GM Suspends Chevy Volt Production after Poor Sales

westrock2000 said:
I absolutly sure this car was the result of politics and not what people wanted. The fact that the Chevy Cruze Eco gets better gas mileage
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The goal was never to have super duper gas mileage. The gasoline is a backup for the battery. The point was the ability to be all electric for short range day-to-day city driving (burning zero gas), without being SOL that odd time you need to drive a few hundred km.
 
Kevstra said:
The goal was never to have super duper gas mileage. The gasoline is a backup for the battery. The point was the ability to be all electric for short range day-to-day city driving (burning zero gas), without being SOL that odd time you need to drive a few hundred km.
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I think that's his point.... in a nutshell. Nobody really cares about being zero-emissions and using no gas during day-to-day driving when it costs them $15,000.00 more than a prius which is also intended for the exact same purpose. This car represents what we hope will be the only type of car available on the market in 10-15 years. IE, completely green cars. The problem is we need to make enough large-scale demand for these products that you can large-scale manufacture them to bring down the price.

ATM, the price-premium for the 'goverment's ultra-green idealized car' is so much that even playing $0.00 in gas prices for day-to-day driving won't recoup the costs less you keep the car for 15+ years. If I could buy this car for $18k to $22k, I would probably buy it just because I do entirely city driving.

Not with a $15,000.00 price premium though. I only spend around $20.00 every 2 weeks on gas. So a month's gas for me is $40.00 and a year around $480.00. So, if theres a 15k price premium sure this car would pay for itself in savings after a mere 30 years not inc inflation. I kid because no car will never last that long without having severe mechanical problems and if the repair cost is in any way equally inflated by that same price-premium, it might take even longer to break even.

I'd love to buy this car 10-20 years in the future though when maybe all cars are hybrid or pure electric cars and the price of electric cars come down to a 'standard' price of a normal car ($15-25k).
 
I test drove one. No real heat in cold weather on battery. Slow even in sport mode. The center stack with hard capacitive controls and small labels is a nightmare. Lots of road noise at speed because the hatch area and wheel wells are open to the cabin for no gd reason. The premium bose audio sounds like shit. Oh yeah and a 45 year break even to its sister the cruze eco...
 
Not to mention when the time comes to replace the batteries, it will probably cost as much as it does to re-fuel a Nuclear Submarine.
 
The reason the Volt failed was because it's just like any other Hybrid car, in that it doesn't work and too damn expensive. Lets not forget that GM promised a 100% electric car with a gas generator. Something that didn't need a transmission and had more battery.
 
Ashbringer said:
The reason the Volt failed was because it's just like any other Hybrid car, in that it doesn't work and too damn expensive. Lets not forget that GM promised a 100% electric car with a gas generator. Something that didn't need a transmission and had more battery.
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GM is run by the same calcified regime that has shut down everything from alternative fuel research to scientific research concerning climate change for a couple decades. The irony is that GM needed the same type of bailout from which their politics totally opposed.
 
Anyone who didn't see this coming the moment GM released the pricing figures is woefully naive. My main reason I don't like hybrids? They're either incredibly expensive in comparison to their non-hybrid models and provide only marginally better mileage or they are some of the most hideous vehicles on the road. And the Nissan Leaf, while better than the Volt, is still entirely too expensive and restrictive in comparison to other small cars. Honestly? I'd rather pay less than half and get a Fiat 500 that gets worse mileage but allows me to pocket the more than $20K difference and allow me to have a car that could be described as fun rather than 'yet another generic sedan'. And, yes, I know the 500 is a completely different class of car but if I'm buying a mostly-commuter car I'd rather have a smaller model anyway. But even if I were looking at a sedan, the same would come into play. I'd pay less and get similar mileage to pocket the massive difference. The Ford Focus for instance, or any number of other options.
 
