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good game thermaltake

A

AznAnarchy99

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
1,187
my thermaltake 420 silent power psu that came with my case just died... shoudla saw it coming with all of the power taken by my components...im in need of a new psu and theres 3 that ive been looking at for some time..what im looking for is something stable and powerful, will last for a long time (upgrade wise), and looks pretty (no super wire mess etc, uv and led fans is a plus but not neccessary)

im looking at..
1. OCZ Powerstream 520

2.OCZ Modstream 520

3. Antec Neopower 480

a quick response would be nice since i wanna pick this up today..
 
AznAnarchy99 said:
my thermaltake 420 silent power psu that came with my case just died... shoudla saw it coming with all of the power taken by my components...im in need of a new psu and theres 3 that ive been looking at for some time..what im looking for is something stable and powerful, will last for a long time (upgrade wise), and looks pretty (no super wire mess etc, uv and led fans is a plus but not neccessary)

im looking at..
1. OCZ Powerstream 520

2.OCZ Modstream 520

3. Antec Neopower 480

a quick response would be nice since i wanna pick this up today..
Click to expand...
AznAnarchy99, all 3 of your listed choices are solid units. Due you have a budget limitation? If so, you might also want to consider the FSP AX500A http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104934

If you're dead set on one of the 3 you listed, I'm more inclined to pick the OCZ Powerstream 520. But I have no experience with it so I'll defer to the Guru's.

If you have no problem spending more cash (well worth it in this case) Drum roll please....
The PC Power & Cooling Turbo Cool 510 is widely considered to be the best long term investment you could make in a PSU http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/power_supplies/highperformance/turbocools/510/index.htm
 
Id say the Powerstream personally

xbit is busted right now
(at least its back online though :p )
but Id recommend looking at the "other" section
both the ATX Power Supply Units Roundup part I & II
as well as the Power Supply Testing methodology specifiically starting on page 13

hopefully they'll have it fixed soon, right now all links are going to a holding page
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/atx-psu.html


if you workup the worsecase draw and a "typical" draw for your config
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=844691
that would give you you amp ratio of the total wattage and youd be able to look that up on the Modstream and Powerstream crossload charts,
I cant remember if the Antec Neopower was in the first roundup or not.

I do have a copy of the Powerstream 520's crossload chart here
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1027591011&postcount=20


are we talkin the config in your sig?
are there additional components, fans, nics whatever
what size fans? I'll give you a hand working up your amp draws and wattage ratios
 
If you do the Powerstream, don't do the 520W.. Do the 420W.

Unless your opinion is that you could really benefit from that extra 3A on the 12V rail. ;)
 
I have 400 to spend but this came up as a surprise.. already spent so much on my comp as of late.. im looking to spend no more than 150. yes it is the config in my sig

Intel 3.2 E (stock fan)
ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe
Corsair XMS CMX512-3200 (changing to a gig of geil pc4000)
ATi Radeon x800XT PE with ATi Silencer 4 @ 550 core/590 mem
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS
Thermaltake Silver Xaser III Case
4 Vantec 80mm Vantec Tornados (80mm)
3 Vantec Spectrums (80mm)
Western Digital 120 IDE
Western Digital 250 SATA
2 Cold cathode lights
sony 16x dvd drive

btw i will also be adding an koolance exos-al in the future

If you do the Powerstream, don't do the 520W.. Do the 420W.
Click to expand...

and ill be looking into that, btw im reading some of ur reviews johnny
 
I'll workup your numbers
the old discontinued 470 is in that link above too
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1027591011&postcount=20

from what jonnyGURU has told me its likely the 420 is backward compatible to ATX12V v1.2 and forward to ATX12V v2.0 in its crossload
like the 470

whereas you can clearly see the 520 falls off on the upper left and is only backward compatible to v1.3 not v1.2
 
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/ati-powercons_4.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/picture/?src=/images/video/ati-powercons/t1.gif&1=1

theoretical maximum
http://takaman.jp/D/?M=PcQAcG5HGeHdSAgHKhW5HET4kG5@0DaHdYbZAZavXCMZ&english
(note other HDDs not listed are actually fans :p )

worsecase realworld draw (CPU\GPU\mobo 100%, fans drives 25%)
+12V @ 18A (216W)
combined +3.3V & +5V wattage @ 82W

for instance a modstream
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/atx-psu_11.html
modstream520.gif



