'Gamers' Are Over

Oh my! People think things I don't! And while I go out of my way to be contrarian and outside mainstream culture, I'm upset that it's lonely out here and people think I'm Weird! I'll churn out a blog post about how I'm right and the MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE are all wrong! And it's wrong to stereotype [insert trendy group here], like all those churlish mouth breathing simpleton inbred knuckledraggers who don't agree with me think!

...

Seriously, get a real job and quit crying.
 
Megalith said:
I guess I'm the only one who has no idea what the writer is trying to say, other than trying to allude to something insidious about gamers.
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4saken said:
Yeah same here. Must be missing something. Truly came across as a rant from someone angry their cheerios got pissed in.
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Armenius said:
*There is nothing journalistic about this article.*
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I read.....80-85% of the article before I just gave up....I couldn't make heads or tails about what she was complaining about. Like most professions, catering to your audience and not speaking above them will convey a great deal more information than using big words. I'm college educated and have a, in my opinion, large vocabulary but I just couldn't follow any of those sentences.

Some of you say this thread is a perfect example of proving her argument....care to explain what she is pissed off about?

I gather from other commenters here that she's upset about the misogynistic nature of games. I'm sorry Ms. Gamer but lets look at the history for a second. When video games were first developed, it was done in a business world where women were struggling to be anything more then secretaries, there were no female CEOs in the tech industry and I'm willing to bet the tech industry as a whole was about 500 men for every 1 female. Chances of a game having female involvement in its creation are pretty slim. So we have a highly male dominant industry creating games that they think are cool and guess who plays them....other males...SURPRISE SURPRISE! At the time, all the "cool kids" did NOT play games and if you did, you were classified as a nerd and a social outcast....OR you were already a social outcast and you found solace in playing games. So the years go by and these gamers grow up to become involved in the industry and they create their own games that may have been influenced by the games they played earlier in life, can you spot the connection I'm making there? This cycle happened for a few odd decades until gaming hit a saturation point in society where it has become, for the most part, an acceptable form of entertainment....a social entertainment platform even. I don't think this last bit came along until maybe....MAYBE...10 years ago? So we have 40-50 years of industry development where women were non-existent or a fractional minority that might as well be non-existent. 40-50 years of society casting the stereotype of gamers as anti-social, nerdy types, and in the 90s-00 as having a pre-disposition for violence. Now, with three generations of gamers to build from, society has finally begun to embrace the platform as a valid form of entertainment and there's an expectation from some that the art form make a 180 and be fair and equal?? Come on....seriously? Things will change but it's going to take time and its going to take more women coming into the industry as well as a consumer demand for less masculinity in games or games that can cater better to the female demographic.


But I could be completely missing the point of the article and be rambling about nothing at all.
 
People just need to stop giving so much of a fuck about what other people think. And, as always, they also need to stop feeding the trolls.
 
I've read the article and am still not sure what it's about or what point it is trying to make o_O
 
So I'm looking around at a few different usual tech sites and this nonsense is everywhere. WTH? Isn't there more important stuff to worry about, like Russia invading the Ukraine and IS taking over large swaths of territory in several different countries?? This is what we have time to blow tens of thousands of words over?

Or is this like people retreating from engaging with the larger world and cocooning into pleasing echo chambers while civilization crumbles around them?
 
flashoverride said:
So I'm looking around at a few different usual tech sites and this nonsense is everywhere. WTH? Isn't there more important stuff to worry about, like Russia invading the Ukraine and IS taking over large swaths of territory in several different countries?? This is what we have time to blow tens of thousands of words over?

Or is this like people retreating from engaging with the larger world and cocooning into pleasing echo chambers while civilization crumbles around them?
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While important topics to be discussed for sure, they're topics outside the realm of the industry. Hot air balloon enthusiast sites aren't throwing up headlines about the Islamic State or Russia being assholes...unless someone shot at RPG at their balloon. There are plenty of sites already out there discussing those topics.
 
Putting aside that the article is poorly written, the author does have a few valid points:

Where I agree with the author is that I believe the gaming community has 2 problems - one of perception and one of a lack of self-enforcement to eliminate shitty behavior by shitty people.

