Gamer seeks future-proof card

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djBon2112

Supreme [H]ardness
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Jul 29, 2006
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Hello everyone. I'm looking for a card to replace my aging x850, whos shortcomings are becoming painfully clear in new games like Oblivion and the BF 2142 demo. I'm looking for a good solid card (PCIe) that will last me until we start seeing a large number of DX10 titles (I'm thinking a good year or more). Can the x1950 Pro deliver on the requirements below, and if not, what would be the best card to look at? (I'm an ATi guy, but will swing to nVidia if need be.)

Card Must:

- Play Oblivion @ 1024x768 (75Hz) with 4xAA, High quality (distances all maxed, HDR enabled), getting NO LESS than 40 FPS at any point.
- Be able to handle the above quality (or maybe 2xAA) on an HDTV @ the standard resolution.

Any recomendations? This is just initial speculation, so price doesn't matter.

And yes, I know I'm picky about this, but I want this card to last a little while, while still being able to play games on high quality.
 
Ain't nothing future-proof available, considering the imminent launch of DX10 :D
An X1900XT should last a good while and is at a very attractive price point (X1950XTX really doesn't warrant the price tag considering the memory speed makes no difference until you combine high-res with AA, and even then it's minimal). 7900GT and X1800XT are also good options, but I don't think the savings outweigh the performance delta.
 
I'm not even sure an x1950XT will be enough, especially if you want AA. 1024x768 is not the problem, 1920x1080 is the problem.

There's more pixels in 1920x1080 than 1600x1200.
 
djBon2112 said:
Card Must:

- Play Oblivion @ 1024x768 (75Hz) with 4xAA, High quality (distances all maxed, HDR enabled), getting NO LESS than 40 FPS at any point.
Click to expand...

Okay so I re-read and the 7900GT is clearly not an option (HDR+AA). Whatever you get, you will drop below 40FPS at those settings. I have a heavily overclocked X1900XT and it hovers around 30FPS at some points (which is more than playable in Oblivion btw, and I'm a real stickler for smooth framerates) with most sliders maxed (not all) @ 1280x1024 with HDR and 4xAA. This is almost exactly the same performance as I got @ 1024x768 with no overclock.
 
there's no such thing as future proof but you can come very close by buying the best performing card at a good price point...

Main thing you should do is upgrade your ram... Believe you would greatly be improving how well your games run...

850xt is not a bad card for oblivion... I play 1440x900 with it but I have more ram than you... I get constant good frame rates...

As for BF2142... You can play that too if you just upgrade your memory...

Right now you have options.....

I don't what you're price point is and no card can do minumum of 40fps in oblivion except maybe crossfire or SLI...

1900XT 256meg=about$245

7900GS 256meg=about $205

7900GT 256meg=about $270

But I think you should really be picking up a 512meg card...

Wait a while and maybe see what 1950pro is all about 512meg $240

Or you can just pickup now...
1900XT or XTX probably cheaper if you go with XT
7900GTX
 
Shava said:
The x1950xtx should be more then enough.
Click to expand...
What about the Pro? Will it be about the same?

Edit: Ok, given what I've been reading, scratch the AA completely. It's too much of a performance dent, and I don't see much of a difference.
 
defaultluser said:
I'm not even sure an x1950XT will be enough, especially if you want AA. 1024x768 is not the problem, 1920x1080 is the problem.

There's more pixels in 1920x1080 than 1600x1200.
Click to expand...

Don't most HDTV's actually run at 1366x768 though? The ones I've looked at here in the UK don't do 1920x1080 (admittedly, they're not super-expensive models).
 
rincewind said:
Don't most HDTV's actually run at 1366x768 though? The ones I've looked at here in the UK don't do 1920x1080 (admittedly, they're not super-expensive models).
Click to expand...
That's the resolution I've been seeing.
 
rincewind said:
Don't most HDTV's actually run at 1366x768 though? The ones I've looked at here in the UK don't do 1920x1080 (admittedly, they're not super-expensive models).
Click to expand...

Those are plasmas. When you specify HDTV, we have to expect the worst. Most of the more expensive models do 1080i, and some even do 1080p.

Yes, an x1900 XT will do you just fine. You don't have to spend more for the XTX.
 
I'm looking more at the x1950s, mainly so I can edge out a friend :p, but yea.

But yea. Given what I've been reading, I've updated my criteria:

1024x768, High quality (with HDR), NO AA, no less than 40 FPS.
HDTV (whatever the standard in Canada is), Medium quality, no less than 30 FPS.

