General SFF Rantings & Ramblings…

[Boil]

First off; love, Love, LOVE all of the 'boutique' SFF chassis' in this forum!

Dan A4-SFX, KI Cerberus, Project mATX, NCASE M1, etc. …

But I have 'special needs'; meaning, why can there not be computer equipment configured the way I envision?!?

Rant - Why, oh WHY! did EKWB decide to forgo the PCH portion of their mono block for the Asus ROG Maximus VIII Impact mITX motherboard? The mono block designed for the previous two version of the Maximus /X/ Impact had the PCH covered & I liked that!

Rant - Why does EKWB make a specific water block for the AIC version of the Intel 750-series SSD, but NOT make one for the 2.5" version of the same? I want a total compute water cooling solution, but in the mini ITX format!

Rambling - I love the Osmi chassis, but I lament its sudden price hike. It would make an almost perfect chassis for a Hackintosh build. Yes, I am a diehard Apple user from before the Macintosh itself was an actual product. Let us NOT get side-tracked into OS X vs. Windows vs. Linux vs. Whatever here… BUT…! I do not like the 'wasted' space that is set aside for the ODD & 2.5" SSD. I would go for either a M.2-based NVMe Samsung 950 Pro or the Intel 2.5" NVMe SSD mounted in the 3.5" drive position (depending on motherboard used) for the system drive in this chassis. So, wasted space…

I also really like the Dune Case chassis, even though I feel it is a little 'fat' compared to the actual Mac Pro chassis, but I do understand that needed to be done to shoehorn the mITX board in there. The custom I/O panel is a HUGE selling point for me; no garish colors on the various I/O ports, no sideways or upside-down labels on said ports. Very little excess ports one might never use.

But what I would REALLY like to see is the smallest form factor I could get for a fully water-cooled compute system (CPU/VRM/PCH/RAM/SSD/GPU) in as small of a package as possible! I would not be overclocking, so extreme performance water-cooling would not be needed, but sufficient water-cooling to keep temps as low as possible would be wanted, if that makes any sense. I also feel that separate sub-systems would allow each sub-system to better control itself for optimal cooling of said sub-system. I would have (in the case of a hypothetical mITX-based system) CPU/VRM/PCH as one sub-system, GPU as a second sub-system, with the RAM & SSD being the final sub-system. Without overclocking or using VERY power hungry components, I could see three 140mm Hardware Labs radiators (they make some pretty hefty claims towards the amount of 'heat wattage' each of their radiators can handle, so each of my sub-systems should be no issue at all) with EKWB Predator-style reservoir/pump 'end-cap' units attached for the actual cooling component of each sub-system.

THOUGHTS…?!?

Stepping down off of my soapbox and adjusting my tinfoil bowler hat now… ;^p

 

[Necere]

But what I would REALLY like to see is the smallest form factor I could get for a fully water-cooled compute system (CPU/VRM/PCH/RAM/SSD/GPU) in as small of a package as possible! I would not be overclocking, so extreme performance water-cooling would not be needed, but sufficient water-cooling to keep temps as low as possible would be wanted, if that makes any sense. I also feel that separate sub-systems would allow each sub-system to better control itself for optimal cooling of said sub-system. I would have (in the case of a hypothetical mITX-based system) CPU/VRM/PCH as one sub-system, GPU as a second sub-system, with the RAM & SSD being the final sub-system. Without overclocking or using VERY power hungry components, I could see three 140mm Hardware Labs radiators (they make some pretty hefty claims towards the amount of 'heat wattage' each of their radiators can handle, so each of my sub-systems should be no issue at all) with EKWB Predator-style reservoir/pump 'end-cap' units attached for the actual cooling component of each sub-system.

Separate loops is generally a waste of both radiator capacity (since one loop will invariably be underutilized), and space in general. The only time it really makes sense is if you want to really maximize cooling for a specific component (e.g., CPU), and are less concerned about getting the lowest temps for the rest. In general, water cooling RAM is totally pointless - it simply doesn't generate significant enough amounts of heat to benefit.

Three 140mm rads is not going to result in a particularly small system no matter how you cut it (and especially so with separate integrated pumps/reservoirs). Just guesstimating, even if you arranged things as efficiently as possible, it would still end up near 20L.