"People who play games" are being lumped into one homogenous group when the truth is that there is a wide variety of people who play games. Like any large group of people, there are awesome people in the community and there are shitty people. Unfortunately we are letting the shitty people dominate the perception of the entire group.

I think as a group we also don't do enough to challenge people who act shitty. Speaking about my own experience, I used to get more upset about people I thought were cheating versus people who spout racist/sexist BS during the game. The moment I realized this it really made me think about my priorities as a person. I hope that we all agree if we got rid of all the sexist/racist shit we would all have more fun.
 
Dreaz said:
This thread is a great example of the very people the author rallies against.

It's a nuanced argument, trying to separate "gamer" (culture) from "one who plays games". To say both have the same meaning is to lie to yourself, and she's basically talking about how something that once started as exclusive and niche has now broadened into something inclusive and ubiquitous. Basically, the term "gamer" is an anachronistic term that conjures up all the stereotypes of said group of people (like this thread); she's insisting that the term is no longer relevant to companies who make games and said companies should stop trying to pander to "gamers".

It's a very sharp point she's arguing, and one missed by many of the people here in the thread.

Regardless, flame on, you're just proving her point.
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Thanks for posting this, and this thread is yet another reason why we never seem to be able to even acknowledge that there's a problem.

If you've ever seen the crap a gamer who is easily identifiable as an attractive female has to put up with online, you wouldn't be having any trouble following this article's points.
 
Also, lol at gamasutra of all sites and one of its long time writers being called some no-name indie hipster who doesn't play games. That's the classic comeback to ignore this issue.
 
1186 said:
Putting aside that the article is poorly written, the author does have a few valid points:

Where I agree with the author is that I believe the gaming community has 2 problems - one of perception and one of a lack of self-enforcement to eliminate shitty behavior by shitty people.

"People who play games" are being lumped into one homogenous group when the truth is that there is a wide variety of people who play games. Like any large group of people, there are awesome people in the community and there are shitty people. Unfortunately we are letting the shitty people dominate the perception of the entire group.

I think as a group we also don't do enough to challenge people who act shitty. Speaking about my own experience, I used to get more upset about people I thought were cheating versus people who spout racist/sexist BS during the game. The moment I realized this it really made me think about my priorities as a person. I hope that we all agree if we got rid of all the sexist/racist shit we would all have more fun.
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It is more than a community, though. Nowadays gamers are just as ubiquitous, if not moreso, as movie goers in media consumption. Do we call everyone who watches movies a community or culture? How are we supposed to "enforce" human behavior? Arrest somebody? I think you hit the nail on the head by calling out the similarity between gamers and any other large group of people. Meaning, why should gamers be treated any differently? Different groups of people have different outlets, but the behavior patterns are generally the same. The internet just amplifies the voices and opinions of the extremists while they represent a very small subsection of a group.

When the trolling and attacks happen there are plenty of people who come out to shun them and express that that's not what we're really like. But they get drowned out by the negativity because that is what makes something "saucy" and interesting. And the people who like to drum up controversy feed off of this to their own satisfaction of being noticed.
 
msde said:
Thanks for posting this, and this thread is yet another reason why we never seem to be able to even acknowledge that there's a problem.

If you've ever seen the crap a gamer who is easily identifiable as an attractive female has to put up with online, you wouldn't be having any trouble following this article's points.
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Yes: the internet is the problem. Everyone I know in the industry ignores the noise on the internet because that is what the majority of it is. It is why you usually never see an actual developer respond to posts on their own forums. They have community managers and moderators to filter out the noise for them so they can acknowledge the real issues. It's cliche, but trolls are gonna troll. The best thing you can do is ignore them.
 
Armenius said:
For all of you posting "him," "he," "his": The author of this opinion piece, Leigh Alexander, is a woman. With that out of the way, I'll say I stopped reading the article halfway through because of all the stereotypes being thrown out there... before I even looked at who authored this opinion piece.

This opinion piece is basically taking the online trolling that happens by feminist trolls who often post videos of how misogyny is rampant in both the gaming industry and gamer "culture" (as if something like that actually exists) and spreading the infectious nature of such polarizing issues that get spread by mainstream media with her own anger, herself using extreme stereotypes to get clicks and attention.