Hopefully that's a little less intensive.

I've also developed a bit of a budget: $350-400 (CAD) max.

Also, no one has answered, would an x1950 Pro cover this? If it can, I'd probably get that simply because it's $200ish. If not, whatever.
 
djBon2112 said:
What about the Pro? Will it be about the same?
Click to expand...

No. It has 4 fewer ROP's and 12 fewer ALU's (though I don't think the missing ALU's will be noticed). Fewer ROP's is not good for high resolutions.
Being on a 80nm process the core should scale higher, but this also means it is unlikely to be an XT with some units disabled (no 80nm X1950XT has been announced). By default this card will be slower than an X1900XT by a fair margin, which isn't good considering the price point is very simiilar. This whole X1950 refresh is a bit daft (reminds me of the X850's), and the Pro is probably just a testbed for the new fab process.

EDIT: 4 fewer ROP's also means 4 fewer TMU's, as these are coupled.
 
Alright, so I'm better going with a 1950 XTX or a 1900 XT/XTX then, I guess? Now within those three, which is most likely to last me the longest?

Oh, and to the poster a couple above, I'm planning another GB of RAM in the near future.
 
rincewind said:
No. It has 4 fewer ROP's and 12 fewer ALU's (though I don't think the missing ALU's will be noticed). Fewer ROP's is not good for high resolutions.
Being on a 80nm process the core should scale higher, but this also means it is unlikely to be an XT with some units disabled (no 80nm X1950XT has been announced). By default this card will be slower than an X1900XT by a fair margin, which isn't good considering the price point is very simiilar. This whole X1950 refresh is a bit daft (reminds me of the X850's), and the Pro is probably just a testbed for the new fab process.

EDIT: 4 fewer ROP's also means 4 fewer TMU's, as these are coupled.
Click to expand...

Actually 1950pro is much cheaper than the 1900xt... Far as 512megs are concerened...

Very good card if it does overclock into 700+ ranges for cheap...
 
Marvelous said:
Actually 1950pro is much cheaper than the 1900xt... Far as 512megs are concerened...

Very good card if it does overclock into 700+ ranges for cheap...
Click to expand...

I was thinking about the 256mb XT, which will still be faster except maybe in a few choice situations. The extra 256mb doesn't make a huge difference on the XT, and it will mean even less on a slower card.

ATi concocts the 256mb XT, presumably to gain a stronger presence at the $250 mark. "Yeah, not everyone wants 512mb of VRAM"
"But what if they do?"
"I know....we make a new card which is ultimately less powerful, but....and here's the clever bit...it DOES have 512mb or VRAM. Same price."
"Er, isn't that kinda pointless"
"Yeah, but Derek thought up the 256Mb X1300 and HE got promoted!"

Hurrah for cluttering the market with pointless new products. A cut-down version of this, a souped-up version of that. It's fucking clown-shoes.
 
As others have said, there is no such thing as "future proof". Buy what suits your needs and your budget. Heck, after I fried my BFG, mota put in an old Matrox for me. I don't game, and I can't even tell the difference. :p

djBon2112 said:
I'm looking more at the x1950s, mainly so I can edge out a friend :p, but yea.
Click to expand...
Buying a card based on an e-penis pissing match is just wrong. :rolleyes:
 
rincewind said:
I was thinking about the 256mb XT, which will still be faster except maybe in a few choice situations. The extra 256mb doesn't make a huge difference on the XT, and it will mean even less on a slower card.

ATi concocts the 256mb XT, presumably to gain a stronger presence at the $250 mark. "Yeah, not everyone wants 512mb of VRAM"
"But what if they do?"
"I know....we make a new card which is ultimately less powerful, but....and here's the clever bit...it DOES have 512mb or VRAM. Same price."
"Er, isn't that kinda pointless"
"Yeah, but Derek thought up the 256Mb X1300 and HE got promoted!"

Hurrah for cluttering the market with pointless new products. A cut-down version of this, a souped-up version of that. It's fucking clown-shoes.
Click to expand...

