G4: Upgradeability? Worth my money? butts?

[insanarchist]

Hey, I've found what I think is a deal (not sure!) on a G4 tower ($360). It has a 450Mhz proc, 512 MB ram, and yeah, that's almost all I know about it, as I'm not sure what is/isn't important with macs. I am a mac n00b, but certainly not a PC hardware n00b by any stretch of the imagination (aka, I get 95% of the technical jargon, so if you have an answer, feel free to elaborate!).

So my questions are as follows...

A: Is it worth my money and/or what else do you/I need to know in order to figure that out?

2: What kind of upgrades can I put into this thing, as 450Mhz isn't so amazing these days?
note: I know it depends on which G4, but I'm not sure how to find out what kind it is!

C: In relation to a PC, what kind of performance should I be expecting while doing both normal, everyday tasks (web browsing, etc), and heavy-duty tasks (video editing, music recording, etc.)?


That's about it for what I would like to know. I really want to get into the mac world, as I continually find myself wanting to be able to check to see if stuff works well on a mac, as well as do some video/sound editing. I know my main PC can handle that stuff in spades, but I still feel like 1/2 a techie (or maybe 1/3, due to my linux n00bieness) for not knowing a single damned thing about macs!

 

[Black Morty Rackham]

In answer to your second question (why "a, 2, c" instead of "a, b, c"?), you can probably stick a well over 1GHz G4 in it, and since it's most likely an AGP graphics G4, you can put a relatively fast GPU in it, too.

In answer to your second question, rather poor. It really depends on what you do, though.

 

[DanK]

In answer to your second question (why "a, 2, c" instead of "a, b, c"?), you can probably stick a well over 1GHz G4 in it, and since it's most likely an AGP graphics G4, you can put a relatively fast GPU in it, too.

In answer to your second question, rather poor. It really depends on what you do, though.

Didn't you mean third question there? I just made a similar goof over in the videocard forums, it's still early this morning.

A: Is it worth my money and/or what else do you/I need to know in order to figure that out?

2: What kind of upgrades can I put into this thing, as 450Mhz isn't so amazing these days?
note: I know it depends on which G4, but I'm not sure how to find out what kind it is!

C: In relation to a PC, what kind of performance should I be expecting while doing both normal, everyday tasks (web browsing, etc), and heavy-duty tasks (video editing, music recording, etc.)?

It seems like it could be worth the money. It's only single processor, and not dual, right? Dual is where it's at as far as G4 macs are concerned (unless it's a cube). I believe you can get processor upgrades up to 1.5GHz, but IIRC those are quite expensive.

As for performance, it should be fine for typical, everyday tasks. For things like video editing, it's not going to be all that fast, but you get to use the very nice software that's only available on the mac. Be prepared to take long coffee breaks while you wait for your effects to render.

Oh, and

butts?

Are you sure you have the right forum?

 

[emorphien]

It seems like it could be worth the money. It's only single processor, and not dual, right? Dual is where it's at as far as G4 macs are concerned (unless it's a cube). I believe you can get processor upgrades up to 1.5GHz, but IIRC those are quite expensive.

Not really, because of the design of the bus and its speed limitations dual G4s don't gain much over a single.

 

[Centauri]

Not really, because of the design of the bus and its speed limitations dual G4s don't gain much over a single.

Bullshit. Haha.

Anyways, GigaDesigns has announced Dual 1.73GHz G4 upgrades, should be shipping around Christmas. $699.

I have no idear what to get:

The Dual 1.73GHz for my Power Mac tower.
The 1.7GHz for my G4 Cube.
Or the Dual 1.5GHz~ for my Cube that PowerLogix is supposed to be shipping soon.

 

[emorphien]

Bullshit. Haha.

Believe what you want there sonny.

 

[Abysmal]

Definitely go with butts.

 

[nylint]

Ok, just covering my ass here, since i'm not 100% sure.

But I believe there's two kinds of 450 mhz G4 towers out there.

The Sawtooth (which is the one you want) and the Yikes, which is the one you don't.
If this G4 is a Sawtooth it'll have a removable/replaceable Sawtooth module. I think I've seen official Apple upgrades up to 1.4ghz for those.

The Yikes has a PCI graphics card and ATA/33 only. The Sawtooth, AGP (usually a GF2MX) and ATA/66.

The only reason I'm hazy is because I only know of 350 and 400mhz Yikes G4's, but then recently I came across two running at 450. I don't know if (and i doubt that) they're OCed, so I wonder if Apple ever put out a 450 Yikes near EOL.

 

[Centauri]

Believe what you want there sonny.

Sorry, but I've been writing and optimizing Mac software for dual systems for the past three years. I guarantee that I know far more about what goes on in a dual processor system under OS X than you do, I just don't feel like debating you on it because it would be a waste of time.

 

[nylint]

i thought the bus that the dual G4's ran on was point to point like the EV6 bus in a dual implementation, and not like intel with aGTL+?

why wouldn't adding a second proc help out? i'm not calling you wrong, but I want to know more about your reasoning.

 

[SonDogg]

i was just getting ready to ask a question like this, but don't let me derail the thread if thats what im going to do. i have a powerbook, but im also interested in getting a tower to play WoW a bit better and to do my every day tasks and what not. G5's are out of my range, but i've been looking at g4 towers. i found a refurbished g4 sawtooth i belive, it has DP 1.5 ghz g4's and like 512mb of ram and a hard drive for around 1500 bucks. i dont really think this is a value to me because i would have the ram, hd, and gpu to swap out, and that would easily take me to about 2 grand. for that i can get a g5 system. is there any way to get a hold of like a barebones g4 so i can save on the listed parts, or is there even a decent place to buy mobo's and procs for mac? i havn't found a good place as logic boards are about 500 and obviously the procs are gonna be around 600. add in the case and power supply i could be close to 1500 with the rest to buy.

centauri - can you elaborate a bit for me on how a DP system would be beneficial if you get the chance? im always interested in learning more about macs so if you could get into some detail i think it would be helpful to all of us.

