GM Announces Use of Carbon Fiber in Future Cars

CommanderFrank

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
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General Motors becomes the second car manufactured to turn to carbon fiber technology in high-volume automotive production. The use of carbon fiber fabrication has historically been the exclusive domain of the custom hand-made auto makers. GM will be entering into an agreement with Japan’s Teijin Limited to build a development center in the US for its carbon fiber technology in 2012.

BMW said that it will make extensive use of carbon fiber in its 2014 i3 electric car and opened a carbon fiber factory in Moses Lake, Washington in September 2011.
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The race is on to meet federal emission guidelines that keep increasing "fleet efficiency", the days are getting shorter for when they could make a bunch of somewhat efficient cars and then sell their gas guzzling SUVs and squeak by.
 
You basically need to make the damn cars out of plastic or carbon fiber when you load in 48 tonnes of gadgets and safety equipment.
 
Astronomica said:
You basically need to make the damn cars out of plastic or carbon fiber when you load in 48 tonnes of gadgets and safety equipment.
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I shake my head when I see all the posts on car forums that compare cars not, on engines, transmissions or, performance but, on electronics. :eek:
 
Meanwhile, the price of a decent new car keeps going up and up. Though a decent new car is much better than a very nice new car used to be.
 
I'll be impressed when they start manufacturing cars using carbon nanotube technology.
 
About damn time. There's no reason today's economy cars can't even get better MPG than economy cars of 20-25 years ago. Hell, hybrids are just about the only vehicles that match or beat the fuel efficiency of the older econo-boxes.

The next step is to vastly increase diesel car production which would be able to give us 45-65 MPG.
 
sfsuphysics said:
The race is on to meet federal emission guidelines that keep increasing "fleet efficiency", the days are getting shorter for when they could make a bunch of somewhat efficient cars and then sell their gas guzzling SUVs and squeak by.
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Let me guess...you drive a prius. :rolleyes:
 
about time. There have been methods of mass manufacturing cars out of carbon fiber, cheaply, for almost a decade.
 
I wouldn't be so excited about this. For a while there was a craze in motorcycle safety gear to cover joints in carbon fiber, until people noticed that it would shatter under impact and make extremely sharp pieces.
 
A few years ago. I head of a crazy idea for plastic engine blocks, with metal cylinder sleeves. Probably on the impractical side, but could be made to work somehow.
 
Aluisious said:
I wouldn't be so excited about this. For a while there was a craze in motorcycle safety gear to cover joints in carbon fiber, until people noticed that it would shatter under impact and make extremely sharp pieces.
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yeah but the big picture is for the auto manufacturers and their ability to make more parts. Look at bumpers, they used to be metal, or in the econo cars some hard rubbery substance. You bump someone and you dent, you can live with the dent, possibly bang it out, or get a new bumper. Now bumpers are essentially a plastic shell and serve no purpose as a "bumper" anymore, you get into an accident, they crack, and are really unusable and potentially hazardous if you don't replace them, and they have been around for a long time as the standard in bumpers for all sorts of cars.
 
Using carbon fiber instead of metals creates a recycling problem. Decommissioned Burt Rutan's Starship airframes sat in the desert waiting to be buried in a landfill, or burned.
 
EngrChris said:
Using carbon fiber instead of metals creates a recycling problem. Decommissioned Burt Rutan's Starship airframes sat in the desert waiting to be buried in a landfill, or burned.
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That was my first thought. While carbon fiber is cool, and saving weight should help with mpgs (and performance), what happens to a damaged carbon fiber part, other than just throwing it away.
 
sfsuphysics said:
yeah but the big picture is for the auto manufacturers and their ability to make more parts. Look at bumpers, they used to be metal, or in the econo cars some hard rubbery substance. You bump someone and you dent, you can live with the dent, possibly bang it out, or get a new bumper. Now bumpers are essentially a plastic shell and serve no purpose as a "bumper" anymore, you get into an accident, they crack, and are really unusable and potentially hazardous if you don't replace them, and they have been around for a long time as the standard in bumpers for all sorts of cars.
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You're telling me. I backed into a van with a distended metal bumper (this thing was sticking out 9 inches from the back doors and he parked right behind me, so I couldn't judge where his bumper was looking out my rear window). I've been driving around with a bondo'd "bumper cover" for a couple years now since if I bought another one of these stupid things, something else would just happen.

