G-Sync ubiquitous?

[dopple]

How soon will we see the ROG Swift G-sync on IPS displays and other normal displays like the korean variety and the dells?

Can't wait for the price drop!

 

[Skripka]

Whenever videoprofessionals and image professionals give a shit about such things.

Or when the typical gamers can get money from their parents enough to justify that kind of a market shift.

Because that is and has been the market for IPS panels. Professionals, not kids living in their parent's basement.

 

[dopple]

i hope the uptake of this monitor is far below the sales target of ASUS. That way they will inevitably need to lower the price.

I hope the korean guys can pirate the PCB of ASUS and slap it into some of the faster IPS panels they have lying around . $400-500 for IPS G-sync would be sweet!

That would also lower the price of non Gsync korean models to around $150 even better for triple setups!

 

[evilsofa]

I'm not sure you're aware of just how niche the products you're looking for are.

There's the TV market, which has the Ford, Chevy, GM, etc. The professional monitor market which has the Ferrari, the Mercedes, the Porsche. And the gaming monitor market which has the Lotuses, the Mitsubishis, the Bugatti. And finally there's the IPS gaming monitor market which has the Artega, the Caparo, and the Gumpert.

At the moment, the IPS G-Sync monitor market is about the same as the Donkervoort car market.

 

[HeavensCloud]

I'm not sure you're aware of just how niche the products you're looking for are.

There's the TV market, which has the Ford, Chevy, GM, etc. The professional monitor market which has the Ferrari, the Mercedes, the Porsche. And the gaming monitor market which has the Lotuses, the Mitsubishis, the Bugatti. And finally there's the IPS gaming monitor market which has the Artega, the Caparo, and the Gumpert.

At the moment, the IPS G-Sync monitor market is about the same as the Donkervoort car market.

Best analogy ever. Also, I had to look up the Donkervoort, my expression was

 

[Dcode]

Whenever videoprofessionals and image professionals give a shit about such things.

Or when the typical gamers can get money from their parents enough to justify that kind of a market shift.

Because that is and has been the market for IPS panels. Professionals, not kids living in their parent's basement.

Because kids and professionals are the only people who want a high quality display....

i hope the uptake of this monitor is far below the sales target of ASUS. That way they will inevitably need to lower the price.

So low that Asus never bother to invest in making a monitor like this again? Or push for newer technologies like VA or IPS into the 144Hz 1440P realm?

I'm not sure you're aware of just how niche the products you're looking for are.

There's the TV market, which has the Ford, Chevy, GM, etc. The professional monitor market which has the Ferrari, the Mercedes, the Porsche. And the gaming monitor market which has the Lotuses, the Mitsubishis, the Bugatti. And finally there's the IPS gaming monitor market which has the Artega, the Caparo, and the Gumpert.

At the moment, the IPS G-Sync monitor market is about the same as the Donkervoort car market.

Makes sense, however if the G-Sync module can be sold for cheaper maybe companies like Eizo could slap it into the Foris IPS based product line without it having a massive impact on the price. As it stands now an extra $150 for a 60Hz 1080P IPS monitor would be pushing it.

 

[dopple]

evilsofa: eventually the tech in the niche products trickles down the general market. thats why my original question was when will this 'niche' product become 'ubiquitous'?

dcode: all i want is the 'premium' on this tech to be shaved off and tech to become widely available at the prices it might be available 2-3 years down the line!

im sure asus will be able to make up for the lack of premium in terms of larger sales... whether you make pennies off thousands of sales or a few hunded dollars from a dozen sales it makes no difference to the bottomline.

this useless elitism which delays trickling down of tech is what i want gone. Personally LCDs should have been released with this tech right from the beginning. I wonder why no one sues these tech companies for pushing half baked tech onto the general public and providing incremental patches and calling them upgrades! while the general public laps it up thinking wooim in the elite market now!

just saying you know.

 

[NCX]

Professionals, not kids living in their parent's basement.

If you think the 800$ ROG SWIFT which requires a 2k$ PC to drive properly (high fps) is marketed at children, you are delusional. Both the ROG SWIFT and high end IPS are marketed at the same audience: people with money. TN panels cost less to make, the goal is to maximize profits selling iterations, so why spend more making AHVA/IPS/PLS with G-Sync now?

 

[Bluesun311]

The Swift and anything like it will sell like hotcakes to many many enthusiasts all around the world.

The first problem is you can't just decide "ok I'll build the perfect display since Asus and friends all suck" The cost of entry into that production sector is astronomical. The best we've been able to do on this side of the world is buy panels from that side of the world and put them in a chassis with electronics from this side of the world.

The second part of this problem is that Asus and friends are, as NCX pointed out, maximizing profit. They can best do this by not giving us what we want up front. They spoon feed us the technology so that every tiny little upgrade will allow them to get a big premium.