bigbadgreen said:
the volt just hit at a bad time. it really is a step forward and that comes with it's own issues. higher cost and no set infrastructure to support the technology. There is also no one set path for cars in the future like there has been for the last 100 years, that being internal combustion. Right now you've got gas and diesel, hybrid mostly internal combustion, hybrid mostly electric, full electric and hydrogen and natural gas. That's a lot of different paths, without being able to show that the technology will be future proof it's hard to get people behind it.
People are scared of full electric and mostly electric hybruids because of the hype around battery cost and range on those batteries. This car has been thrown into the political ring, there is no denying it. People have their various reasons as to why. Most of them are crap, some are valid.
To people who say they don't care about mpg, get over yourself. At the very least you should want to conserve fossil fuels because they are such a great source of energy. But as the oil companies have told us, there is enough oil in the US for another whole 100 years. Wow a whole 100 years. It's laughable to see people not care about using up these resources and extending their life through developing technology. Oil will always be needed as long as it is available because it is such a potent stored form of energy. Nobody can deny that. Wanting to use it up just to spite people who are labeled green is just short sighted.
this coming from an owner of a restored muscle car.
It really is sad to see this technology struggle. The R&D involved will hopefully spawn cheaper production as time goes on. In the volt and other newer models. We need these cars to succeed so that we don't trap ourselves.
I also predict a similar struggle with the new models of hydrogen powered cars. There are so many rumors surrounding these cars. People are always apprehensive towards a new technology, we don't need mass hype against these things or we're just going to sit idle.
I think they need to develop a few standards. the first being a standard cell unit, that is quick disconntect capable. They need to set up the infrastructure at current gas stations to be able to change these in a matter of munutes through a streamlined process. It could be similar to having yout oil changed. a tech in a sunken work bay removes a panel and a quick disconnect and then drops out the cell unit, the tech then replaces the unit with a freshly charged one. you are back on the road with fully charged cells in around 10 minutes instead of the 8+ hours it currently takes.
second standard is equiping current gas stations with hydrogen fill stations, with a standard fill connector.
Hopefully the R&D will advance and we'll see cheaper versions of alternative powered cars and development of cell and hybrid technology. We really need for these ideas to succeed and spawn better ideas and cheaper more fuel efficient vehicles.
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There will never be a good time for an electric car.

No matter what form it takes, using electricity as a motive force will alway require some sort of energy conversion and storage that far outweigh any similar considerations when dealing with a chemically-based motive force.

Whether the source of that electricity is oil, solar or mechanical, there is simply no way to store electricity with an efficiency that in any way approaches that of a chemical fuel.

On a related note, some of the most comical discussions I've witnessed in my life have been about EV proponents expectations.
They seem to think that they should be able to just plug in and charge their car at work, or while shopping, without consideration of the fact that their employer or the merchant is not interested in underwriting the cost of "fueling" their car.

The same holds true of anyone who does not live in a single-family dwelling. If I live in an apartment building or a condo, I am not interested in underwriting the electrical usage of that guy who wants to plug in his Prius to an outlet that he does not own.

You're right about infrastructure, however.
The infrastructure issue is a classic case of the cart before the horse. Unfortunately, it's an oft-repeated one.
Governments have a really bad habit of mandating change before a safe mechanism to allow that change has been developed.

Remember when 'lead' was banned from use in gas for reducing pre-ignition? That brought on MTBE, the use of which has cost oil companies billions of dollars in health-related issues.
The same holds true with the mandate to use ethanol in gas. The fact that it damages engines and is a horribly inefficient fuel didn't stop the government.
That's not even considering the issue of how growing corn for fuel causes large problems for those who raise livestock.

Additionally, there are many regulatory and legal issues that require the governments support at the federal, state and local level.
Any industry is crazy to attempt to develop a new system without that support, yet the government also has a bad history of pledging support to develop the infrastucture for alternative fuels, then changing their mind.

Look at things like shale oil and hydrogen.

The use of hydrogen as a fuel is the best of the alternatives out there, but the government will have to reverse itself a second time to induce further progress on that infrastructure, and I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon.
 
Wow, I have to agree with a lot here...

Still I didn't think the 40 mile radius was too limiting. Not spectacular mind you, if it was 80, it would do better. But......
gunbust3r said:
I test drove one. No real heat in cold weather on battery. Slow even in sport mode. The center stack with hard capacitive controls and small labels is a nightmare. Lots of road noise at speed because the hatch area and wheel wells are open to the cabin for no gd reason. The premium bose audio sounds like shit. Oh yeah and a 45 year break even to its sister the cruze eco...
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I really wanted one... but cost obviously has held me off. And if this is true... that's a real deal breaker. Bad heat on battery, it's supposedly main source of power for 40 miles? Annoying controls? LOTS OF NOISE? for an electric car? are you fing kidding me?

Not to mention the design change, which was one of the worst idea I can imagine they did. Who the fuck thought that was a good idea?
 