547GG.gif

bakward compatible to ATX12V V1.2
red crossload profile below
(actual ATX12V 1.3 hybrid)

ocz2.gif

bakward compatible to ATX12V V1.3
green crossload profile below
(actual ATX12V 1.3 hybrid)

ATX.gif

Charts & Graphs by Xbit \ Oleg Artamonov

and the Neopower wasnt in the DB and might well be different than the True Power 430 that was since the 430 is ATX12V v1.3 and the Neopower v2.0
antec.gif
 
im a bit confused by the charts. btw my cpu is a prescott so i changed that in the takaman site. not really a psu pro so could you explain the pics? or explain what your trying to say

takaman says that i need at least 26a on the 12v and 14a on the 5v.

each of my tornado uses 9.1 w on the 12v line so tahts 36.4w
 
AznAnarchy99 said:
each of my tornado uses 9.1 w on the 12v line so tahts 36.4w
Click to expand...

A * V = W

So each of your Tornadoes are only .75A. All four is only 3A.
 
forget what i said about the fans etc on my earlier post. i saw that czar put it in the takaman thing already. basically what it told me is that i need:

5v - 14a
12v - 26a

so ive been reading the pages with those charts on xbit a bit more carefully so the 520 powerstream would be good for my comp?
 
AznAnarchy99 said:
forget what i said about the fans etc on my earlier post. i saw that czar put it in the takaman thing already. basically what it told me is that i need:

5v - 14a
12v - 26a

so ive been reading the pages with those charts on xbit a bit more carefully so the 520 powerstream would be good for my comp?
Click to expand...

A Powerstream 420ADJ would be good for your comp. ;)
 
thing about calculators is that they add all the maximum draws together
but in the computer that never happens, when the drives and fans spinup and need their maximum draws the CPU & GPU isnt pegged and drawing at 100%

so that was the adjusted figures I came up with
(these are new figures with the prescott)
+12V @ 18.5A (222W)
combined +3.3V & +5V wattage @ 82W

so then you go up 82W (scale on the left)
and over 222W (scale on the bottom)
and that would be your worse case darw
then you start to decrease both those
the drives and fans are already at a "somewhat stable" 1\4 of their draw
static in the case of the fans, enough power to keep them spinning
in the case of the HDDs its that plus the power needed to move the armetue during a seek so its a little dynamic, the CPU and GPU if powered off the +12V
(which would be totally in the case of the CPU, and only in the case of your GPU, but say if you had PCI-E somtime in the future would also be totally on the +12V) will account for the majority of the drop your guessing at

looks like for your current config in any of those supplys your dead center it its sweet spot powerband with very stable +12V voltages, but they do show dramatically the range each supply has

in the case of the modstream your +5V rail when pegging at 100% for the worse case senerio might have a pretty large (but in spec) 5% fluctuation
but your +12V in the green

the 520 Powerstream youd be green (1%) all the way

the 470 Powerstream your +12V rail would be in the 3%
but the +5V rail in the green


the Powerstream 420 may or maynot be similar to the 470
your current config and likely upgrade path doesnt come anywhere near that area that breaks up in the Powerstream 520 (upper left) I certainly wouldnt use that supply with older configs but for a modern on, Id disagree with jonnyGURU in this case, I think youll get more stability with the 520W for your current and likely configs ;)
(assuming the 420 is similar to the 470)
 
Ice Czar said:
the Powerstream 420 may or maynot be similar to the 470
your current config and likely upgrade path doesnt come anywhere near that area that breaks up in the Powerstream 520 (upper left) I certainly wouldnt use that supply with older configs but for a modern on, Id disagree with jonnyGURU in this case, I think youll get more stability with the 520W for your current and likely configs ;)
(assuming the 420 is similar to the 470)
Click to expand...

That's cool, but it's not the break up the 520ADJ does that I'm concerned with.. especially since this PC isn't going to be "5v heavy" enough to do what we see in Oleg's graphic.

The 420ADJ isn't like the 470. The reason why the 470 was discontinued is because the Topower chassis it was based on was discontinued. The 420ADJ is very similar to the 520ADJ. My big thing is I can't justify spending an extra $50 for a mere 3A on the 12V rail when the 12V rail is already at 30A. That's just me, though. I'm a cheap bastard. :D
 
true thats a pretty big hit :p
and he certainly doesnt need the extra 3A
based on the testing youve done on the 420 what would you guess for the fluctuation for AznAnarchy99 worse case crossload?