Look at the motherboards. 4-5 different boards all with the same chipset and same model name, just small upgrades in between. The z87 formula and z97 are essentially the same board but very small differences are causing some people to redo their systems because of it. As an example, the z97 formula has all red and black on the board, while the z87 formula has white plastic retaining clips for the PCIE and RAM slots. Not much of a reason to upgrade, but I bet you more than 1 rich asshole did.

 

[Church]

Same situation with 4K. There are already big size (39" and up) 4K screens (and relatively cheap, check up chinese 4K prices), there are boards that allow DP SST 4K@60hz. But what we have on market? Average priced TN 24-28" screens that by all accounts except resolution are worse then cheaper normal monitors, and OLED 31.5" that cost arm and leg. Certainly vendors wish to game extra-profit game from small iterations longer, even if tech is already there and not THAT expensive. +few inches each year, -hundred or two from price. They are out there to make money, not save the world. We as consumers have no saying in that. Only thing that can change something - some vendor deciding to exploit niche and releasing product that we actually want and at lesser price level then average industry-wide, only then other vendors with haste will release their products to counter that & will drop insane pricing. (again as example what Seiki 4K did to average prices of 1st gen 4K TVs at the beginning costing $10-20K).

 

[Skripka]

Because kids and professionals are the only people who want a high quality display....

No they're not the only ones wanting a high quality monitor. They're the only people who appreciate what it is...and more importantly are willing to pay for it.

Just like when building a house. EVERYONE wants to build a house that will last forever, fitted out with nice everything....most people see the price-tag and then promptly decide that El Cheapo is good enough.

If you think the 800$ ROG SWIFT which requires a 2k$ PC to drive properly (high fps) is marketed at children, you are delusional.

Who in the hell do you thing this "Republic of Gamers" brand is marketed for? How about childish gun-shaped-heatsinks on Gigabyte's "Assassin" and "Killer" motherboards? Speaking of who do you think motherboards marketed with names like "Assassin" and "Killer" are aimed at?

Kids who get their parents to spend money.

Either that or the billion-dollar corporations of the computer world know/have-researched or suspect there are tons of horny teenagers trapped in 30 and 40-something bodies enough to sustain a market for this gear. Just about the only computer part company not consistently resorting to childish branding, colored heatsinks, loud sticker labeling, and strings of Xs/Zs in their product name, and so on---is Intel.


My point was and is that aside from us elite folks on [H]...there's no market for G-Sync and IPS in one monitor IRL. The only real remotely comprehensive hardware survey of gamers (people who actually have a use for this shit) is the Steam Hardware Survey. Look at it. And see exactly how tiny the market for this top-end gaming gear is, and what most people are forced to run due to budgets.

 

[Church]

Intel with skulls on heatsinks of it's own enthusiast motherboards is in same train.

 

[Skripka]

Intel with skulls on heatsinks of it's own enthusiast motherboards is in same train.

LOL, fair point. Haven't looked at motherboards in forever and hadn't seen that one.

 

[CHANG3D]

Until we get amoled IPS displays... Personally I'm hoping for a VA panel with G-Sync or ActiveSync for gaming first.

@NCX isn't the advantage of g-sync is not needing a video card solution that drives over 144 fps? So why are you talking about needing $2K worth of graphic cards? At that point, any monitor with high Hz, low input lag, and ULMB/Lightboost2 would be great for you. G-Sync is simply not necessary.

 

[NCX]

Who in the hell do you thing this "Republic of Gamers" brand is marketed for?

Kids who get their parents to spend money.

Not typical low-middle class teenagers pestering their parents for ROG products. ROG is marketed at people with disposable income. I doubt there are many teens with 2,000$ gaming PC's.

@NCX isn't the advantage of g-sync is not needing a video card solution that drives over 144 fps? So why are you talking about needing $2K worth of graphic cards? At that point, any monitor with high Hz, low input lag, and ULMB/Lightboost2 would be great for you. G-Sync is simply not necessary.

I highly doubt there are tons of gamers with budget PC's who will spend more than half the amount they paid for their slow PC on 500$+ monitors with G-Sync. A 2k$ PC is required to run games at high frame rates+settings on a 1440p monitor with G-Sync, and even more for a 4k monitor.

 

[Bluesun311]

I've been watching the shop I'm having do my machine right now and their target end user is actually ex military and cops. This is a military town and bf4 Cs:go games are what largely drive the industry. These guys may be kids at heart but they work hard and they like to play hard.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

This thread makes it sound like only kids play games...

I remember seeing some poll in for example UT forums showing there's suprisingly many 50+ yo playing even. In the past gaming has only been a kids-thing since gaming wasn't something that was possible when they were kids. However times are changing, the kids who grew up with gaming are likely to continue gaming fairly long. Heck, even my 43 yo boss is playing Clash of Clans on his phone and several games at home whenever he finds the time.

