G70 worth waiting?

^eMpTy^ said:
Read their financials.

They acknowledged that their 4th quarter revenues are going to be negatively affected by the delay of their next generation gpu.

In this biz you don't get much more solid evidence than that.

That's not proof of a 32-pipe card.....
 
It's not proof of anything but a delayed part :\
(though I think he was saying that 90nm was the culprit.. too lazy to go check /edit: I was wrong, he did blame he 32 pipes)
 
it doesn't even tell the reason for the delay either

so i'd really like to know where Empty got this information that their next gen card has quote "blown up in their faces"
 
trudude said:
Are we even sure that the 7800GTX is NVIDIA's next gen card? I would argue that this is simply a refresher card like the X850XT PE and ATi knows this and that is why they are holding back.

One thing that's constantly in the back of my mind is why the hell did they switch their naming convention from NV40 to G70 just for a clock bump and some tweaks. They better really have something to "astound" us with like jakup said. And the other thing that's confusing is that they've said G70 is very close to RSX which has been in development for several years - that doesn't sound very refresh-like to me.
 
Brent_Justice said:
it doesn't even tell the reason for the delay either

so i'd really like to know where Empty got this information that their next gen card has quote "blown up in their faces"
If he told you, he'd have to kill you. Better jsut go with my *insert brand here* fortune telling glasses.
 
Brent_Justice said:
it doesn't even tell the reason for the delay either

so i'd really like to know where Empty got this information that their next gen card has quote "blown up in their faces"

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20050609093014.html

That's xbit's little collection of info...mostly I'm going by the info from Goldman Sach's since they're about as reputable as it gets...and they said the same thing...yields are a mess...the card is delayed...
 
eno-on said:
If he told you, he'd have to kill you. Better jsut go with my *insert brand here* fortune telling glasses.

LOL...that's hysterical!

Well while you're running your mouth, why don't you write a letter to xbitlabs, penstar, vr-zone, and goldman sachs and tell them that oh so funny "fortune telling glasses" joke...

I'm not making this stuff up guys. I just read the news and assume that when more than 3 different reputable sources confirm the same bit of information, that there's likely some truth to it...

Let's not forget that R520 originally taped out last December...
 
eno-on said:
Funny, wasn't much there to support your postulation of why the 520 may be delayed...

They're making a 32 pipeline chip on a process they've never used before...I mean...do I really need to draw you a picture here? why else would they be having yield problems?

Did everyone just forget about the x800xt phantom edition?

Lots of pipes + new process = poor yields.
 
^eMpTy^ said:
They're making a 32 pipeline chip on a process they've never used before...I mean...do I really need to draw you a picture here? why else would they be having yield problems?

They could be making a 16-pipe card and aiming for very high clocks....
 
I havent seen them 'confirm' your statement though. Only moderate postulating. Perhaps you should put forth your guesses on these matters as that, quesses from other informed people.

/edit
Your guesses could very well be right. I honestly dont give a crap one way or the other. Stuff will ship when it ships. It's just you attitdue that begs to be fked with.
 
eno-on said:
I havent seen them 'confirm' your statement though. Only moderate postulating. Perhaps you should put forth your guesses on these matters as that, quesses from other informed people.

What else am I supposed to do on a forum? Post excerpts from webster's dictionary?
 
trinibwoy said:
They could be making a 16-pipe card and aiming for very high clocks....

They could also be converting into an ice cream vendor and ditching their videocard business...

But, like a high clocked 16 pipe card, that's not very likely...
 
^eMpTy^ said:
What else am I supposed to do on a forum? Post excerpts from webster's dictionary?

Might learn more :\
Doesnt matter
Back to the thread.
Im guessing, despite that dissapointing 3dmark, I think the g70 is going to widen some eyes. I cant imagine 3dmark05 being a godo representative of its performance. Other than how well it performs in 3dmark05, anyway.
 
eno-on said:
I havent seen them 'confirm' your statement though. Only moderate postulating. Perhaps you should put forth your guesses on these matters as that, quesses from other informed people.

/edit
Your guesses could very well be right. I honestly dont give a crap one way or the other. Stuff will ship when it ships. It's just you attitdue that begs to be fked with.

you'll have to excuse me if I'm a little smug...it's just been one of those days...