The two feminists in question are Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian. The latter of whom got her "claim to fame" by trying to get a job in the video game industry without actually being able to contribute anything to it and then going on a false crusade when she was denied a place in the "club." If you watch any of her videos (I recommend watching at least one, then you can see why she is the target of such hatred on the internet) you can see straight away that she does not play video games and she has no idea what she is talking about. While I deplore the threats of physical violence, it seems that the general sense of ire is justified against Anita. She also put herself in the national spotlight by proclaiming that those threats of violence from the internet trolls were real and forced her to leave her home.

I am not too familiar with the former, Zoe Quinn, but she does have experience in the industry so her concerns are probably legitimate. But she also lowers herself to the tactic of blanket statements and false drama to get attention.

I think it is so inappropriate to call anything occurring in the actual games industry itself misogynystic. There is a legitimate problem with the big publishers out there who think that only certain characteristics will sell a game. But in an industry dominated by a male population there are always going to be certain things included in a fantasy world created by men because it is in their nature. Does that mean we should hang all men for being men? Admiration of the female form is not misogynystic...
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Bravo sir. Agreed.
 
spugnor said:
This "writer" is either a woman (sure reads like a woman wrote it), or a male apologist.

Wah, people's feelings got hurt, wah!

Video games are art. And not everyone is going to appreciate your "Vision." And some people are going to be down right rude about it. We're not here to stroke your fragile indie developer ego. We're here to game.

Sadly, i think the term gamer has devolved into meaning people who play video games. A true gamer plays many games, video gaming is just a part of what makes a gamer a gamer. Hell, there are gamers in political office, they are playing the "politics game." The best sports players tend to be gamers, they learn the ins and outs of their particular game, and how best to exploit their strengths and the weaknesses of their opponents.

Gaming isn't some mouth breather on the couch with a controller in hand (necessarily), any idiot can play a game. A true gamer learns how to best the game. By learning about it, strategizing, coming up with out of the box solutions (exploits even).
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I hate to double post, but this just has to be quoted again. Spot-on, spugnor.

The white-knight SJW male apologists will be erased, eventually.

The bolded last paragraph I also like. I always try to "break" whatever game I'm playing. Some people take offense when I can build an ARPG character who's nearly invincible, so they cry "broken!" and "nerf!". In my view, the objective of any gamer in any game is always to try to "break" the game. That's what you're playing for. That's when you "win".
 
TwistedAegis said:
Don't think it's gamers, it's people online in general. Lack of empathy, hyperbole, complete disconnect from consequences of words - look at Youtube comments, or news story comments. Its a cesspool sometimes.

In general, seems people are less willing to talk to one another and merely talking at one another, trying to get to some predetermined location regardless of any person or point standing in their way. I'm absolutely guilty of this myself, although I try to work at it.
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Yup.

The talking-at-one-another-and-not-to-one-another thing has gotten worse with the rise of Facebook, Twitter, and the like. People have gotten used to having their own little corner of the internet which is all about them and their views. It used to be healthy debate could be found in many an online forum; now people just make statements—not thought-out responses.
 
Its funny how all the angry little men in this thread are basically validating the article that they are trashing.

I really don't understand what there is to be insulted by in the article unless you actually are one of the inept man children she complains about in it. Is the article really that hard to understand? Half the posts in this thread are people saying they don't understand the article. Reading is difficult, I guess?
 
maverikv said:
Its funny how all the angry little men in this thread are basically validating the article that they are trashing.

I really don't understand what there is to be insulted by in the article unless you actually are one of the inept man children she complains about in it. Is the article really that hard to understand? Half the posts in this thread are people saying they don't understand the article. Reading is difficult, I guess?
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"Angry little men"
"inept man children"

Gotcha.
 
Armenius said:
It is more than a community, though. Nowadays gamers are just as ubiquitous, if not moreso, as movie goers in media consumption. Do we call everyone who watches movies a community or culture? How are we supposed to "enforce" human behavior? Arrest somebody? I think you hit the nail on the head by calling out the similarity between gamers and any other large group of people. Meaning, why should gamers be treated any differently? Different groups of people have different outlets, but the behavior patterns are generally the same. The internet just amplifies the voices and opinions of the extremists while they represent a very small subsection of a group.