Starcrossed said:
GM is run by the same calcified regime that has shut down everything from alternative fuel research to scientific research concerning climate change for a couple decades. The irony is that GM needed the same type of bailout from which their politics totally opposed.
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Amen! The day this government actually allows the big 3 auto companies to fail and just deal with the overall short term unemployment numbers is the day we might actually go beyond the internal combustion engine.
 
gathagan said:
There will never be a good time for an electric car.

No matter what form it takes, using electricity as a motive force will alway require some sort of energy conversion and storage that far outweigh any similar considerations when dealing with a chemically-based motive force.

Whether the source of that electricity is oil, solar or mechanical, there is simply no way to store electricity with an efficiency that in any way approaches that of a chemical fuel.
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gathagan is an electrical, chemical, and mechanical engineer.
 
gathagan said:
The same holds true of anyone who does not live in a single-family dwelling. If I live in an apartment building or a condo, I am not interested in underwriting the electrical usage of that guy who wants to plug in his Prius to an outlet that he does not own.
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That's really an issue with your apartment dwelling though being lazy and not wanting to have separate electric meters for each residence. You could argue the in the same way about that fancy OC computer you might have, or an aquarium, or your "medicinal growth operation" or your big screen TV, etc.
 
It gets poor sales because soccer moms are still busy convincing themselves that they, their husbands, and their only children need a fat@$$ Suburban or whatever because it's so hard to put a soccer ball in the trunk of a Honda Accord.

Try this out: Look for Suburbans, Hummers, and the like and try to find ones that have >3 people in them. You'll find it much more challenging than finding ones with only one person in them. THIS SHOULD BE SURPRISING!
 
psyclist said:
Wow there are more close minded folks on here than I thought. Lets keep the big picture in mind here kids. WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE
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Sadly that somewhere is probably gonna be China, they're investing in long term projects like crazy.

Short-term profit is the norm on this side of the pond, mostly because investors are fickle creatures, and society's conditioned to think the same way. If it's not good this year, it's not good period.
 
The 40 miles autonomy is way too short, especially as it probably slowly reduces after time, but I thought the gas extender was smart, an improvement to pure electric cars like the Tesla you can't drive past it range without spending a couple of hours refueling to 80%.

But for the rest, it's the same car design as all other Detroit cars, meaning that with the batteries on top, it's 750 lb heavier than the Cruze Eco, at 3,800 lb. Electric cars should be completely redesigned from scratch, not adapted to existing designs. Tesla got that right at least. And it's kind of ironical that such a small company with no car building experience could build a pure EV sedan for only $10K more than GM, with 4 times the autonomy for the same weight and sport-like performance of 5.6s to 60 miles compared to the Volt's 8.9s.
 
precariousgray said:
hrup dum digga doo deud ud urur ekawnimy, huh-hyuck!
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I can't tell if you're kidding or being sarcastic, but just in case:

Unemployment is still very high, underemployment is even worse, and despite the massaged job numbers* the actual labor force participation rate is back to where it was in 1984 while the population has grown by over 100 million since then.

And unemployment time after losing a job or being laid off has skyrocketed to unheard of levels.


Job wages, even with benefits added in, have stagnated since the 70's while productivity has risen dramatically. Or put more simply: people today are generally working much harder for much less than they did in the 70's. And the dual income earner family can no longer maintain the standard of living people are accustomed to anymore either, "so worker harder you lazy bum" isn't a valid argument either.


Some thing else to consider is that the costs of many things are rising dramatically. College and healthcare are probably the most prominent 2 but high energy costs, "merely" sustained at current price levels, are a big problem too. Put that into perspective vs. the stagnating wages and things start looking quite grim for the long term and near future standard of living here in the US.

Now is not the time to be making jokes about this situation, especially ones that portray people complaining about trying to make a living in this economy as ignorant red necks making knee jerk accusations. They definitely have something to complain about.

To try and add something to the thread that is at least somewhat more on topic, car sales in general are still thoroughly in the gutter:

Sales numbers for cars are about where they were near the end of the early 90's recession over 2 years into a supposed recovery despite the population having grown by nearly 100 million since that time period. People simply don't have the cash they used to and just can't buy cars like they used to, particularly expensive cars like the Volt. Or for that matter like the Tesla.

*the government keeps playing games with the birth/death models as well as using stupid gimmicks like counting unpaid internships as jobs to boost the numbers further. A more serious issue to consider is that many of the new jobs that are being created are low paying near minimum wage jobs that aren't enough for most to live on while "blue collar" jobs that paid a wage that allowed a middle class lifestyle continue to be outsourced.
 
