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Game Devs Only Use PhysX For The Cash
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MrLonghair
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It's spelt physics. P h y s i c s.
Outamyhead
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Do you use the physx option if available, I sure as heck don't, nothing uses it, besides Batman AA, or anything else using the Unreal engine.
NoOther
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That is complete bullshit. It is 100% irrelevant what card is rendering the game. If there are problems with PhysX, then it is Nvidia's problem - period. Nvidia wouldn't have to support ATI at all - they just have to support their own damn hardware but apparently that's too hard for them. They'd rather give developers hand jobs than actually support their customers.
If that ridiculous claim was even remotely true then we'd all be too busy trying to get all of our drivers playing nice to actually do anything. Does your sound card ever corrupt your graphics? No? How about your NIC? Is your RAID card causing missing shadows? No? Then why the fuck would your physics card cause graphical glitches? Answer: it fucking doesn't.
/rant
Sorry, that isn't necessarily directed at you (definitely not meant as a personal attack), I'm just sick of people defending Nvidia with that utter bullshit. I swear if any other company just up and *disabled* people's hardware people would be going apeshit over it. But since its Nvidia somehow its not only not wrong, but we should thank them for avoiding conflicts!
DX11 is not at all like PhysX. PhysX's direction is entirely determined by Nvidia. DirectX's direction is guided by Microsoft, but both ATI and Nvidia (as well as others) help hammer out the standard.
First of all it isn't BS. Companies spend money on support. All kinds of people call in to support and claim all kinds of BS. They will say the product is faulty when there is nothing wrong with either PhysX or the Nvidia card. The problem was people had issues with their ATI cards and then were calling up Nvidia trying to get Nvidia to fix a problem that had absolutely nothing to do with them. That cost time and money on Nvidia's part to tell the person they had an issue with their ATI card. It is a perfectly legitimate claim on Nvidia's part. Does that mean they should lock out ATI? *Shrug* There is not reason "not" to lock out ATI. Also they didn't "disable" ATI hardware, they disallowed the use of PhysX when an ATI card was present. Those people can still use the ATI card or the Nvidia card, they can even use both cards, they just can't use both cards AND do PhysX, not with official Nvidia drivers and they can't get Nvidia support for it. Really, cry me a river here. Next you will be telling us the internet is a fundamental right.
Also all this back and forth about Nvidia making PhysX "only" for Nvidia GPUs is also BS. PhysX can be licensed and was offered to ATI to license. ATI didn't want to license it, so there is no PhysX support for ATI cards. Again, more people just trying to make up stuff to throw at Nvidia.
Now if you want to complain about other Nvidia practices like the whole fiasco with AA in Batman, or the late development and release of Fermi, of the expense of their cards, go right ahead. But don't try to make everyday business seem evil just because it has Nvidia's name. ATI licensed the use of Havok, but not PhysX, that was a decision. ATI also came out with the whole AMD Game! scam to get more people to buy their dedicated hardware. They have done just as many dubious tactics as Nvidia, but have had less money to do it with, so Nvidia's actions seem all the worse. Just like Microsoft or Google. The bigger you get, the shadier everything you do seems.
No, it is bullshit. What you are you saying is that it is perfectly acceptable for Nvidia to disable something consumers bought simply because some people might call Nvidia's support when they really were supposed to call ATI's support? FUCK NO.
I seriously don't understand how *anyone* can defend what Nvidia did. I really just can't. It would be like if you had an AMD chipset and it disabled itself because you were using an Nvidia video card. Oh no, you might call AMD's support when you should have called Nvidia's! Waaaa! Supports costs! Fucking bullshit, plain and simple.
And as you point out, you can still use the Nvidia card as a video card - they only locked you out from using it for PhysX. That right there *SCREAMS* bullshit. Clearly support isn't a problem or they would have disabled the entire thing. No, what happened is Nvidia fucked their customers and people here bent over and asked for more.
I totally agree.
You mightt have an argument for an evil conspiracy except there has been a publicly known way to enable PhsyX with an ATI+Nvidia card for a while now. Nvidia would have patched away the work around if they were doing it to screw people just because they could.