 

[Boil]

Separate loops is generally a waste of both radiator capacity (since one loop will invariably be underutilized), and space in general. The only time it really makes sense is if you want to really maximize cooling for a specific component (e.g., CPU), and are less concerned about getting the lowest temps for the rest. In general, water cooling RAM is totally pointless - it simply doesn't generate significant enough amounts of heat to benefit.

Three 140mm rads is not going to result in a particularly small system no matter how you cut it (and especially so with separate integrated pumps/reservoirs). Just guesstimating, even if you arranged things as efficiently as possible, it would still end up near 20L.

Yeah, I really do realize there is no such thing as a true SFF/fully water-cooled build; it is an oxymoron… But a man can dream, can he not…?!?

In reality world, I have wondered about a unit similar to the Osmi chassis, just taller & slightly larger in depth/width, with a single 180mm Hardware Labs radiator up top for the water cooling loop (again, going off of their hearty claims for heat/wattage dispersion). For this, I would only cool the CPU/VRM (Asus M8Impact mITX MB w/EKWB mono block) & the GPU (future Pascal-based GPU w/mITX form factor). With the larger footprint caused by the increased depth/width dimensions due to the 180mm radiator, I would think there would be room at the bottom of the chassis for a 80/90/92mm fan to feed air upwards as well. The MB would have to be re-oriented so the GPU would not be blocking most of the bottom of the chassis. This, in turn, would make the overall unit taller, because the I/O on both the MB & GPU would be facing downwards, so space would be needed to allow for connectors. This would be like the I/O orientation of the Power Mac G4 Cube … The 2.5" Intel 750-series SSD & the RAM would not be water-cooled; nor, thanks to EKWBs decision for the latest iteration of their Maximus * Impact mono block, would the south bridge chip be water-cooled…

But even this would be larger than I would want for a true SFF system… Why can we not have some sort of alien technology for this to dump the heat into a parallel universe or alternate reality or some such…?!?

Maybe I will just bit the bullet in respect to overall size & get a Case Labs Nova XM2 chassis & build that up into a water-cooled unit one day. But for now, I will stick with air-cooling & go with the Dune Case if it makes it to production (still unsure about how Apple's legal ninjas will handle that case, pun intended), or really bit the bullet & pony up for the (now) overpriced Osmi chassis…

Or! Just make my own wall-mount style chassis, but specifically for miniITX, with the components arranged alongside a 120.3 radiator with a tall cool drink of water-cooling reservoir/pump combo betwixt the two sections. That way, everything is out of the way, but I can look at the shiny bits arrayed in all their glory…!

 

[Necere]

In reality world, I have wondered about a unit similar to the Osmi chassis, just taller & slightly larger in depth/width, with a single 180mm Hardware Labs radiator up top for the water cooling loop (again, going off of their hearty claims for heat/wattage dispersion).

I don't believe HWLabs makes a 180mm rad, their largest single fan rads are 140mm AFAIK. EK, Alphacool and Magicool are the ones I know of.

Regarding radiator cooling capacity, read this post I made the other day about why those ratings don't really mean anything.

For this, I would only cool the CPU/VRM (Asus M8Impact mITX MB w/EKWB mono block) & the GPU (future Pascal-based GPU w/mITX form factor). With the larger footprint caused by the increased depth/width dimensions due to the 180mm radiator, I would think there would be room at the bottom of the chassis for a 80/90/92mm fan to feed air upwards as well. The MB would have to be re-oriented so the GPU would not be blocking most of the bottom of the chassis. This, in turn, would make the overall unit taller, because the I/O on both the MB & GPU would be facing downwards, so space would be needed to allow for connectors. This would be like the I/O orientation of the Power Mac G4 Cube …

So, mocking this up in my head using the 180mm EK rad as a starting point (218 x 180 x 35mm), I come up with realistic-ish dimensions of around 310 x 195 x 230mm (H x W x D), or about 14L. Not tiny, for sure, but definitely still something you could tuck away somewhere. I'm not sure where'd you could fit an 80 or 92mm fan though. For me personally, I'd want dust filtering, so I'd filter the 180mm fan and set it to intake, and just have that as the sole system fan. Yes, it means top-to-bottom airflow, but with the big gap at the bottom for cables (~75mm), there'd be plenty of room for exhaust.

You didn't mention the PSU, but I assume you'd have an SFX over the CPU, as in the Omni. It's really about the only way to fit an internal PSU in these dimensions.