Goodness forbid that Americans begin to rely upon public transportation system and build up the transportation infrastructure of our country so that public bussing and trains become way better than their current state.
 
psyclist said:
Wow there are more close minded folks on here than I thought. Lets keep the big picture in mind here kids. WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE
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It is not my closed mind. It is my wallet telling me not to buy. If you don't realize that, you have a closed mind. By the way, did you buy one?
 
celeron300 said:
Government Motors cannot sell what people don't want.
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They had plenty of problems selling what people don't want thirty years before the government became involved. Your political rhetoric is completely meaningless in this situation. Especially when the companies who did figure out what people wanted, had tons of government help to do it. :p
 
jimmyb said:
gathagan is an electrical, chemical, and mechanical engineer.
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Actually its just simple physics. You don't have to be a genius to understand that converting energy from one form to another and then store it are not anywhere near perfectly efficient processes. And they never will be. Oh efficiency can be improved somewhat. I think the biggest gains will be made in the batteries, but that is likely decades away. Sure there are all sorts of advancements being made now BUT they're only practical in a lab at small scales, no one has a clue as to how to mass produce them for cheap(er) yet.

At some point an electric powered or assisted car will be great and affordable, but until then lets give the technology some more time to bake in the proverbial R&D oven. Until then we can more cheaply and easily squeeze efficiancy out of gas/diesel motors and improve aerodynamics to improve MPG. And where population density is high enough for it to make sense mass transit can be installed too which is the most sensible thing to do both from a cost and environmental stand point.
 
Energy density...do you understand it? The fact is gas/oil is fucking awesome. It is super dense, stable, easily transportable, needs minimum processing,..and with a drill it comes out of the ground. No other energy source on the planet can come close to that for the average consumer. The next thing will probably be natural gas IMO. Batteries are cool for emissions...but suck on all other fronts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
 
I want to add to my post above that it's completely absurd to make the Volt's failure an issue of government. The business decision behind the Volt was that the American auto makers got completely burned when it came to hybrids so they became overly hopeful about new EVs because they didn't want to miss the boat again. The other American companies, along with Toyota and Honda, realized it was too soon given the current technology, but GM and Nissan trekked ahead with the hope of being the trendsetter.

The bailout and CAFE standards have nothing to do with it. It was just executives overcompensating for getting beat the last time. And quite frankly, in the grand scheme of the auto industry, this happens all the time. There was certainly more hype behind it than normal lines, but every maker has flops.
 
Starcrossed said:
Goodness forbid that Americans begin to rely upon public transportation system and build up the transportation infrastructure of our country so that public bussing and trains become way better than their current state.
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Mass public bussing could be expanded greatly in the US since it makes use of already existing road infrastructure but mass transit train systems will only make sense in a few areas in the US due to the widely spread population and the high cost associated with actually building such a train system.

The main problem with public bussing is that even if it were expanded greatly the combination of required driving distance and frequent necessary stops would mean that transit time would be hours even to go moderate distances. Which BTW is already the case most of the time. No one wants to put up with that so mass public bussing will go nowhere unless circumstances force people to abandon personal car ownership. Unfortunately such circumstances are likely to be fairly awful to say the least (ie. gas goes up to and stays at $8/gal) and so will necessitate some sort of crisis to occur. Ideally of course you'd want your infrastructure to planned out before something like that occurs, or at least that is the way I'd look at it, but then I'm not in charge of anything like that...

Now you could argue that people in the US should just abandon the whole suburban/rural areas except where farming is necessary and live in highly dense cities a la Europe or Japan. The problem is that this is far more expensive then most can afford. After all most people in the US already own a home or at least have a mortgage to pay off and they'd have to sell first before they could buy elsewhere...but would buy in an area soon to be abandoned? They'd have no buyers at all. They're stuck in that location. Something else to consider is they'd have to find work after they moved, but work is very very hard to come by right now in the US, much less decent paying work.

tl&dr: its not very reasonable to say, "well just get some cheap mass public transit like exists in the EU or anywhere else really your 'murican dolts"
 
Starcrossed said:
Goodness forbid that Americans begin to rely upon public transportation system and build up the transportation infrastructure of our country so that public bussing and trains become way better than their current state.
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And how much money are you going to pour down that particular gopher hole? Public transportation is an institution which largely, at least in the US, constantly requires subsidies from those who don't use it just to break even.

