Gaming VA panel owner experience

Discussion in 'Displays' started by SpongeBob, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. SpongeBob

    SpongeBob The Contraceptive Under the Sea

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    Is ghosting a non issue now with VA or are current VA’s up to par? I am looking for a new monitor and I’m still amazed TN is still so prevalent. Would like richer colors as I intend to have this monitor a long time. Maybe there are TN exceptions.

    I hated my Dell 27” G-sync. Brighter doesn’t mean great color. Now I’m looking for a 24” 144hz or higher 1080p monitor.
     
  2. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    Ghosting is still an issue. The best of TN is probably going to give the least ghosting. But I'm sure there are some lousy TN monitors in terms of lag and ghosting. So you still have to be careful of what you buy.
     
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  3. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    My Samsung TV is VA (Q7F) and the ghosting is much better than the older model.

    I used to have a KU6300 and the ghosting/trailing was pretty bad. I mean, I kept the TV, it was still acceptable quality but right on the verge.

    Not sure what Samsung did, but the 2018 model is definitely improved a lot (though still not TN quality).

    It depends what you are looking for really. Some people are more sensitive to different qualities, but I think there are lots of great options.

    I've been digging the ultrawide I'm using now (LG 34" 1080p IPS). I feel like VA has better colors, but IPS is still pretty good.

    TN is also not a horrible choice when you are talking about high refresh and want to avoid ghosting.
     
  4. jbltecnicspro

    jbltecnicspro [H]ardness Supreme

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    I use a CRT daily so you could argue that I have the best display for motion clarity. I also had a Samsung CFG73 and if it wasn't for the fact that I couldn't adjust the backlight intensity in the ULMB mode, I'd have kept it. It was a good display. I say go for it. There was blurring if I looked for it but other than when I was actively seeking it out, I didn't notice it. And even when I did notice it, it wasn't bad at all. So there's my two cents.

    EDIT: Also wanted to add that even CRT's have motion clarity issues. In games where there's lots of contrast (Doom 3, for example, with bright objects across a dark background) you can see the phosphor trail too. So I guess no technology is really perfect. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  5. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    Great price on the Samsung too.
     
  6. sethk

    sethk [H]ard|Gawd

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    Still an issue. Less noticeable on some displays. I run a Z9F @120 hz with motion blanking / strobing, which has to be close to best case for blur reduction on a VA panel, and it's still there on some game types (Dead cells for example). Not noticeable in "realistic" FPS games etc.
     
  7. xSneak

    xSneak Limp Gawd

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    I thought it was annoying on an acer z35p when playing pubg. Any dark objects would cause problems.
     
  8. MacLeod

    MacLeod [H]ardness Supreme

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    Depends on how good your eyes are. I'm using a HP Pavillion 32" @1440 running FreeSync with a 70 Hz refresh rate. My eyes ain't the best and I don't really notice any ghosting. If I specifically look for it I can see if but it's not anything I notice while gaming and I'm coming from a 144 Hz, 1ms TN 27" gaming panel.

    The huge upgrade in picture quality is worth the tradeoff to me. But if you've got really good eyes then you might notice it a lot more.
     
  9. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    With response time set to 'faster' (which isn't that fast...it's VA) I see ghosting of text even when just scrolling web pages on an LG 32GK650F.

    I think VA isn't a good choice for those who play fast pace games. So you still very much have to weigh the cons of each panel type according to the priorities of your use cases.
     
  10. MistaSparkul

    MistaSparkul Gawd

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    VA was never the optimal choice for fast pace games. It's meant for eye candy single player games, TN has always been your go to option if you wanted the best performance for something very fast paced. I had the LG32GK850G Gsync version and while it was pretty good when compared to other VA monitors, it still had black smearing.
     
  11. jbltecnicspro

    jbltecnicspro [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just went back to my Samsung. I'm probably going to sell my CRT to some retro enthusiast. Like I said in my previous post, it's not as good as my CRT, but it's close enough. Decent contrast, and it doesn't poop itself when playing games.
     
  12. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    I have still being doing some AB'ing between 60 hz and 120 hz for gaming on an LG 32GK650F. Motion clarity isn't greatly improved in my opinion at the higher refresh rate. I do notice the higher refresh rate, but overall my visual experience in gaming isn't improved enough to prefer the higher refresh rate.
     
  13. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    You may need a better TV.
    My Samsung Q9FN is simply awesome doing 1440p @120Hz.
    I was struggling to win a race in Project Cars 2 without reducing the difficulty and it remained undefeated for 1/2 a year ish on a very low lag 1080p/60hz pj.
    When I got this TV and tried 1440/120 for the first time I immediately beat it.
    I tried it again @60Hz on the same TV and couldnt win, 120Hz allows a split second faster decisions to be made.
    Love this TV for that and a ton of other reasons, awesome TV and PC + gaming display.
    The last gaming display we knew Kyle was using is this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  14. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    I don't really watch tv, and I don't really play comptetitive games. And with VA, I think there is likely less benefit to higher refresh rate any way in comparison to TN. Any way, a larger display wouldn't be a good fit for me any way. I feel that 32" is already verging on the too big side for desktop general use.
     