I admit to being mildly annoyed by ignorant posts from people who clearly haven't been reading the mountain of news and speculation on the subject for the past several weeks (not pointing any fingers)...and for that I apologize...
 
^eMpTy^ said:
They could also be converting into an ice cream vendor and ditching their videocard business...

But, like a high clocked 16 pipe card, that's not very likely...

Why is a 32-pipe card more likely than a highly clocked 16-pipe card?
 
trinibwoy said:
Why is a 32-pipe card more likely than a highly clocked 16-pipe card?
Because a 1.2ghz GPU doesn't make much sense at the moment... from a practical point of view, anyway.
 
eno-on said:
Might learn more :\
Doesnt matter
Back to the thread.
Im guessing, despite that dissapointing 3dmark, I think the g70 is going to widen some eyes. I cant imagine 3dmark05 being a godo representative of its performance. Other than how well it performs in 3dmark05, anyway.

There are a lot of things about G70 that I find just plain odd.

First off, the clock speed. 430Mhz? They've been shipping 6600GTs at 550Mhz for months now...seems like they would get G70 to at least 450 if not 500.

Then there's this new GTX moniker...which smacks of an impending Ultra version which is rumored to be simply a memory bump to 1600Mhz...but who knows...

Then there's the direct statement from one of nVidia's higher-ups that said over a month ago that every chip they ship from now on will be at 90nm...which again makes 430Mhz look like a low-ball...
 
eno-on said:
Because a 1.2ghz GPU doesn't make much sense at the moment... from a practical point of view, anyway.

You're assuming that R420 pipe = R520 pipe. In either case, people have been hinting at both 16 and 32 pipes on ATi's next gen part. Unless you know what changes have been done to the architecture you can't just throw out pipeline numbers as if that's the only way to improve performance.

I'm not saying that it can't be 32, just that we have no grounds on which to assume it will be 32.
 
trinibwoy said:
Why is a 32-pipe card more likely than a highly clocked 16-pipe card?

A. All the rumors say so, and rumors are usually close to the truth.

B. It follow the trend of adding pipelines with new cores:

8500 4 pipes
9700 8 pipes
x800 16 pipes

C. Clock speeds high enough to beat a 24 pipe card would kill yields. It's easier to go a little bigger and a little faster than to go just a whole shit ton faster...
 
Could nVidia be (Gasp!) feeding us misinformation to get the hype up? :rolleyes:
Something tells me that this thing is going to much better than what its being made out to be by that 3DMark score :D
 
^eMpTy^ said:
There are a lot of things about G70 that I find just plain odd.

First off, the clock speed. 430Mhz? They've been shipping 6600GTs at 550Mhz for months now...seems like they would get G70 to at least 450 if not 500.

Then there's this new GTX moniker...which smacks of an impending Ultra version which is rumored to be simply a memory bump to 1600Mhz...but who knows...

Then there's the direct statement from one of nVidia's higher-ups that said over a month ago that every chip they ship from now on will be at 90nm...which again makes 430Mhz look like a low-ball...
Its distinctly possible that they may be heading in another direction in their architecture. (this is all conjecture, I ahve not read this anywhere, and have seen no data to support it.) We all know that different architectures can reach relatively the same performance levels of another architecture at very different clockspeeds. There ARE areas when extra MHz does make a difference, though.
For instance, both AMDs and P4s have SSE and SSEII instructions. Anything that utilises these SIMD instructions heavily in lieu of standard FPU will perform better on the higher clocked p4 because of this.
So there are trade offs. But, it is possible that a different design has caused nVidia to produce a lower clocked GPU that does certain kinds of work more 'efficiently'. It has to happen sometime. Some heavy rearranging of HOW we get work done on a GPU has to be made by someone at some point.
 
trinibwoy said:
You're assuming that R420 pipe = R520 pipe. In either case, people have been hinting at both 16 and 32 pipes on ATi's next gen part. Unless you know what changes have been done to the architecture you can't just throw out pipeline numbers as if that's the only way to improve performance.

I'm not saying that it can't be 32, just that we have no grounds on which to assume it will be 32.

I have not seen a SINGLE rumor ANYWHERE suggesting 16 pipelines on R520.