Hacks are all well and good, but if Nvidia refuses to supports its products then I refuse to buy an Nvidia card. And I encourage others to do the same. I swear if it was any other company other than Nvidia there would be a major boycott going on here. If OCZ started disabling its RAM if its installed with Crucial RAM, people would be livid. If BFG refused to support a card you bought because you SLI'd it with an eVGA card, there would be mass outrage. If Nvidia starts disabling features because it detects an ATI card, people praise Nvidia for its wise decision. What. The. Fuck?
Who the hell mixes ram? It's generally adviced to not use mismatched pairs.
A BFG card uses exactly the same drivers, the same chip, the same ram as an EVGA card.
These are the best examples you can come up with? Strawmen is an overstatement of the strenght of such arguments.
Except why worry about the 5% of people that would install a hack, when you sucessfully nerfed the 95% that had older Nvidia cards with almost no effort? (Referring to users brave enough to do Nvidia + ATI if it 'just worked' but not brave enough to hack/re-hack drivers.)
It isn't a strawman argument at all. Nvidia's claim (and the claim of their defenders around here) is that the reason they disabled PhysX is due to *support* issues. The situations I provided are, from a support perspective, the exact same (two companies providing similar components at the same time). There isn't a single technical reason for what Nvidia did. And people mix RAM all the time.
There are shitloads of examples if you want. Multiple chipsets (X58 + NF200 comes to mind), RAID and storage controllers, sound cards (discreet, onboard, passthru on ATI's video cards), networking (discreet, onboard, wifi) - and many have multiple connection types as well (PCI, PCI-E, USB, etc...). The simple fact is that everyone but Nvidia is perfectly happy to let you mix and match components to your hearts content, support is not a valid reason to prevent that.
The bottom line is that I expect anything that I buy to be supported 100%, and Nvidia simply doesn't do that.
Hornet
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You're right, I've never played Bad Company 2 (yet), had no idea the game have such physics
That alone makes me want to get a copy of that game. Goes straight into my must-buy list
LGabrielPhoto
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As usual we can summarize the thread:
Physx, 3D vision, CUDA = equals BS for ATI fanboys
Physx, 3D vision, CUDA = cool stuff for Nvidia Fanboys
Of course now that finally ATI is waking up and getting into 3d (or so they are claiming once again) I am sure that 3d will magically become cool for red fanboys...gotta love the amount on nonsense fanboysim you read around here.
Physx, 3D vision, CUDA = equals BS for ATI fanboys
Physx, 3D vision, CUDA = cool stuff for Nvidia Fanboys
Of course now that finally ATI is waking up and getting into 3d (or so they are claiming once again) I am sure that 3d will magically become cool for red fanboys...gotta love the amount on nonsense fanboysim you read around here.
NoOther
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Your argument is still BS because they are NOT disabling ATI hardware, which is what you were claiming. They are only disabling PhysX and nothing else. Oh and btw, PhysX is an Nvidia technology also, and NO, the user is not "paying" for PhysX. They are paying for a game and they bought hardware that is capable of running PhysX. However, PhysX is only supported on Nvidia hardware alone. So, yes, your argument is BS. Your reasoning is also BS. The support issues come as I clearly stated when there is a conflict with something in the ATI hardware. The users call up with unrelated problems that cost Nvidia support money to listen to. They then have to divert those calls to ATI support and they still have an unhappy customer. To resolve the situation completely, they just say you need Nvidia hardware alone to run PhysX.
Also as other claim, you can get around it, and Nvidia is not trying to prevent people from "getting around it". They only want a valid excuse to deny support to ATI customers who try to get Nvidia to support ATI hardware, which is ridiculous.
Who uses multiple raid controllers? Who uses a AIB sound card AND onboard sound? X58 and NF200s? is one of your examples? You can't possibly expect anyone to take you seriously.
Um I do, have my onboard hooked up to some cheap speakers for things like voice chat and use my SB for my surrond sound system.
Nearly all my cards are Nvidia, I've owned exactly 1 ATI card in the past 5 years and that was a dirt cheap 4850 I picked up. The whole Physx lockout thing is just BS and so is the support excuse. Nvidia didn't have to support it at all, hell they don't generally support the cards anyways the vendors do. It was just like locking out SLI on non-nvidia boards before, there was no reason it was done other than to try and make more money.
Whats wrong with the X58 and NF200 example? Multiple chipsets from different vendors working together. And for what its worth people here do use multiple RAID controllers - hell, most of the motherboards I've had have had multiple RAID controllers. I've also had dual NIC controllers from different vendors. The point is that they all WORK and are SUPPORTED.