  15. Budzman

    Budzman [H]ard|Gawd

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    I bought a Asus ROG Strix XG32VQ and hated it so much. Terrible ghosting in dark environments. Sold it after a couple months of use, just couldn't ignore the ghosting.

    Bought a MSI Optix MAG321CQR and the ghosting is very minimal and I don't really notice it unlike the Asus. however, the colors aren't as good as the Asus and the whites are uneven on the screen. The right side is cooler and the left is warmer. Only noticeable when browsing the web. It's really nice for gaming so still up in the air if i'm gonna return it or not.
     
  16. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    Relevant excerpts from http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/lg_32gk850g.htm#gaming
    =====================================================================

    "
    One thing to keep in mind also is whether the pixel response times are fast enough to keep up with the frame rate demands of the high refresh rate. To deliver 144Hz, a new frame is sent to the screen every 6.94ms, which means that response times need to be consistently under this to keep up. If they're not, then you end up with some added smearing on fast moving content. For the 165Hz overclocked refresh rate you need response times to be <6.06ms to keep up (1000 ms / 165 Hz = 6.06ms). On the 32GK850G the response times (even if we ignore the few slow black transitions for now) were not quite fast enough to keep up with 144Hz or 165Hz refresh rates, and you get a little added smearing in practice if you use the screen at those settings. We felt 120Hz (needing <8.33ms) was a better balance and provided the optimal experience.

    Above are some pursuit camera tests running the screen in the optimal 'Faster' response time mode, at both 120Hz and 165Hz. You can see the dark trailing evident at both refresh rates behind the moving UFO, particularly on a dark background where the black outline of the UFO is changing to a dark shade. It's on dark content where the black smearing becomes most noticeable. You can see that a little bit more smearing and blurring is visible at the max 165Hz refresh rate, and that's because the pixel response times have trouble keeping up with the frame rate of the screen. You start to get more noticeable smearing, especially with blacks. So despite the added refresh rate helping to reduce perceived motion blur in theory, the performance is being limited by the response times of the pixels themselves. We would recommend sticking with 120Hz for optimal performance, although 120 - 165Hz is still useable and doesn't look terrible. If you're using G-sync for instance and wanted to use the full range up to 144Hz or 165Hz, it is still very usable, and you may not be pushing frame rates that high regularly anyway."

    ------------------------

    "
    Having settled on the 'faster' response time mode in our earlier measurements and visual tests we carried out a more thorough set of measurements across a wider range of pixel transitions. The average G2G figure was measured at 8.3ms which was good for a VA panel. In fact it would have been even better at about 6.4ms G2G if we didn't have those few particularly slow changes from black > grey. As is common on most VA panels, there are some slow changes from black, which results in practice with some dark smearing on moving content. It's less noticeable at this maximum 'faster' response time setting but it's still there sadly. This mode has at least eliminated some of the slow middle G2G transitions you get in the 'fast' and 'normal' response time modes which is good news. In the best case the response time actually reached down to 2.8ms G2G which was impressive. The quoted 5ms figure is actually conservative from LG if you want to consider the best case measurement.
    "


    ------------------------------------------
    "
    We have provided a comparison of the LG 32GK850G against many other screens that we have tested. The screen performed better than most other VA technology displays listed here. With an average G2G of 8.3ms, it was faster than the recent competing Samsung C32HG70 model, which measured in at 13ms G2G average but also showed a lot more slow transitions from dark to light shades. There was less noticeable dark smearing as a result on the LG. It was a little better for gaming than the Asus ROG Strix XG35VQ overall as well, which struggled even more with transitions from black to dark grey, and also showed some high levels of overshoot in practice.

    Being a VA panel it still struggled with some of those darker transitions and so black smearing was still apparent on moving content in certain situations. We feel that the high refresh rate IPS panels such as the Asus ROG Swift PG279Q (5.0ms G2G average, 144Hz) and Dell Alienware AW3418DW (6.9ms G2G, 120Hz) for instance offered a smoother experience without that dark smearing becoming a problem. Of course you are then having to live with a much lower contrast ratio and put up with the pale "IPS glow" from that technology, so it depends what is important to you. For a VA panel, the 32GK850G was a good option we felt when it came to gaming."

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    ===============================================

    Personally there is no way I am going back to 860:1 or 970:1 contrast ratio and .14 black depth tn and ips screens ever.
    I have a three VA screens at my desk which are 4200:1 , ~ 3000:1(LG g-sync gaming), and 6100:1 contrast ratios. I love the 32" LG for gaming at 60fps on dark souls III and 120 capped on some other games like vermintide2, grim dawn.