+12V @ 18.5A (222W)
combined +3.3V & +5V wattage @ 82W

BTW AznAnarchy99 if you hadnt realized you have the infamous
jonnyGURU helping you out here ;)

(infamous as in bad = very very good :p )
 
Ice Czar said:
based on the testing youve done on the 420 what would you guess for the fluctuation for AznAnarchy99 worse case crossload?
Click to expand...

Can't say without actually having the whole product line here to test, and it's not as if AznAnarchy99 is going to have any kind of crossload issues, but it seems to me that the crossload is less problematic as the "total wattage" is less. This could be because the rectifier is the same in the models, but the transistors are different. I'm really not sure.
 
lol yea i was reading his reviews from a reconmendation at the anandtech forums. running my current config is something that im looking for but im also trying to run my current as well as future configs stably (sp?) with tons of power hungry stuff (water, r520s, g70s, etc)
 
AznAnarchy99 said:
g70s
Click to expand...


PCI-E 150W spec
thats a big hit spec calls for 12.5A +12V via the mobo

the G70's though
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=22917
could be as high as 225W

thats a totally different class of PSU
some of the 600watt SLis might be relevant
(S-12, Enermax PCP&C Turbo Cool, Silverstone, but depending on the total config you might just blow out that topend too.)
 
just used g70 as an example. most likely gonna be an ati person for years to come. but yea, something stable for the future.. so 420 or 520? maybe even 600 if they are under 200?
 
my "upgrade" cut and paste
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Momental said:
Given the fact that I'll be using an nForce4 MoBo with PCI-e graphics, does this have to have a 24-pin connection? I still haven't gotten a definitive "absolutely!" from anything I've read. If it will reinforce "future-proofing", then I'll most certainly go with a 24-pinner. It sounds to me like dual 12v rails aren't completely necessary at the moment, but once again, what's the harm in having it if you may indeed need it one day?
)
Click to expand...


the ATX 2.2 mobo spec urgently recommends any PCI-E mobo employ the new 24 pin standard, so definately get a natively 24 pin supply, getting a supply that also has a ton of +12V amps is important for an infrastructure investment, PCI-E's spec just doubled from 75W (6.25A +12V ) to 150Watts (12.5A +12V) now those cards arent out, and even when they are that doesnt mean they will actually employ all that current, but the historical trend hasnt exactly been down :p

so as far as upgrade paths its really a question of how far you want to go
as mentioned dual cores arent adding alot, a drive will need 2A as an average, but only at spinup, at which time your not pegging the CPU or GPU, under normal operation post spinup it needs approx 0.5A +12V (varies a little with seeks and the arm moving) again not a great concern with just a few drives, but adds up with any large array. (I run a 6 drive RAID)

what youd be hard pressed to get right now is a supply that would do dual core, dual PCI-E 150W cards and alot of drives (about the only supplies out there would be the 700W Zippy and PCP&C 850ETX), but provided its lean on drives dual core + dual PCI-E 150W is likely doeable with many of the modern 600Watt supplies like the Seasonic S-12, Enermax SLi, PCP&C 510 SLI (650W), ect

for a single PCI-E 75W w\ dual core alot more PSUs are available
even older ATX12V v1.3 hybrid supplies like The bigger Powerstreams will do
and many would likely be relavent even with an eventual upgrade to PCI-E 150W

for quite and efficient with lots of +12V amps the S-12 600W is hard to beat
there is an SLi varient of it as well


;)

as a note, I think its very likely the ATX12V mobo spec will change with the release of PCI-E 150W and add 4 more pin to the 4 pin +12V auxillary mobo connect, making it an 8 pin like you see on an EPS12V supply, in fact I thingk the 2 specs will merge at that point
(to EPS12V common plane, not split plane) so a supply that is an all in one, being both ATX12V v2.01 and EPS12V compatible would be an advantage
(the 24 pin connector and split rails was adopted by ATX12V \ formfactor.org, from the EPS12V SSI (server system infrastructure) spec, Intel drives both bodies, and merging the specs looks more and more likely to at least some degree)

the advantage of split rails is the isolation of variable loads being drawn form competing devices, enhancing rail stability in supplies with just basic load regulation schemes, in supplies with superior load regulation this isnt nearly as important, and since all the amps are on a single rail its more flexible, with all the amps available.
the mark of a truely compliant ATX12V v2.0 supply isnt the connector but rather the dual rails, (an EPS12V would have 3 or 4) there are many supplies that are compatible across specs, but not compliant ;)