But even this would be larger than I would want for a true SFF system… Why can we not have some sort of alien technology for this to dump the heat into a parallel universe or alternate reality or some such…?!

That'd be nice... but then again, what would be left for us to do? No challenge in that

 

[Boil]

I don't believe HWLabs makes a 180mm rad, their largest single fan rads are 140mm AFAIK. EK, Alphacool and Magicool are the ones I know of.

Regarding radiator cooling capacity, read this post I made the other day about why those ratings don't really mean anything.

So, mocking this up in my head using the 180mm EK rad as a starting point (218 x 180 x 35mm), I come up with realistic-ish dimensions of around 310 x 195 x 230mm (H x W x D), or about 14L. Not tiny, for sure, but definitely still something you could tuck away somewhere. I'm not sure where'd you could fit an 80 or 92mm fan though. For me personally, I'd want dust filtering, so I'd filter the 180mm fan and set it to intake, and just have that as the sole system fan. Yes, it means top-to-bottom airflow, but with the big gap at the bottom for cables (~75mm), there'd be plenty of room for exhaust.

You didn't mention the PSU, but I assume you'd have an SFX over the CPU, as in the Omni. It's really about the only way to fit an internal PSU in these dimensions.

That'd be nice... but then again, what would be left for us to do? No challenge in that

You are correct, I had thought in the past of what type of heat/wattage dispersion would be available from the EK 180mm single radiator, and was hypothesizing based off of the claims made by HWL for their units (with the knowledge that they do not make a 180mm model).

I would hope the raised bottom could be less than your projected 75mm, I could swear the G4 Cube was about half that or so for its cable clearance? He says without bothering to look it up on the Internet, what a slacker…

The PSU would be a SFX unit, possibly the SFX-L forthcoming from Silverstone, if it actually is what it is purported to be, a quality 700w Platinum rated power supply with a quiet 120mm fan. Overkill for a single GPU system, but the easy running & efficiency it should give might be worthwhile? I would wonder about having the PSU exhaust firing downwards right next to the 92mm bottom intake fan though. But then there is also the forthcoming Corsair 600w SFX PSU. Not a Platinum rated unit, but supposed to be a quality unit with Japanese capacitors & a Gold rating? The draw is the quieter 92mm fan I think (compared to the 'noisy' 80mm fans in the Silverstone SFX PSUs)? The shorter SFX PSU would allow more room for cabling above it (assuming exhausting downwards).

I would see this more as an Osmi on steroids, still keeping the equal depth & width dimensions. At 230mm D x W, that should allow a 92mm fan firing up, with a 69mm perimeter all around for chassis & components. I would rather have the top 180mm fan set for exhaust, but I feel the 92mm intake down below & the 'chimney effect' will feed the 180mm radiator & fan just fine. My biggest thing was working out where to place a reservoir/pump combo (now leaning towards an EK D5 Revo 100 Glass) and an Intel 2.5" 750-series NVMe SSD. Yes, I would want to use the Asus Maximus 8 Impact and take advantage of the 'U.2' port.

So, MB & GPU I/O facing downwards. PSU exhausting downwards. Looking at the front of the 'cube', we would have MB on front wall, GPU on left wall, res/pump in rear left corner, PSU on back wall oriented towards the rear right corner & SSD on right wall.

Six internal cables (not including the three 4-pin PWM pump & fan leads). The U.2 (I know there is a specific alphanumeric designation for this cable, but again, slacker…) that comes with the SSD & four custom cables for the PSU (24-pin MB, 8-pin CPU, 8-pin GPU, super shorty SATA power & super shorty 4-pin Molex; maybe the SATA & Molex could be combined on one cable?). Four pieces of tubing for the water-cooling (res/pump > component, component > component, component > radiator & radiator > res/pump. I would want to work a fill port up top somehow & a drain port down below, so actually six pieces of tubing? Fill & drain ports for ease of maintenance? Fill port feeds to the top of the reservoir/pump combo & drain port feed from a splitter on the pump output?

With a fill port up top, might be feasible to do the power button & reset switch up top as well (smaller vandal switches?) and at least one USB for flash drives? These would share the same 'strip' of real estate on the top of the chassis, to one side of the radiator.

Cable & tubing management goals would be to keep the 'central chimney' as clear as possible, but I would want to use barbed fittings, tube clamps & ZMT tubing for more ease of maintenance?