Adding pipelines isn't the only way to improve performance...it's just the easiest...why would they overclock the crap out of their cores to get 20% more performance when they could just double the number of pipelines and get double the performance at the same clock speed and have better yields?
 
Unknown-One said:
Could nVidia be (Gasp!) feeding us misinformation to get the hype up? :rolleyes:
Something tells me that this thing is going to much better than what its being made out to be by that 3DMark score :D

Ya know...it's tricky...part of me thinks they're holding back...but then I think...maybe they just want to think that they're holding something back so we won't wait for R520...
 
trinibwoy said:
You're assuming that R420 pipe = R520 pipe. In either case, people have been hinting at both 16 and 32 pipes on ATi's next gen part. Unless you know what changes have been done to the architecture you can't just throw out pipeline numbers as if that's the only way to improve performance.

I'm not saying that it can't be 32, just that we have no grounds on which to assume it will be 32.
You're right, we dont, and we jsut might see 16 crazily efficient pipelines. I remember reading something that mentioned an oddness to the new parts pipeline structiure, just can't remember what. We'll know when it's released.
 
^eMpTy^ said:
A. All the rumors say so, and rumors are usually close to the truth.

B. It follow the trend of adding pipelines with new cores:

8500 4 pipes
9700 8 pipes
x800 16 pipes

C. Clock speeds high enough to beat a 24 pipe card would kill yields. It's easier to go a little bigger and a little faster than to go just a whole shit ton faster...

Yep, only problem with the "many" rumours are that it's just one rumour regurgitated by lots of people who don't know anything. I know he's just one person but DaveB has been dropping serious hints that people should not get hung up on pipeline counts. And considering he's worth about 1000 clueless fanb0ys I'm factoring his comments into my expectations as well.

Like I said before, I'm not saying it's definitely not 32, just that I won't be surprised in the least if it's a lower number of more powerful shader pipelines. And considering how much 32 has been rammed down our throats I won't be surprised at that either....
 
eno-on said:
Its distinctly possible that they may be heading in another direction in their architecture. (this is all conjecture, I ahve not read this anywhere, and have seen no data to support it.) We all know that different architectures can reach relatively the same performance levels of another architecture at very different clockspeeds. There ARE areas when extra MHz does make a difference, though.
For instance, both AMDs and P4s have SSE and SSEII instructions. Anything that utilises these SIMD instructions heavily in lieu of standard FPU will perform better on the higher clocked p4 because of this.
So there are trade offs. But, it is possible that a different design has caused nVidia to produce a lower clocked GPU that does certain kinds of work more 'efficiently'. It has to happen sometime. Some heavy rearranging of HOW we get work done on a GPU has to be made by someone at some point.

You're absolutely correct. Just look at the x800xt versus the 6800U...x800xt is 100Mhz faster...a whopping 25%...and yet is exactly the same speed...

And I'm sure nvidia tweaked their core to get things like HDR and soft shadows running faster...

I'm just curious as to why 430Mhz? It really seems like they should be able to get it higher than that...substantially higher in fact...
 
trinibwoy said:
Yep, only problem with the "many" rumours are that it's just one rumour regurgitated by lots of people who don't know anything. I know he's just one person but DaveB has been dropping serious hints that people should not get hung up on pipeline counts. And considering he's worth about 1000 clueless fanb0ys I'm factoring his comments into my expectations as well.

Like I said before, I'm not saying it's definitely not 32, just that I won't be surprised in the least if it's a lower number of more powerful shader pipelines. And considering how much 32 has been rammed down our throats I won't be surprised at that either....

well there's this kinda intangible concept of a pipeline that is changing lately...take the 6600GT for example...technically since it only has 4 ROPs there are only 4 pixel pipelines...but it beats 8 pipeline cards...but it actually has 8 pipelines...they just share the ROPs...

so while what you're saying is entirely possible...I think if you dig deep and adjust what you define as a pipeline, something, somewhere in R520 is going to have 32 of something...because there is no substitute for parallelism...
 
Again, their may be a ceiling to clockspeed due to architectural design.
Or 430MHz may be a totally bogus number.
who knows?
 
^eMpTy^ said:
I have not seen a SINGLE rumor ANYWHERE suggesting 16 pipelines on R520.

