trip to onlinemetals.com
copper plate, C110, 2.5" x 6" x .25" (4x) = $45ish add 1/2 fittings about another $6 so $51ish
^solid copper route
copper + aluminum version of same blocks = about $30, about $36 with fittings
pure aluminum versions with same dimensions = about $15, $21 with brass fittings
larger pure aluminum versions (something like 6 x 4 x .75" blocks) = about $25, $31 with brass fittings.

setting up a TEC chiller loop is kinda like setting up a phase change cascade loop (but about a thousand times easier):

high temp loop:
pump -> big honkin' heatercore (77 bonneville core with dual 120s comes to mind for some reason ) -> heat exchanger block -> back to pump.

low temp loop: Pump -> heat exchanger block -> CPU waterblock -> back to pump.

you will need decent flow capacity on the pumps but they don't have to be too insane. the pump on the low temp side can actually be fairly small. the pump on the high temp side should have a little more kick to it.

advantages of this setup:
--multiple TECs so if one bites it, you will have plenty of time to get everything shut down without damage.
--no TEC/cold plate directly mouted to the CPU - the waterblock will have direct contact so there is no TEC to act as an insulator if it dies.
--it can produce very low coolant temps
--chilled coolant can go to multiple blocks
--temps are very controllable - just change the rating of the TECs/number of TECs/voltage to the TECs

disadvantages:
--a bit expensive (depending on what you use to build it)
--requires condensation prevention (but so do other TEC setups)
--it can suck up a lot of electricity due to multiple TECs
--it is not as efficient as phase change chillers and probably just about as expensive to build
--overall size (not an issue with an external H2O box), it can be scaled down with smaller pumps, smaller heatexchanger, etc.

since I mentioned the 77 bonneville heatercore...
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=706562

 

[hrdwrjnkie]

Weapon--

love your idea, but I'm doing this more as a proof-of-concept for the higher-ups so that I can get $$ for a more elaborate project, like thw one that you have proposed. THe odds of this setup ever touching a CPU are slim.

I'm adding some actual images so that you can see exactly what's going on.

The first two are shots of the cheap pump and the makeshift reservoir setup:

These two are of the heatsink/cold plate setup. Yes, I know aluminum sucks, but i had a $100 budget for the whole setup and the CPU/VGA blocks took up over half of that.

The last three here are pictures of the beast put together.

The black box is a $6 project box from radioshack sealed up good with heat-resistant RTV. The heatsink is an Intel stock unit, and the pelt is a 50-watter. It should all be together by this evening, I'm just waiting on some RTV to set and then leaktesting. as it sits now, that aluminum coldplate drops to about -10C in a (does quick Google conversion) 24C ambient room.

 

[weapon--]

suggestions for that setup -

instead of using a flat plate for the cold plate, get another pin-style heatsink to use on the inside of the box with the water. That will give you more surface area contact between the water and the metal on the cold side of the peltier. basically, just sandwich the pelt between two hsfs - the one on the outside will cool the hotside with the fan, the one inside the water tank will increase cooling area.

get a larger pelt - I would go with an 80w pelt as the bare minimum. with water flowing thru the loop, heat from a CPU, heat from a pump, etc. I doubt you will see much of a measurable decrease in coolant or CPU temps without more powerful pelts and increased surface area for contact between the coldplate and the water.

been there, tried that.

 

[DeViLdUdE]

Nice Ideas weapon and hrd... hrd post some update pics once your done with your setup. And weapon do you think 2 - 3 80 pelts( that pulls 9 amps each on a 12v rail@15-18amps) will run on a 300w Fortron PSU?

 

[hrdwrjnkie]

Originally posted by DeViLdUdE
Nice Ideas weapon and hrd... hrd post some update pics once your done with your setup. And weapon do you think 2 - 3 80 pelts( that pulls 9 amps each on a 12v rail@15-18amps) will run on a 300w Fortron PSU?

Most PSU's top out at about 17A on the +12V rail, and that's if that is the only thing that you are running.

 

[weapon--]

i never run TECs off of anything but and independent power supply like a 13.8v 25a or whatever the peltier requires.

80w dont have that much of a power hit:
Imax = 8.0 Amps
Qmax = 80.0 Watts
Vmax = 16.1 Volts

are you running anything else off of the fortron?

is that the same one as the Verax FSP300-60ATV?

if so the 12V is rated 15.5v.

that might let the smoke out of that PSU after a few days of load time.

 

[DeViLdUdE]

The fortron will be running a Nexus fan controller w/ 2 cathodes then on 2 and 3 fan controller, each will be controlling 2 evercool 120mm fans then on 1 fan controller, it'll be controlling 1 TT Led 120mm fan... then on 4th the 2 cathodes. It'll be running a pump and some mini led(led feet) + the pelt(s)(so if I use 2 pelts that's plus 2 80mm fans for the heatsinks. I think the heatsink will be able to cool an 80w pelt coz I saw a Swiftech heatsink cooling a 226w pelt. So that's all the things I'll be running on that PSU.