So compliance isnt a defacto indicator
The PCP&C in my sig is an example of that, its an EPS12V compatible, but ATX12V v1.3 compliant supply (single +12V rail regulated to 1%)
that outperforms all but a few EPS12V compliant supplies (Like the PCP&C 850ETX :p )

The King of the upgrade path costs a small fortune and is that PCP&C 850ETX it has a whopping 60A +12V (rated at 50C) across 4x +12V rails (split plane, each CPU get its own) and is designed specifically for dual cpu dualcores with dual SLi PCI-E 150W cards and a large RAID array thrown in
in otherwords a modern kickas workstation that would put many a current quad to shame
 
Ice Czar said:
BTW AznAnarchy99 if you hadnt realized you have the infamous
jonnyGURU helping you out here ;) (infamous as in bad = very very good :p )
Click to expand...
What, and you're not infamous Ice? Between you two guys (and computerpro3, spectre, _Korruption_ just to name a few) many guys here (including myself) have been able to educate ourselves on the most overlooked and possibly, most important component in the modern pc. The power supply. We thank you Dudes for all the help and sharing of knowledge and wisdom.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go get laid.
 
Renegade87 said:
Ice Czar said:
BTW AznAnarchy99 if you hadnt realized you have the infamous
jonnyGURU helping you out here ;) (infamous as in bad = very very good :p )
Click to expand...
What, and you're not infamous Ice? Between you two guys (and computerpro3, spectre, _Korruption_ just to name a few) many guys here (including myself) have been able to educate ourselves on the most overlooked and possibly, most important component in the modern pc. The power supply. We thank you Dudes for all the help and sharing of knowledge and wisdom.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go get laid.
Click to expand...

Oklahoma Wolf, gee, burningrave101, SRESSTEST, Vertigo Acid, SJetski71, ect ect ect
lots of depth of talent here

and Id like to thank all of you ;)

but enough of the mutual admiration society :p

(and apologies to anyone left out)
 
if i go 520 would that help me later on since the peak wattage is much higher? and the 520 is only $30 more on newegg
 
well the extra amps devoted to the +12V rail is just 3
or 36Watts more :p

most of that extra capacity is on the +5V rail where you dont need it and cant really use it

Ive seen preliminary +12V based wattage figures for the nex gen PCI-E cards in the 225 Watt range, so longterm infrastructure investments that cover all potential possible configs are pretty hard to do right now

the only totally future proof choice being that 850ETX w\ 60A +12V and at about $470 I think it might be out of your budget :p
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/about/whatnew_850_ETX.htm
 
Renegade87 said:
What, and you're not infamous Ice? Between you two guys (and computerpro3, spectre, _Korruption_ just to name a few) many guys here (including myself) have been able to educate ourselves on the most overlooked and possibly, most important component in the modern pc. The power supply. We thank you Dudes for all the help and sharing of knowledge and wisdom.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go get laid.
Click to expand...

Really hoping not by anyone on your list cause I am going have to give that a bg thanks but no thanks.
 
Ice Czar said:
well the extra amps devoted to the +12V rail is just 3
or 36Watts more :p

most of that extra capacity is on the +5V rail where you dont need it and cant really use it

Ive seen preliminary +12V based wattage figures for the nex gen PCI-E cards in the 225 Watt range, so longterm infrastructure investments that cover all potential possible configs are pretty hard to do right now

the only totally future proof choice being that 850ETX w\ 60A +12V and at about $470 I think it might be out of your budget :p
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/about/whatnew_850_ETX.htm
Click to expand...

But do they include a shoe horn and lube so it can be properly inserted at that price? :p
 
of course, but after the dual CPUs and the Video cards its hardly needed :p
 
this is why i stayed away from thermaltake PSU's. read many of reviews about them failing,along with OCZ. i got the Vantec ION becuase of the 3-year warrenty.
 
Lt.Doomsday said:
this is why i stayed away from thermaltake PSU's. read many of reviews about them failing,along with OCZ. i got the Vantec ION becuase of the 3-year warrenty.
Click to expand...
A lot of the Vantec IONs are Topowers, along with all the OCZ models ;)
 
Vantec ION 460W == OCZ Powerstream 420W believe it or not.