External cables would (for me) be PSU, HDMI, ethernet, USB & headphones; so five external cables feeding from underneath the chassis.

And I also now realize we might very well have had almost this same exchange a good bit back over on the smallformfactor.net forums?

Maybe I should try to learn Protocase?

And now I have about 640 bucks of product in my EKWB shopping cart!

 

[Necere]

I would hope the raised bottom could be less than your projected 75mm, I could swear the G4 Cube was about half that or so for its cable clearance? He says without bothering to look it up on the Internet, what a slacker…

If you were just making this for yourself I'd say it's fine to go less than that, since you can use whatever lower profile cables you want. The G4 cube could get away with it because they could control what cables were used, and even have them custom made to spec. But as far as a commercial product that needs to support a variety of hardware, it would need enough room at least for a standard power cable. If you measure one where it exits the case, you'll see that it still needs 60mm or more, even with a fairly tight bend. You might think to just include a right angle cable, but that's not really practical if you intend to ship worldwide, since there are so many different plug standards. DVI cables are another big offender, and while they're not as common anymore, people do still use them. The vertical Silverstone cases have around 80mm for the cables, I believe.

The PSU would be a SFX unit, possibly the SFX-L forthcoming from Silverstone, if it actually is what it is purported to be, a quality 700w Platinum rated power supply with a quiet 120mm fan. Overkill for a single GPU system, but the easy running & efficiency it should give might be worthwhile? I would wonder about having the PSU exhaust firing downwards right next to the 92mm bottom intake fan though. But then there is also the forthcoming Corsair 600w SFX PSU. Not a Platinum rated unit, but supposed to be a quality unit with Japanese capacitors & a Gold rating? The draw is the quieter 92mm fan I think (compared to the 'noisy' 80mm fans in the Silverstone SFX PSUs)? The shorter SFX PSU would allow more room for cabling above it (assuming exhausting downwards).

I would see this more as an Osmi on steroids, still keeping the equal depth & width dimensions. At 230mm D x W, that should allow a 92mm fan firing up, with a 69mm perimeter all around for chassis & components. I would rather have the top 180mm fan set for exhaust, but I feel the 92mm intake down below & the 'chimney effect' will feed the 180mm radiator & fan just fine. My biggest thing was working out where to place a reservoir/pump combo (now leaning towards an EK D5 Revo 100 Glass) and an Intel 2.5" 750-series NVMe SSD. Yes, I would want to use the Asus Maximus 8 Impact and take advantage of the 'U.2' port.

So, MB & GPU I/O facing downwards. PSU exhausting downwards. Looking at the front of the 'cube', we would have MB on front wall, GPU on left wall, res/pump in rear left corner, PSU on back wall oriented towards the rear right corner & SSD on right wall.

Six internal cables (not including the three 4-pin PWM pump & fan leads). The U.2 (I know there is a specific alphanumeric designation for this cable, but again, slacker…) that comes with the SSD & four custom cables for the PSU (24-pin MB, 8-pin CPU, 8-pin GPU, super shorty SATA power & super shorty 4-pin Molex; maybe the SATA & Molex could be combined on one cable?). Four pieces of tubing for the water-cooling (res/pump > component, component > component, component > radiator & radiator > res/pump. I would want to work a fill port up top somehow & a drain port down below, so actually six pieces of tubing? Fill & drain ports for ease of maintenance? Fill port feeds to the top of the reservoir/pump combo & drain port feed from a splitter on the pump output?

Cable & tubing management goals would be to keep the 'central chimney' as clear as possible, a bunch of 90 degree fittings?

External cables would (for me) be PSU, HDMI, ethernet, USB & headphones; so five external cables feeding from underneath the chassis.

The "chimney effect" is mainly for passive systems, and any fan is going to easily overpower it. Here's a mockup based on your description (more or less):



Right in the middle is about the only space you could fit a pump/res (DDC with a short Koolance tube res, in this case). I think a 92mm fan is fairly pointless with the big 180mm at the top, but I've included it anyway. There is space for it between the PSU and motherboard with these dimensions (~230x230mm footprint).

And I also now realize we might very well have had almost this same exchange a good bit back over on the smallformfactor.net forums?

Maybe I should try to learn Protocase?