Jaerb4 said:
I want to add to my post above that it's completely absurd to make the Volt's failure an issue of government. The business decision behind the Volt was that the American auto makers got completely burned when it came to hybrids so they became overly hopeful about new EVs because they didn't want to miss the boat again. The other American companies, along with Toyota and Honda, realized it was too soon given the current technology, but GM and Nissan trekked ahead with the hope of being the trendsetter.

The bailout and CAFE standards have nothing to do with it. It was just executives overcompensating for getting beat the last time. And quite frankly, in the grand scheme of the auto industry, this happens all the time. There was certainly more hype behind it than normal lines, but every maker has flops.
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You have a point here--GM had the Volt slated for production well before the housing crash and the bailout. But given the (political) capital President Obama has invested in the Volt, it is not surprising to see him cheerleading and pulling strings in order to boost its sales.
 
True, but one of the primary functions of all presidents, Republican and Democrat and (never) Independent, is to be a cheerleader. :p

I think like other people have said here, it's a bit of a shame that the Volt gets all the attention because the Cruze Eco is a much better, successful and more important car. Only our worst seem to get all the press.
 
Starcrossed said:
Americans, for some odd reason, care so little about being efficient.
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Come on now, why are you beating up on that strawman?

The issue most people have with all this high efficient/low pollution stuff is that its really expensive and will remain so for a long time. Meanwhile, as you already know of course because you saw my earlier post about the economic situation here in the US, people in general in the US are very strapped for cash.

People can't buy what they can't afford, there isn't some ideological issue concerning efficiency or whatever you're thinking.
 
gathagan said:
They seem to think that they should be able to just plug in and charge their car at work, or while shopping, without consideration of the fact that their employer or the merchant is not interested in underwriting the cost of "fueling" their car.
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Pass the costs onto the city.
 
gathagan said:
No matter what form it takes, using electricity as a motive force will alway require some sort of energy conversion and storage that far outweigh any similar considerations when dealing with a chemically-based motive force.
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what? electric motors are easier to build, more efficient, smaller, etc...

Whether the source of that electricity is oil, solar or mechanical, there is simply no way to store electricity with an efficiency that in any way approaches that of a chemical fuel.
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The combustion engine is so inefficient, why would it matter that storing the fuel is efficient?
 
mesyn191 said:
Come on now, why are you beating up on that strawman?

The issue most people have with all this high efficient/low pollution stuff is that its really expensive and will remain so for a long time. Meanwhile, as you already know of course because you saw my earlier post about the economic situation here in the US, people in general in the US are very strapped for cash.

People can't buy what they can't afford, there isn't some ideological issue concerning efficiency or whatever you're thinking.
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There are plenty of low-cost ways to be efficient. In fact, the efficiency of which I speak is not only fuel efficiency, but also efficiency with money.
 
Cheetoz said:
what? electric motors are easier to build, more efficient, smaller, etc...
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He is talking about the electricity generation/storage efficiency, not the efficiency of an electric motor vs a gas/diesel motor.

Cheetoz said:
The combustion engine is so inefficient, why would it matter that storing the fuel is efficient?
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Gas can be easily stored and pumped in a simple metal tank with very little effort or expense. Electric storage requires heavy and expensive batteries that have around a 20% (going by wiki) efficiency penalty when charging up. That will obviously change depending on the battery but generally the faster you want to charge a battery the more energy gets wasted.

Ideally you could avoid this problem with a super capacitor "battery" but they're even more unlikely to be viable for car transportation use.
 
Starcrossed said:
There are plenty of low-cost ways to be efficient.
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Sure but building a new mass transit train or bus system isn't one of them.

This sounds an awful lot like goal post shifting. Why don't you try to address some of the points I brought up earlier if you're serious about this issue?
 
mesyn191 said:
Sure but building a new mass transit train or bus system isn't one of them.


This sounds an awful lot like goal post shifting. Why don't you try to address some of the points I brought up earlier if you're serious about this issue?
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How about using the bus systems that already exist?
 
Starcrossed said:
How about using the bus systems that already exist?
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Its too small or even nonexistent in many US cities. I'm not kidding, some of them don't even have buses.

The government would probably have to give the states hundreds of billions of dollars just to set up an OK mass bus transit system, and then those buses would have to actually get used close to capacity in order to remain viable otherwise the states/cities would go bankrupt trying to keep them running. Raising taxes is a death sentence for most politicians right now BTW too.
 
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