It's pretty obscene that they use such pathetic materials now.
 
EngrChris said:
A few years ago. I head of a crazy idea for plastic engine blocks, with metal cylinder sleeves. Probably on the impractical side, but could be made to work somehow.
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I don't see how anyone could get around the heat problem with any plastic that cost less than aluminum.
 
What happens to carbon fiber when the car crashes and burns? Can't be too pretty compared to metal.

As for recycling, I believe Boeing is working hard on it, as much of the 787 is made of composites.
 
DejaWiz said:
About damn time. There's no reason today's economy cars can't even get better MPG than economy cars of 20-25 years ago. Hell, hybrids are just about the only vehicles that match or beat the fuel efficiency of the older econo-boxes.

The next step is to vastly increase diesel car production which would be able to give us 45-65 MPG.
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That's the problem with cars for the past 20-25 years. They're homogenized. Nothing that really improved. The only difference is that modern cars tend to get more things that weren't commonly available. Such as DOHC or Valve timing Electronic Control, which for the most part makes little difference anyway. Most of the new tech allows us to have fast cars when we need it, but fuel efficient when we don't.

The problem is the weight. Modern cars are getting heavier to meet safety standards. There was a time when cars weigh ~2 tons, and make extensive use of fiber glass, like Saturn did.

Now the new engines are getting direct injection, which is great until the engine builds up deposits in the intake. Which from what I hear can quickly happen, and cause worse MPG and worse HP.

I'd be very in favor of carbon fiber, if done right. Some reason I'm going to see the interior with it more then the exterior. I just know it.
 
Emmisions are also preventing cars from getting better fuel economy. The lean burn cars are long gone because the created lots of NOx and the catalytic converter needs fuel to work. Hook an A/F gauge to your car and watch it go lean, rich, lean, rich as your cruise on the highway.
 
Maybe this is what it will take for the prices of carbon fiber to drop. I can't wait for the day you can walk into Lowe's or Home Depot and pick up a couple pounds of carbon fiber.

Pylon said:
What happens to carbon fiber when the car crashes and burns? Can't be too pretty compared to metal.

As for recycling, I believe Boeing is working hard on it, as much of the 787 is made of composites.
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Actually, I don't think carbon fiber burns too easily. Race cars use it (in part) for brakes, and those don't catch fire. They glow like mofos though! I think for a while, fully carbon brakes were used, but they held heat so well it caused problems with tires getting too hot. Not sure if I remember that part accurately, and I'm too lazy to research.
 
Aluisious said:
It'll be interesting to see what happens during crash testing.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUPq760LC00

You would actually be surprised. Carbon fiber honeycomb can be made into a great crash safety device. I wouldn't be concerned about CF holding up in a crash...if designed properly with engineered crumple zones (which they can do expertly with CF honeycomb), then it would be just like any other car.
Now the rub is CF can't really be repaired, so minor fender benders people could have historically just "buffed out", would be service ending accidents for CF parts. That said, this would drive down the cost of such items...making replacement not such a terrible experience (still would be more costly then steel parts, but not as bad as todays CF prices).
 
EngrChris said:
A few years ago. I head of a crazy idea for plastic engine blocks, with metal cylinder sleeves. Probably on the impractical side, but could be made to work somehow.
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Not so crazy, they are still moving forward with different ideas: http://blog.caranddriver.com/is-thi...tti-holtzberg-and-his-composite-engine-block/
The use of CF in cars is actually very safe for crash testing, many of your upper end cars use CF tubs or other parts and do very well in crashes (at high speeds), but the disposal of CF is still a question/concern we need to solve.
 