Adding pipelines isn't the only way to improve performance...it's just the easiest...why would they overclock the crap out of their cores to get 20% more performance when they could just double the number of pipelines and get double the performance at the same clock speed and have better yields?

If you were a regular at B3D you would have seen several hints dropped about the "number" of pipelines not being important. DaveB has also come out and said "Seriously - how can anyone expect pipeline counts to double as well as adding SM3.0 support whilst extending the ALU's and register space to support full speed, single precision FP32?". Now unless he's f**king with us, I take that to mean that 32 pipes is a no-no.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=540057
 
trinibwoy said:
If you were a regular at B3D you would have seen several hints dropped about the "number" of pipelines not being important. DaveB has also come out and said "Seriously - how can anyone expect pipeline counts to double as well as adding SM3.0 support whilst extending the ALU's and register space to support full speed, single precision FP32?". Now unless he's f**king with us, I take that to mean that 32 pipes is a no-no.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=540057
The thing I can't quite remember hinted at 24 pipelines with uh, something else going on that made it ACT like 32 pipelines, so I dunno wtf. I really cant get more out of my brain than that befuddled mess.
 
^eMpTy^ said:
so while what you're saying is entirely possible...I think if you dig deep and adjust what you define as a pipeline, something, somewhere in R520 is going to have 32 of something...because there is no substitute for parallelism...

You're right but remember there is parallelism at the pipeline level as well. NV40 can issue more combinations of instructions than R420 which is one reason why it can sustain similar performance at lower clocks. R520 is rumoured to have adopted a more NV40 like approach when it comes to the ALU structure per pipe.
 
trinibwoy said:
If you were a regular at B3D you would have seen several hints dropped about the "number" of pipelines not being important. DaveB has also come out and said "Seriously - how can anyone expect pipeline counts to double as well as adding SM3.0 support whilst extending the ALU's and register space to support full speed, single precision FP32?". Now unless he's f**king with us, I take that to mean that 32 pipes is a no-no.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=540057

lol...yeah if you look closely you'll see my name about 4 inches above that post...

The definition of a pipeline is changing...I too seriously doubt that we'll see a straight double number of pipelines...at least in the traditional sense...I'm thinking 32 "extreme" pipes or something of that nature...whatever it is...I bet they spin it as 32 pipes...
 
All this smack and trash talking about cards who's official specs have to be released and that have not yet been reviewed either.
 
BoogerBomb said:
All this smack and trash talking about cards who's official specs have to be released and that have not yet been reviewed either.

Welcome to the Video Cards forum. :p
 
Dr. X said:
Welcome to the Video Cards forum. :p

QFT

If you don't like "smack and trash talking about cards who's official specs have to be released and that have not yet been reviewed either"...then you should probably find another forum...
 
Yeah imagine how much fun it would be to speculate about 6800 and x800 specs and performance! :rolleyes:
 
BoogerBomb said:
All this smack and trash talking about cards who's official specs have to be released and that have not yet been reviewed either.


Why do you think I come to this forum.. :D
 
^eMpTy^ said:
Good lord.

ATi is holding back for one reason and one reason alone. It's not strategy, it's not marketing genius, it's their 32 pipe core on a brand new process blowing up in their face.

And G70 is NOT a refresh. The x850xtpe is almost identical to an x800xtpe. G70 will have 8 more pipelines compared to a 6800 Ultra. That fact alone puts it in next generation territory.

Now how much a technological improvement it will be is anyone's guess...but it's definitely not just a refresh like the x850s were.
Cause you know so much. All there is is speculation and I was just adding to it as are you. Yes the NVIDIA card supposedly has more pipelines and it probably will in the final product, but I am willing to bet that it is simply a repackaged NV45 core with additional pipelines. I have also heard chatter about NVIDIA's G80 that is literally almost ready so anyways.
 
trudude said:
Cause you know so much. All there is is speculation and I was just adding to it as are you. Yes the NVIDIA card supposedly has more pipelines and it probably will in the final product, but I am willing to bet that it is simply a repackaged NV45 core with additional pipelines. I have also heard chatter about NVIDIA's G80 that is literally almost ready so anyways.

...I seriously seriously seriously doubt that it'll be a repackaged NV45...

seriously
 
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