Of course, the Vantec costs less. ;)
 
how about dual rails on the 600 watt powerstream? is it worth it for 200? and if i go only dual processor in the future (most likely i wont be using 2 video cards ) would that tax out the 420?

i just have like a bad feeling about the number 420 cause my TT was a 420 and my bday is on 4-20 etc lol...
 
UPDATE. my TT didnt go out.. somehow i got it working, i immediatly turned off all of my OCs and removed a fan that wasnt really doing anything. Im gonna get the 520 OCZ anyway since the extra 30 bucks from the 420 doesnt really matter to me and i dont trust TT PSUs anymore

Thanks Czar and Guru for all of your help in explaining PSUs to me
 
AznAnarchy99 said:
UPDATE. my TT didnt go out.. somehow i got it working, i immediatly turned off all of my OCs and removed a fan that wasnt really doing anything. Im gonna get the 520 OCZ anyway since the extra 30 bucks from the 420 doesnt really matter to me and i dont trust TT PSUs anymore

Thanks Czar and Guru for all of your help in explaining PSUs to me
Click to expand...

Why? I don't think there is a mid-range psu alive that could run that system iwth 18a on the 12v rail.
 
jonnyGURU said:
Vantec ION 460W == OCZ Powerstream 420W believe it or not.

Of course, the Vantec costs less. ;)
Click to expand...
The ION2 460W? It doesn't look anything like my Powerstream. Bottom-mounted 120mm fan, no rear exhaust, and it looks physically smaller. The specs do match up, except on the +5VSB, being 3A versus 2A on the Powerstream 420W. Most 120mm fans are 25mm thick, so I don't see how it fits in there, with Topower using such tall heatsinks, hence the rear-mounted 80mm fan.
 
_Korruption_ said:
The ION2 460W? It doesn't look anything like my Powerstream. Bottom-mounted 120mm fan, no rear exhaust, and it looks physically smaller. The specs do match up, except on the +5VSB, being 3A versus 2A on the Powerstream 420W. Most 120mm fans are 25mm thick, so I don't see how it fits in there, with Topower using such tall heatsinks, hence the rear-mounted 80mm fan.
Click to expand...

DOH!

I get those FUCKING names screwed up all of the time.

I mean MODSTREAM. It is to the Modstream what the MGE Vortec is to the X-Connect.

It's the Modstream w/o the modular interface.

I almost think I'd do better with cryptic part numbers than catchy names because then I'd have to think twice about what I'm typing. :p
 
Spectre said:
Really hoping not by anyone on your list cause I am going have to give that a bg thanks but no thanks.
Click to expand...
LOL, Absolutely not Spectre. I don't go that way. If anyone here does, that's fine for them, but I love Women. Always have, Always will.
 
IMO no

but I place very little value in "features" over power quality
I figure that I'll get as good a power quality as I can afford and add my own features
also I doubt the TT is rated at 40C, whereas the OCZ\Topower is
so a direct comparision of amps is an apples to oranges senerio
 
I still don't undersatand why companies make the ATX connector modular on some of those supplies(Like that Thermaltake, and The Ultra).
 
considering the resistance added and its impact on the +3.3V line (or worse a bad connection by the user)


because they are idiots
they have built in an additional point of failure



http://www.pcpowercooling.com/technology/myths/
2. DON'T LOSE POWER WITH MODULAR PLUGS
Due to their look, convenience, and cost savings for manufacturers, modular plugs have become a popular power supply feature. Unfortunately, there has been little or no discussion of the impact of this feature on overall performance and reliability. The fact is, modular plugs limit power by adding to electrical resistance. The voltage drop can be as much as would occur in 2 feet of standard wire. Worse yet, modular plugs utilize delicate pins that can easily loosen, corrode, and burn, creating the potential for a major system failure. That's why pros specify uninterrupted wire!
Click to expand...


The Unofficial [H]ard|OCP What happens if I use an adapter on my ATX connector....

In conclusion, I will still say that the use of an adapter is acceptable.. AS LONG AS the use of such adapter does not drop the voltage below spec. Since the exponential curve of voltage drop is on such a slow curve downward as amperage is increased, it's not likely that your voltages will drop below spec if they are within 3% at idle. If you do the math, you'll see the greatest fluctuation in the above examples is only just over 1% (going from 10A w/ no adapter to 20A with two.)
Click to expand...
 
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