It sure does make a difference at least more so on Radeon cards... Believe... Some games need more texture than 256megs can handle like "TITAN QUEST" for instance... you will double your frame rates in that particular game... Other games do get a quite a bit of boost actually perhaps not in older games like Half Life 2 or even Farcry...

v_thumb.php


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I think it's just a good idea if you're going to keep your card for a while to get 512 meg card... The 1950pro 512 meg seems to fit the bill... 80nm, high memory speed... Great potential to overclock the core and match the 1900xt 512meg version or come very close to it...



joemama said:
NO

SUCH

THING

DOES.NOT.EXIST
Click to expand...

It will come next month...
 
I'm thinking for that small of a resolution (never thought I'd be saying that) you'd be fine with any X1900XT and up, or even 7900GT or higher. And yes, unless you are talking about three months from now, there's no such thing as future proof :)
 
Marvelous said:
It sure does make a difference at least more so on Radeon cards... Believe... Some games need more texture than 256megs can handle like "TITAN QUEST" for instance... you will double your frame rates in that particular game... Other games do get a quite a bit of boost actually perhaps not in older games like Half Life 2 or even Farcry...

v_thumb.php


v_thumb.php
Click to expand...
I did say huge difference, and provided links show a fairly small difference. The X1950Pro scores will be lower still, although yes I'd go for the 512mb X1900XT. The 256mb was for price comparison with the Pro.

Marvelous said:
I think it's just a good idea if you're going to keep your card for a while to get 512 meg card... The 1950pro 512 meg seems to fit the bill... 80nm, high memory speed... Great potential to overclock the core and match the 1900xt 512meg version or come very close to it...
Click to expand...

Most XT's can max out OD on the core, which is 690MHz. For the X1950Pro to equal that, it needs to be running at 920MHz. It seems pretty unlikely even for an 80nm part, unless you use phase/LN2 (in which case you are not the kind of person who's going to buy one of these puppies). Considering the flimsy cooler I've seen in pictures of the card, the great overclocking potential will very probably only become apparent by buying an aftermarket cooler (ie just buy the XT and save the hassle). But we shall see in due course.


I'm not saying it's a bad card at all; I just don't feel there's any need for it. OK, so they need to test the 80nm process - but do they need to muddle the mixture at the same time? Considering the X1950XT is equipped with GDDR4, it seems to me a faster core would go hand-in-hand - ideal candidate for a die shrink :confused: As it is, the extra memory bandwidth increase is largely academic.
 
X1950pro will be a great card and a hell of a value for $200 but the 512mb version is supposed to cost around $250. And like someone said, it's 3/4ths the card of an X1900XT.

You can get a 512mb X1900XT for around $325.
It should easily hit XTX speeds.
Best bang for the buck.

X1950XTX is not worth the extra $100 imo.
 
Wow... but seriously. By "futureproof" I mean able to last me a good year or so before games force me to upgrade. I know there isn't a card that will stay on top for ever... :rolleyes:

Given recomendations here and from other people, I've settled on an x1900XT. Thanks for the help, and please don't turn this into an argument. I just asked for advice.
 
rincewind said:
I did say huge difference, and provided links show a fairly small difference. The X1950Pro scores will be lower still, although yes I'd go for the 512mb X1900XT. The 256mb was for price comparison with the Pro.
Click to expand...

But surely you're not only looking at games for today if you're picking up a high end card... That is why I said if you were going to keep the card for a while you should pickup a 512meg card for future games to come... It does make a difference more so in gameplay maybe not so much on benchmarks...

http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html?modelx=33&model1=552&model2=551&chart=222


Most XT's can max out OD on the core, which is 690MHz. For the X1950Pro to equal that, it needs to be running at 920MHz. It seems pretty unlikely even for an 80nm part, unless you use phase/LN2 (in which case you are not the kind of person who's going to buy one of these puppies). Considering the flimsy cooler I've seen in pictures of the card, the great overclocking potential will very probably only become apparent by buying an aftermarket cooler (ie just buy the XT and save the hassle). But we shall see in due course.


I'm not saying it's a bad card at all; I just don't feel there's any need for it. OK, so they need to test the 80nm process - but do they need to muddle the mixture at the same time? Considering the X1950XT is equipped with GDDR4, it seems to me a faster core would go hand-in-hand - ideal candidate for a die shrink :confused: As it is, the extra memory bandwidth increase is largely academic.
Click to expand...

920mhz is a defintite possibility with voltage increase via ATITOOLS and better cooler... Don't rule out it's built on 80nm instead of 90nm... I'm figuring most will do 800mhz which would come so close 1900XT speed and plus the 512meg frame buffer and you will have a very competive card to 1900xt 256meg version speed wise... But you also get 512megs for future games or games that take advantage of 512meg memory buffer...