Good to see GM is finally pushing new ideas in their designs instead of paying another company to borrow theirs. Not that I'm expecting all these ideas to work out, but at least they are trying. It is quite difficult to compare new cars to old because of new emission standards, mpg standards, and safety standards that did not exist back then.
 
wtiger said:
Why don't you ask F1. They've been using CF for quite a long time.
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Exactly. I'm surprise most people are still not aware of what benefits carbon fiber could bring in terms of safety.

Carbon fiber has been protecting Formula 1 drivers for many years now, even long before the last 2 death in Formula one in 1994. Those last 2 accidents were related to head movement and broken wheel/suspension parts impacting Senna's head. Since then, drivers had survived many high speed crashes.

Here's some information on the crash test a modern F1 car undergoes and the kind of load they need to be able to sustain during a crash.
http://www.f1scarlet.com/safety_measuresinf1.html
 
Astronomica said:
You basically need to make the damn cars out of plastic or carbon fiber when you load in 48 tonnes of gadgets and safety equipment.
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Pretty much. Now there are cars that parallel park themselves. I'm concerned that this isn't making us better drivers, only lazier ones. There are enough people who can't even regularly park correctly, let alone parallel park.

Car enthusiasts also dislike this trend. Things like electronic stability control really take the fun out of driving a car. People have lampooned the newer Evos for being too "boring" to drive unless you turn all the electronic goodies off. Personally I'd prefer a lightweight no-frills N/A car over any 400whp turbocharged monster that's quick but boring.
 
SLiGuy said:
Pretty much. Now there are cars that parallel park themselves. I'm concerned that this isn't making us better drivers, only lazier ones. There are enough people who can't even regularly park correctly, let alone parallel park.

Car enthusiasts also dislike this trend. Things like electronic stability control really take the fun out of driving a car. People have lampooned the newer Evos for being too "boring" to drive unless you turn all the electronic goodies off. Personally I'd prefer a lightweight no-frills N/A car over any 400whp turbocharged monster that's quick but boring.
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Car enthusiasts may dislike this trend (I am one of them) but the reality is it is needed. Either a law needs to be passed making getting a drivers license way more restrictive (Never gonna happen) or cars need to do more. Now as an enthusiast, I at least want the option to quickly turn everything off. However I recognize that the average driver is like the average computer user. If they car/computer doesn't do it for them, they are going to screw it up and in the case of a car likely screw someone elses up. I like the Cars that self parallel park because frankly most people can't do this and I am tired of getting scratches and dents in my car that I have a custom paint job on because they can't do it and are too stupid to not try.

Frankly a Large percentage of the drivers on the road have no business having a license. I would love it if we could move to a state of technology where all cars drive themselves and have special lanes and if you want to drive yourself you have to pass a rigorous driving test that proves you know what you are doing. That would allow those of us who know how to drive to really enjoy our cars while all the idiots stay out of the way.
 
This is good. It seems like just recently i was watching a documentary about carbon fiber and how it was currently about 75% too expensive for car manufacturer's to use but there was technology about ot come out that would cut production of carbon fiber by over 50%. Guess that came to fruition.
 
Meh can't edit. The one thing that was EXTREMELY promising to lowering production costs of carbon fiber materials? A resin that can be heated up and reshaped if it was molded improperly or got damage to the finish.
 
i shake my head every time i think of GM trying to keep up with every other car company out there in terms of overall build quality and performance. i could make a 10 list of all the shit cars and "good things" about their cars but id rather not. sorry steve, i think you have a GM branded muscle car? but you dont have it for the same reasons as new cars portray themselves to people...
 