When the trolling and attacks happen there are plenty of people who come out to shun them and express that that's not what we're really like. But they get drowned out by the negativity because that is what makes something "saucy" and interesting. And the people who like to drum up controversy feed off of this to their own satisfaction of being noticed.
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Totally agree with you on your points. I would say I do see people who play video games as slightly different as "people who watch movies/tv/read books" because (at least in the context of multi-player) there is a lot more interaction between people who play games. When I go to a movie I don't talk to the other people in the theater. When I play a multiplayer game I have a deeper level of interaction with strangers. This is one of the things that I love about games over other media. It creates the opportunity to create community, even if they are temporary.

In terms of my comments of self-enforcement I should clarify. The things I am thinking about are things like kicking/banning people for racist/abusive language. Or at least calling someone out during a multi-player game for that kind of shit. Only in the last couple of years have I seen that happening. Wish it happened sooner. Wish I had been more proactive in the past about calling people out.
 
Just go play a round or two of casual CS:GO and leave voice on. You'll lose faith in the human race. Because it mostly is not young kids but young adults behaving in ways that boggle the mind.

The worst part is, most of them are better than me. (It's just not fair) ;)
 
Advil said:
Just go play a round or two of casual CS:GO and leave voice on. You'll lose faith in the human race. Because it mostly is not young kids but young adults behaving in ways that boggle the mind.

The worst part is, most of them are better than me. (It's just not fair) ;)
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Believe it or not, the fact that they are trash talking and killing each other virtually is a vast, vast improvement in human history and human relations.

In many places and many cultures, killing people because they don't belong to your clan/tribe/sect/nation is perfectly acceptable behavior. Heck, in most of our (US and Europe) history it's been perfectly acceptable behavior. The fact that people have graduated to saying bad things and thinking bad things is an improvement, because they are not actually physically carrying out bad things.
 
maverikv said:
Its funny how all the angry little men in this thread are basically validating the article that they are trashing.

I really don't understand what there is to be insulted by in the article unless you actually are one of the inept man children she complains about in it. Is the article really that hard to understand? Half the posts in this thread are people saying they don't understand the article. Reading is difficult, I guess?
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Tl:DR: People who don't agree with me are dumb fucks.

Move along now.
 
Yes, yes I did. By writing this inane, condescending and hateful comment you simply showed yourself part of the crowd of anonymous trash-talkers we pointed out was the real source of the problem. Thank you for your contribution.
 
On a side note, there have been numerous studies showing that with anonymity, human nature tends to be cruel and self-centered.
 
USMCGrunt said:
I gather from other commenters here that she's upset about the misogynistic nature of games. I'm sorry Ms. Gamer but lets look at the history for a second. When video games were first developed, it was done in a business world where women were struggling to be anything more then secretaries, there were no female CEOs in the tech industry and I'm willing to bet the tech industry as a whole was about 500 men for every 1 female. Chances of a game having female involvement in its creation are pretty slim. So we have a highly male dominant industry creating games that they think are cool and guess who plays them....other males...SURPRISE SURPRISE!
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I have to stop you here. The industry isn't mail dominated, either on the developer side or the playing side, because women weren't welcome or allowed in or had a hard time. It is because women generally aren't as interested. You should watch this:

The Gender Equality Paradox



msde said:
Thanks for posting this, and this thread is yet another reason why we never seem to be able to even acknowledge that there's a problem.

If you've ever seen the crap a gamer who is easily identifiable as an attractive female has to put up with online, you wouldn't be having any trouble following this article's points.
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Oh, please, this is exactly the kind of false shit feminists and SJWs are shoving down our throats the past years. In 99% of the cases it is simply the Internet, the same for everyone, or some dumb little kids. Zoe Quinn's example of lying about the alleged bullying and the following gaming news sites coverage of the bullshit is just the latest example just how much these SJW lowlifes have influenced the public perception of this non-existing misogyny.
 