Everything has to do with price.... If everyone can pickup 1950XTX for same price I'm sure they would do that... And 1950pro 512meg version seems to be sweet spot if you're willing to overclock...
 
Stereophile said:
X1950pro will be a great card and a hell of a value for $200 but the 512mb version is supposed to cost around $250. And like someone said, it's 3/4ths the card of an X1900XT.

You can get a 512mb X1900XT for around $325.
It should easily hit XTX speeds.
Best bang for the buck.

X1950XTX is not worth the extra $100 imo.
Click to expand...

It's actually more than 75% more like 80%... It has close memory speeds -4 pipes, 8pixel shaders... It just needs to overclock the core...
 
Marvelous said:
It's actually more than 75% more like 80%... It has close memory speeds -4 pipes, 8pixel shaders... It just needs to overclock the core...
Click to expand...

I thought it was -4 pipes and -12 pixel shaders ?
Plus slightly lower core and memory speeds = 3/4ths of an X1900XT/XTX

Remember the $200 card is only 256mb vram. The 512mb vram model is supposed to cost $250. 3/4 * $325 = approx $250. So you're getting the performance that you pay for. It's basically an X1900XT/XTX Jr.

Relative to an X1900XT/XTX it may overclock better due to the smaller die process,
but I think 800+mhz on air cooling won't be common and the memory will OC just like an XT. I guess you could say 80% if you're counting on the extra overclocking to make up the extra 5%, but in reality, it needs a 25mhz core and memory OC just to fit the 3/4ths of an XT paradigm.

The quieter single slot cooling, with better CF support, will be a factor for some people, and others just don't want to pay what an X1900XT/XTX costs. But for performance "bang for the buck", I think these heavily discounted X1900XT/XTX still win out. The X1900XT and X1950pro are about equal in terms of what you get for the money, but I certainly wouldn't want less than what an X1900XT/XTX gives in Oblivion (which is great but still not perfect). And the extra headroom will be nice for future titles like ET quake wars and Crysis. Ultimately factors like resolution and image quality settings will play heavily into whether an X1900 or 512mb X1950pro makes the most sense. :cool:
 
djBon2112 said:
Wow... but seriously. By "futureproof" I mean able to last me a good year or so before games force me to upgrade. I know there isn't a card that will stay on top for ever... :rolleyes:

Given recomendations here and from other people, I've settled on an x1900XT. Thanks for the help, and please don't turn this into an argument. I just asked for advice.
Click to expand...
My advice to you is to also upgrade your cpu. Your 3500+@2.24Ghz is not really going to be all it can be with a x1900xt. You said you were adding the 2nd GB of ram; that is a good idea. But you might as well put down the $150 or so on a 3800+X2
 
Stereophile said:
I thought it was -4 pipes and -12 pixel shaders ?
Plus slightly lower core and memory speeds = 3/4ths of an X1900XT/XTX

Remember the $200 card is only 256mb vram. The 512mb vram model is supposed to cost $250. 3/4 * $325 = approx $250. So you're getting the performance that you pay for. It's basically an X1900XT/XTX Jr.

Relative to an X1900XT/XTX it may overclock better due to the smaller die process,
but I think 800+mhz on air cooling won't be common and the memory will OC just like an XT. I guess you could say 80% if you're counting on the extra overclocking to make up the extra 5%, but in reality, it needs a 25mhz core and memory OC just to fit the 3/4ths of an XT paradigm.

The quieter single slot cooling, with better CF support, will be a factor for some people, and others just don't want to pay what an X1900XT/XTX costs. But for performance "bang for the buck", I think these heavily discounted X1900XT/XTX still win out. The X1900XT and X1950pro are about equal in terms of what you get for the money, but I certainly wouldn't want less than what an X1900XT/XTX gives in Oblivion (which is great but still not perfect). And the extra headroom will be nice for future titles like ET quake wars and Crysis. Ultimately factors like resolution and image quality settings will play heavily into whether an X1900 or 512mb X1950pro makes the most sense. :cool:
Click to expand...

It was late last night.. -12 less pixel shaders.... But you forgetting it's very close to full memory speed of 1900xt... That counts for another 5% I would say...

Well we'll see how these suckers overclock once it's out come next month... Looks to be very competive if it does overclock... If 1900xt 512meg drops price I want that but right now it's still too expensive for my taste...
 
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