 

[emorphien]

i thought the bus that the dual G4's ran on was point to point like the EV6 bus in a dual implementation, and not like intel with aGTL+?

why wouldn't adding a second proc help out? i'm not calling you wrong, but I want to know more about your reasoning.

In real world applications the gains on a dual G4 aren't as great as they should be. There's no need for overanalysis (or discussing optimizations of software). The system as it is just doesn't gain enough from duals. In fact there's been a lot of cases that a single G5 has suited my needs better than a dual G4. Generally I'm talking about doing heavy image work.

I'm not the only person who will tell you this, but there's also a lot of people with theoretical situations or whimsical ideas who will tell you that nothing beats a dual G4. I'm saying that when it matters, they just don't provide the horsepower they should. You shouldn't expect to see twice the performance by going to two processors, but I expect to see more than (by my observations) an all too frequent 10% gain. The dual G4 systems that Apple put out were a nice idea but never amounted to much.

 

[Black Morty Rackham]

Would the G4 gain more if they had individual buses, or just plain higher bandwidth? YES

Does that mean the G4 doesn't gain anything from having two processors? NO

Simple as that.

In fact there's been a lot of cases that a single G5 has suited my needs better than a dual G4. Generally I'm talking about doing heavy image work.

I'd bet that's because of the G5 being generally better than the G4, rather than a bandwidth thing.

You shouldn't expect to see twice the performance by going to two processors, but I expect to see more than (by my observations) an all too frequent 10% gain. The dual G4 systems that Apple put out were a nice idea but never amounted to much.

That is just plain incorrect. The dual systems are much faster in a great deal of things. They also "feel" smoother, since even if whatever it is you're doing isn't multithreaded, at least you have a spare processor for everything else. Trust me when I say it's nice to have two processors. When you only gain 10% from dual processors, it has nothing to do with the bandwidth and everything to do with the software running.

centauri - can you elaborate a bit for me on how a DP system would be beneficial if you get the chance? im always interested in learning more about macs so if you could get into some detail i think it would be helpful to all of us.

A multi-processor Mac has all the advantages of a multi-processor x86 computers. Software must be written in such a way so they can take advantage of the power of both processors, but even if your main performance guzzler isn't, at least you have a spare engine for everything else. Almost all applications in Mac OS X are at least a little multithreaded, so you always gain a little. It feels a lot smoother, too.

 

[emorphien]

Would the G4 gain more if they had individual buses, or just plain higher bandwidth? YES

Does that mean the G4 doesn't gain anything from having two processors? NO

Simple as that.

I don't disagree with that at all. That doesn't mean I would find a G4 system something worth sinking any money in to in order to upgrade at this point. Especially given the cost of those upgrade CPUs.

It's a dated system, and while it gains in some instances with duals, the benefits aren't as great as those with individual buses or higher bandwidth (which you said so I don't know why I'm repeating that).

 

[Black Morty Rackham]

I don't disagree with that at all. That doesn't mean I would find a G4 system something worth sinking any money in to in order to upgrade at this point. Especially given the cost of those upgrade CPUs.

Well, that I can agree with. To get it up to the speed of the single 1.8GHz PowerMac G5, or even the speed of a used 2x more than 1GHz G4, you'd have to spend a lot of money. Just buy a used PowerMac that's not as ancient instead.

 

[seanmcd]

A: Is it worth my money and/or what else do you/I need to know in order to figure that out?

2: What kind of upgrades can I put into this thing, as 450Mhz isn't so amazing these days?
note: I know it depends on which G4, but I'm not sure how to find out what kind it is!

C: In relation to a PC, what kind of performance should I be expecting while doing both normal, everyday tasks (web browsing, etc), and heavy-duty tasks (video editing, music recording, etc.)?


A: Yes it is worth it
2: I put a 1.4 ghz Gigadesigns upgrade (2meg L3 cache) into mine. (Sawtooth 400mhz) and 1gig of Kingston cas2 pc100 ram, (plus a Mac Radeon 8500, 120gig Seagate 8meg cache HDD). If your motherboard is new enough, you could put a dual cpu upgrade card in it. (search around the web you will find instructions on how to figure out if it will take a dual cpu)
C: In a handful of tests I did with Photoshop CS, the Mac Sawtooth G4 @ 1.4ghz was almost exactly as fast as my 2.4ghz Athlon XP Windows XP system. With everyday use like email and web surfing - it is just as fast as well. The Panther OS is incredible. it's everything I ever wanted to do with linux except it's not free and it works a lot better.

I just took out my cpu upgrade and sold it on ebay. (I want a new game video card for my PC and eventually want to get a G5) I put the 400mhz back in. Wow, I miss the upgrade CPU already. The machine is STILL very usable though. If you have a lot of old PC100 ram laying around, and a decent fast harddrive, a G4 sawtooth like you bought makes a GREAT computer. I do email and websurfing. I also use iPhoto for cataloging and gettin photos from my digital camera. When it was all said and done, I did spend $900 bucks. that's what makes me want to get a G5. You can't beat the resale value of the mac. If I bought a new imac today - I could easily sell it down the road at a very good price (compared to a pc)