    I'm hoping the 43" 4k 144hz HDR600 and HDR1000(FALD? unknown) VA based monitors due out in 2019 - 2020 are good. If FALD is included on the HDR1000 version the contrast ratio could hit 19,000:1 or more with accompanying deep blacks. The only way IPS can do dark is by using FALD in an expensive display, which is currently $2000+ and only ~13" tall 4k. I have no interest in them but those 27" IPS hdr FALD monitors can do 8000:1 to 11,0000:1 depending which is good. Of course FALD and OLED have tradeoffs.. a dim or bloom zone offset area (worse in HDR content color brightness' side by side contrast levels), and OLED has a 600nit AutoBrightnessLimiter that kicks in to reduce the chance of burn in (and has zero burn in warranty period so if you are unlucky somehow you're screwed).
     
  17. DoubleTap

    DoubleTap [H]ard|Gawd

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    I sold my S2417DG TN monitors and got an AW3417DW which I generally like but it has some serious glow in the lower left corner (pretty common on this monitor)

    I'm thinking of returning it or maybe just selling it to get the new Samsung 5120x1440 120hz HDR super ultrawide. I could use the extra width for work and I'm not sure I can live with IPS glow but I also don't know if VA ghosting will be a deal breaker.
     
  18. jbltecnicspro

    jbltecnicspro [H]ardness Supreme

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    elvn, I usually use 120hz with my monitor. 144hz is pointless on it. :)
     
  19. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    I'm running my monitor at 144 hz, but I'm capping my gpu to 60 for gaming. I just wanted set and forget settings for all use cases, and this works for me. In The Witcher 3 (with vsync on) I'm holding steady at 60 fps without any tearing or stutter and everything feels fine to me. For whatever reason I do get some micro stutter (but no tearing) in the much older Stalker games (with vsync on or off). The micro stutter isn't enough to bother me, and so far I have only seen it in those two Stalker games.

    I'm pretty ok with this monitor at the moment (LG 32GK650F). I like the contrast, the lack of heavy backlight glow, and the good uniformity. And the colors look fine to me. The biggest downside for me so far is that with the high constrast, white text glows on a dark background (such as the Hard Forum theme).

    I was considering sending this monitor back and getting the G-sync version, but to hell with that. A couple hundred more $ just for G-sync? Nope. I was only considering it because I'm running Windows 7, and Nvidia didn't see it fit to enable adaptive sync for any version of Windows except 10. But by the end of the year (likely sooner than that) I will be permanently running a Linux desktop any way where adaptive sync is enabled in the driver.

    I did end up having to push this monitor all the way back against my wall though because of the 32" size. So far it feels more comfortable on my eyes with the extra distance.

    I would have liked to held out for a 4K VA that is just as good quality as this one, but my IPS displays are killing my eyes. One has PWM and the other has a backlight that you could weld with. I need a monitor now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  20. elvn

    elvn 2[H]4U

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    You can try turning off some of the AA or switching it to a different type. Certain types in some games cause issues with stutter. I'd also keep track of what your frame rate graph is. If your freesync range is say 48hz - 144hz and your frame rate graph is going under 48hz ever in the graph, you can get stutter. In game Vsync potentially halving frame rates at frame rate potholes can do that too, being a massive shift in frame rate. VRR (variable refresh rate) is supposed to eliminate the need for v-sync except when you are uncapped where it kicks in if you go over your max hz in frame rates. Try uncapping stalker too, and experiment with dialing down some of the settings to see how it performs at higher frame rates. I have the g-sync version so I'm not sure what's going on with yours but I'd suspect frame rate potholes vs freesync's range since you are targeting 60fps, and perhaps free-syncs lack of buffering/duplicating frames at low fps like g-sync does. Personally I aim for 100fps in games in order to get appreciable gains out of the higher hz. It usually gives a 70 - 100 - 130fps graph. You get 50% blur reduction at 120fps and double the motion definition so straddling 100fps is a good target.

    My text does not look glowy but I did have a hard time getting whites to look white on mine. I did a lot of R-G-B tweaking in the OSD along with contrast and brightness to get it to where it looks decent compared to my other two monitors. I also bumped nvidia desktop digital vibrancy up to 52% from 50%, and i use nvidia freestyle in games which is a quick ez-mode of reshade built into the nvidia suite that allows you to move sliders for things like sharpness, contrast, brightness, color saturation, gamma, etc. on a per game basis which it remembers. Adjusting freestyle doesn't affect your desktop settings you dialed in so you can adjust per game freely.

    --------------------------

    I posted those passages of the tftcentral review to show that not all gaming VA are created equal. The amount of black smearing is a lot more on VA's that don't match or exceed the LG GK850G's exceptional overdrive which tft central mentioned as lacking in other models specficially. Grouping all gaming VA's together and running over 120fps cap is not an accurate representation of how much black smearing you might experience on the best monitor's response times+overdrive within the response time limits fps wise.
     
  21. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    I think I have tried all combos of settings with the Stalker games at this point. They aren't very demanding, and I can run them at high frame rates with a gtx 1070ti. The Witcher 3 is much more demanding and it runs as smooth as butter.