Silverghost said:
Meanwhile, the price of a decent new car keeps going up and up. Though a decent new car is much better than a very nice new car used to be.
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Yes, soon you will have an auto mortgage for 15 years to go along with your home mortgage of 30 years. Woot!!
 
MajorDomo said:
General Motors becomes the second car manufactured to turn to carbon fiber technology in high-volume automotive production. The use of carbon fiber fabrication has historically been the exclusive domain of the custom hand-made auto makers. GM will be entering into an agreement with Japan’s Teijin Limited to build a development center in the US for its carbon fiber technology in 2012.
Click to expand...


I won't expect to see it on anything other than a Corvette for a couple of years, before it get's to the mainstream everyday cars.
 
I love carbon fiber, but to use it to save weight in modern, bloated production cars seems kind of incongruous. Cars have been getting bigger and bigger yearly, with a myriad of unnecessary luxury features (everything motorized, automatic, or heated)... and to keep up with the increasing mass of cars on the road, safety regulations have to grow as well, again contributing to the car-fattening. It would be much easier just to save weight by breaking this trend. I find it so ridiculous when I see a 4000lb SUV with 20" rims driving along the road with a single 150lb person inside. What are they planning on doing with carbon fiber? Giving us a 3500lb SUV with 20" rims?

Another thing to keep in mind is that the manufacture of carbon fiber itself takes a huge amount of energy which might offset some of the efficiency gains of a lighter-weight structure and as others have mentioned, there's also the disposal/recycling problem to deal with as well.
 
Silverghost said:
...Hook an A/F gauge to your car and watch it go lean, rich, lean, rich as your cruise on the highway.
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Thats actually the result of narrowband oxygen sensors, which operates like a switch and will only tell you if its lean or rich and not between. The back and forth motion is just the ECU constantly adjusting itself, which is fine for most cars.

What you want performacne tuning is a wideband o2 sensor which tell you the ratio, but those are expensive and don't last very long. I've ony seen them stock on a few Japanese and German cars, not yet on any American car but they probably have it somewhere.
 
Also, why not aluminum? It's cheaper than CFRP and lighter than steel. Strength might be an issue though.
 
AeonF1 said:
Thats actually the result of narrowband oxygen sensors, which operates like a switch and will only tell you if its lean or rich and not between. The back and forth motion is just the ECU constantly adjusting itself, which is fine for most cars.

What you want performacne tuning is a wideband o2 sensor which tell you the ratio, but those are expensive and don't last very long. I've ony seen them stock on a few Japanese and German cars, not yet on any American car but they probably have it somewhere.
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It's the result of the catalytic converter having to do two conflicting jobs. One that requires less oxygen (NOx reduction) and one that requires more oxygen (HC + CO oxidation). A narrow-band sensor was just the cheapest way to get the job done.
 
So this is the result of our taxpayer bailout.. not bad.. at least its going to developing next gen tech instead of it being squandered.. as is usually the case.
 
Potato said:
I love carbon fiber, but to use it to save weight in modern, bloated production cars seems kind of incongruous. Cars have been getting bigger and bigger yearly, with a myriad of unnecessary luxury features (everything motorized, automatic, or heated)... and to keep up with the increasing mass of cars on the road, safety regulations have to grow as well, again contributing to the car-fattening. It would be much easier just to save weight by breaking this trend. I find it so ridiculous when I see a 4000lb SUV with 20" rims driving along the road with a single 150lb person inside. What are they planning on doing with carbon fiber? Giving us a 3500lb SUV with 20" rims?

Another thing to keep in mind is that the manufacture of carbon fiber itself takes a huge amount of energy which might offset some of the efficiency gains of a lighter-weight structure and as others have mentioned, there's also the disposal/recycling problem to deal with as well.
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My 3700 pound SUV with 18 inch rims (standard) gets 24 MPG highway. Which doesnt sound wonderful, except considering the size it's pretty good really.

Trick is, I actually drive the speed limit. You can thank the CHP and their tickets for that.
 
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