I'm registered there, but it doesn't look like I was in that conversation.

Protocase is probably worth learning if you want to get something made by them, but Sketchup is good for just brainstorming ideas. Plenty of free part models available for Sketchup, as well.

 

[Mackan]

Regarding the mono block for VIII Impact. If you look closely, there's a possibe obstructing capacitor close to the chipset that isn't there on the VII board. Could be the reason why they castrated the block. That wonky audio card could be a problem as well. Their VIII board was a step back in several ways, in my opinion. For the next round of boards, I hope EVGA takes the cost and redesigns their Stinger board to be a contender.

As for water cooling in small spaces. It's possible to cool a CPU and GPU with a single 120mm radiator, in for example a Sugo SG05/SG13, but the fan needs to be at 2500 rpm for a delta T of 10-15C, I think. In other words, a jet engine. Which I really dislike. One of the major points of water cooling is to keep the noise down, particularly for the GPU. A 240mm radiator is also not enough for low noise. So, difficult to do this in a SFF. If you care about noise, that is. I've found that many SFF builders don't care about noise or dust.

 

[Kaos_Drem]

Regarding your cooling complaint on the 750series ssd, in the complete absence of airflow the 2.5in 750series will still only get to around 55-60C, if you have even the slightest of airflow over it you will never see temps that high though. The reason why you can't get a waterblock for it though is because its actually very complex inside, there is a flexible pcb riser connector between the two boards internally.

 

[Boil]

If you were just making this for yourself I'd say it's fine to go less than that, since you can use whatever lower profile cables you want. The G4 cube could get away with it because they could control what cables were used, and even have them custom made to spec. But as far as a commercial product that needs to support a variety of hardware, it would need enough room at least for a standard power cable. If you measure one where it exits the case, you'll see that it still needs 60mm or more, even with a fairly tight bend. You might think to just include a right angle cable, but that's not really practical if you intend to ship worldwide, since there are so many different plug standards. DVI cables are another big offender, and while they're not as common anymore, people do still use them. The vertical Silverstone cases have around 80mm for the cables, I believe.

The "chimney effect" is mainly for passive systems, and any fan is going to easily overpower it. Here's a mockup based on your description (more or less):

Right in the middle is about the only space you could fit a pump/res (DDC with a short Koolance tube res, in this case). I think a 92mm fan is fairly pointless with the big 180mm at the top, but I've included it anyway. There is space for it between the PSU and motherboard with these dimensions (~230x230mm footprint).

I'm registered there, but it doesn't look like I was in that conversation.

Protocase is probably worth learning if you want to get something made by them, but Sketchup is good for just brainstorming ideas. Plenty of free part models available for Sketchup, as well.

All great comments! Especially towards not really needing the 92mm fan, deleting that might make placing a dust filter on there bottom easier. As for the thread on that other forum, I stand corrected, it was the gentleman from KI that was responding to my ramblings there…

Regarding the mono block for VIII Impact. If you look closely, there's a possibe obstructing capacitor close to the chipset that isn't there on the VII board. Could be the reason why they castrated the block. That wonky audio card could be a problem as well. Their VIII board was a step back in several ways, in my opinion. For the next round of boards, I hope EVGA takes the cost and redesigns their Stinger board to be a contender.

As for water cooling in small spaces. It's possible to cool a CPU and GPU with a single 120mm radiator, in for example a Sugo SG05/SG13, but the fan needs to be at 2500 rpm for a delta T of 10-15C, I think. In other words, a jet engine. Which I really dislike. One of the major points of water cooling is to keep the noise down, particularly for the GPU. A 240mm radiator is also not enough for low noise. So, difficult to do this in a SFF. If you care about noise, that is. I've found that many SFF builders don't care about noise or dust.

I do see the capacitor you are referring to when I actually look closer, thanks for pointing it out!

Regarding your cooling complaint on the 750series ssd, in the complete absence of airflow the 2.5in 750series will still only get to around 55-60C, if you have even the slightest of airflow over it you will never see temps that high though. The reason why you can't get a waterblock for it though is because its actually very complex inside, there is a flexible pcb riser connector between the two boards internally.

Good info on the temps for the 2.5" 750-series SSD, I would think with a 180mm fan exhausting upwards & drawing fresh air in from below, that would be enough airflow to keep the SSD cool enough to avoid any thermal throttling. Thanks!