1186 said:
Totally agree with you on your points. I would say I do see people who play video games as slightly different as "people who watch movies/tv/read books" because (at least in the context of multi-player) there is a lot more interaction between people who play games. When I go to a movie I don't talk to the other people in the theater. When I play a multiplayer game I have a deeper level of interaction with strangers. This is one of the things that I love about games over other media. It creates the opportunity to create community, even if they are temporary.

In terms of my comments of self-enforcement I should clarify. The things I am thinking about are things like kicking/banning people for racist/abusive language. Or at least calling someone out during a multi-player game for that kind of shit. Only in the last couple of years have I seen that happening. Wish it happened sooner. Wish I had been more proactive in the past about calling people out.
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Good points all around. The real-time interaction we have while playing video games can make the experience more toxic. Competitive multiplayer can make communities splintered by tribal mentalities. For the most part, though, I find gamers to be a reasonable lot. Again, it's just the extremists at both ends of the spectrum who end up being the loudest and paid the most attention.

As to your second point: makes sense, but once something is on the internet it is there forever, even with best efforts being taken to delete said content. As I said in my last post, the internet is the problem. The anonymity gives people (especially adolescent minds) the thought that they can say anything and get away with it.

All that said, I do still have faith in humanity with an optimistic outlook because of all the reasons I stated. I tend to ignore a lot of media coverage of these things because they are both feeding the trolls and looking for clicks/ratings while the reality is it's not as big as a problem as it is being made out to be. The most vocal on the internet is a microcosm of the bigger picture.
 
Dekarx said:
Yes, yes I did. By writing this inane, condescending and hateful comment you simply showed yourself part of the crowd of anonymous trash-talkers we pointed out was the real source of the problem. Thank you for your contribution.
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Uh, the article is specifically about those anonymous trash talkers. Did you think this was just a trolly article about everyone that plays games or something? I play games.
 
jimmyb said:
You guys get pretty defensive when someone criticizes gaming culture.
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Rolleyes.gif
 
Dreaz said:
This thread is a great example of the very people the author rallies against.

It's a nuanced argument, trying to separate "gamer" (culture) from "one who plays games". To say both have the same meaning is to lie to yourself, and she's basically talking about how something that once started as exclusive and niche has now broadened into something inclusive and ubiquitous. Basically, the term "gamer" is an anachronistic term that conjures up all the stereotypes of said group of people (like this thread); she's insisting that the term is no longer relevant to companies who make games and said companies should stop trying to pander to "gamers".

It's a very sharp point she's arguing, and one missed by many of the people here in the thread.

Regardless, flame on, you're just proving her point.
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Well, a lot of people are sensitive about the label they apply to themselves to make the thing they do for fun into something meaningful and socially significant. It happens with other recreational activities too so isolating people who play video games might not be completely fair, but what she's getting at is pretty much spot on. People feel threatened, get upset, and insult or rage at the author without even putting in the thinking necessary to actually understand the point and it's sorta sad to see it happen.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Well, a lot of people are sensitive about the label they apply to themselves to make the thing they do for fun into something meaningful and socially significant. It happens with other recreational activities too so isolating people who play video games might not be completely fair, but what she's getting at is pretty much spot on. People feel threatened, get upset, and insult or rage at the author without even putting in the thinking necessary to actually understand the point and it's sorta sad to see it happen.
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Spoken in true SJW's superficial, straw man manner.
 
Meeho said:
I have to stop you here. The industry isn't mail dominated, either on the developer side or the playing side, because women weren't welcome or allowed in or had a hard time. It is because women generally aren't as interested. You should watch this:

The Gender Equality Paradox
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I was speaking more in terms of when video gaming was in it's infancy in the 60s-70s. The business world at the time was not a friendly place for women trying to break out of secretaries and low level office worker drones. I never meant to imply the industry was hostile towards women, only that they were not part of it in any meaningful way, either as developers of products or as consumers of them, for decades and now that it's an accepted form of entertainment and women want a bigger part, some of them expect it to be an overnight change and everything be equal and fair and right...just ain't gonna happen that fast.
 
I'm very insecure so instead of examining how I view myself at all I'll just call anyone who I think may be insulting me, whether they actually are or not, a SJW and ignore everything they say. This way I don't have to expend any effort at all any my flimsy constructed sense of self worth centered around a product I buy will remain in tact.
 
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