That isn't what I'm claiming at all. I'm claiming that Nvidia is disabling Nvidia hardware - which is *exactly* what they are doing.
Which changes nothing. Disabling part of the hardware isn't any better than disabling all of the hardware.
I had no idea Batman AA came with an Nvidia card - wow, how was that not news?
If you're going to claim my argument and reasoning are BS, at least try to get my argument correct. The next step would be to actually counter it.
Such conflicts simply don't happen. Seriously, where have you been for the last 20 years of computer hardware advancement, give or take?
Really? http://www.nvidia.com/object/support_aic.html
Nvidia doesn't do customer support, so the support argument is bullshit.
I don't want Nvidia to support ATI hardware, I want Nvidia to support Nvidia hardware. How hard is that to understand? Nvidia isn't supporting its own damn product and is literally disabling features that they use to sell the thing in the first place. Completely unacceptable.
They haven't stated from which perspective it comes from. They may have philosophical reasons for not wanting to implement it (prevents effects from affecting gameplay since they can only be enabled on certain cards) or for implementing it (significantly speeds up performance). Or could it be implementation wise (physx is a pain to code for compared to software physics, or perhaps physx makes it so much easier).
For the record, I think physx is great in the fact that it uses parallel processing units which is much faster, but extremely dumb that only one set of cards and prevents any neat gameplay physics.
For the record, I think physx is great in the fact that it uses parallel processing units which is much faster, but extremely dumb that only one set of cards and prevents any neat gameplay physics.
NoOther
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Get your story straight here. Disabling the use of a function in a game because a non-Nvidia card is present is NOT the same as disabling the hardware. Nothing in the "hardware" is disabled, just the ability to use a feature in some code.
What the hell is that supposed to mean? I never mentioned Batman to begin with, AA is not PhysX related, and to use PhysX you have to have software that uses PhysX in addition to the hardware. If you can't even understand how it all works, then no wonder you are whining about it.
You can't even figure out your own argument. So how can you expect anyone else to?
Right, video cards conflict with each other sometimes when they are the same brand. There are all sorts of things that can go wrong with hardware. Where have YOU been for the last 20 years? The more advanced parts get, the more things that go wrong with them.
Funny I guess the direct support I have gotten for Nvidia for over 3 years with my 8800GTX SLI combo is BS. I guess all the support forums Nvidia helps run for Nvidia related products are also BS. I guess Nvidia doesn't provide support to those manufacturers either. Get with the times, every company has to do some amount of support. Also don't you think that perhaps those manufacturers complaining to Nvidia about the bogus support calls didn't have an influence on it either? It isn't like MSI or EVGA can say, "Hey, we won't support your product because you have an ATI card in your computer!" No, Nvidia is the one that makes the call. So your arguments are still BS, especially because you don't even really know what you are arguing.
Again, just shows that you don't know what you are talking about.
NoOther
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Correction, I never mentioned Batman for PhysX. The comment about Batman was a completely separate issue, yet you seem to keep lumping different issues together into one issue, which is more of the BS.
If the drivers don't let me use a feature I paid for then the hardware is being disabled.
Batman AA == Batman Arkham Asylum, not Anti Aliasing.
And you said
The user absolutely pays for PhysX.
I absolutely know my argument.
Things go wrong with the hardware, yes, nobody is arguing that. Things DON'T just conflict with each other. Same brand hardware has a much larger chance of conflicting since it is using the same driver set. And any potential problems is just part of the cost of selling hardware.
I don't give a shit if 8 billion people with unrelated problems call in to Nvidia. If Nvidia sells me a feature they damn well better support it. If I want to run both ATI and Nvidia in my computer, both companies *MUST* support their hardware, no if, ands, or buts. It is completely inexcusable for one of them to simply say "fuck you" and disable what I paid for. Support costs is simply not a valid argument here. And again, they are still letting you use the video card part, just not the PhysX part - which quite clearly states that support costs are *NOT* the reason they are disabling PhysX. So even if the support costs was a valid complaint, which it isn't, Nvidia is pretty much admitting that that is NOT why they disabled PhysX.
Care to elaborate on that? Because I assure you I do know what I'm talking about.
edifyingkarma
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I know you guys are, but what am I!?