I assume a lot of consumers of this ROG Swift is in the age 25 - 35 too that are on a daily income.

 

[runs2far]

G-sync will die.
We get adaptive sync as part of DisplayPort 1.2a, no need for G-sync any more, any standard Displayport 1.2a monitor will be able to vary the refresh rate.

 

[faugusztin]

As runs2far said, G-Sync is already a dead technology because FreeSync became part of the DisplayPort specification.

 

[dopple]

run2far, fauguzstin : that is great news!

so a simple firmware update to the existing displayports should be enough to get this tech without any hardware changes ?

and use the displayport to dvi converter to run the existing 27" korean monitors with freesync right?

 

[Shogon]

Sadly the AMD 280X-265 cards are not supported for dynamic refresh spec. Hopefully none of you have those cards.

Also I don't understand the point in saying GSYNC is dead even though it is here and now in the wild and no matter what monitor manufactures will charge you the consumer extra for a proper dynamic refresh system with FreeSync just like they do with the GSYNC unit.

Both of these techs are here to stay, they have nowhere to go but up.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

run2far, fauguzstin : that is great news!

so a simple firmware update to the existing displayports should be enough to get this tech without any hardware changes ?

and use the displayport to dvi converter to run the existing 27" korean monitors with freesync right?

No. The Adaptive sync will be an optional feature of the DP 1.2a standard. It means the monitors will have to support that standard too which doesn't apply to existing products. Overclockable IPS displays with Adaptive Sync sounds like a neat thing that I look forward to.

 

[LigTasm]

run2far, fauguzstin : that is great news!

so a simple firmware update to the existing displayports should be enough to get this tech without any hardware changes ?

and use the displayport to dvi converter to run the existing 27" korean monitors with freesync right?

Since it isn't a required part of the standard nor is it supported by the entire AMD performance product line like Gsync is, the answer is no.

 

[faugusztin]

Also I don't understand the point in saying GSYNC is dead even though it is here and now in the wild and no matter what monitor manufactures will charge you the consumer extra for a proper dynamic refresh system with FreeSync just like they do with the GSYNC unit.

Because finances. You can sell Gsync monitors only to NVIDIA card owners. You will be able to sell Freesync monitors to everyone (sure, NVIDIA will take their time, but in the end they will support it). Gsync module costs money, Freesync in theory shouldn't require any extra parts at the display side.

And as we learned over time, usually technology cheaper to manufacture wins.

 

[wonderfield]

Who in the hell do you thing this "Republic of Gamers" brand is marketed for? How about childish gun-shaped-heatsinks on Gigabyte's "Assassin" and "Killer" motherboards? Speaking of who do you think motherboards marketed with names like "Assassin" and "Killer" are aimed at?

Asian adult males, primarily. Recall that ASUS and Gigabyte are Taiwanese hardware vendors.

 

[Armenius]

run2far, fauguzstin : that is great news!

so a simple firmware update to the existing displayports should be enough to get this tech without any hardware changes ?

and use the displayport to dvi converter to run the existing 27" korean monitors with freesync right?

The firmware update would have to come from the monitor manufacturer. Why would the manufacturer spend money on developing a firmware update if they can just sell you a new monitor? I think there will initially be markups on Freesync-enabled monitors similar to the GSync cost just to take advantage of people.

 

[Bluesun311]

I'd be surprised to see any *announcements* for Freesync enabled displays in 2014. We are unlikely to get a taste til late 2015. The monitor manufacturers come around slowly about these things--they don't want to stop the presses to retool unless it is going to be a sure thing. Once they see the Swift's numbers, the low return rates, the profit margin, then they will start working on freesync. AMD is so backwards giving it away for free.

More speculation: Nvidia will continue to market G-sync as separate from Freesync and they will likely continue to work on "Lightboost" strobing technology to make it stick. The ROG Swifts strobing implementation is far from ideal, but AMD has no proprietary answer to ULBM and the Eizo FG2421/Benq z series aren't cutting it for everyone. The bubble is about to burst on 1440p gaming displays. We all want them, lots of people have money to pay for them. Let's just wait and see what kind of premium people pay for this first legitimate 1440p 120Hz+ display.

 

[CHANG3D]

I highly doubt there are tons of gamers with budget PC's who will spend more than half the amount they paid for their slow PC on 500$+ monitors with G-Sync. A 2k$ PC is required to run games at high frame rates+settings on a 1440p monitor with G-Sync, and even more for a 4k monitor.

I think the point is pair this, a 1440p monitor, with a single 780 Ti. You don't need to buy a second 780 Ti, but spend a little extra (like $200 extra, assuming a comparable 27" 1440p TN monitor 8bit colors, fast response time and refresh rate is ~$600) on a monitor instead, and the single 780 Ti would still look good with G-Sync when the frame per second goes to 80. If you are already pushing more than 144 fps in every single game, why would you need G-Sync over a monitor with the same response time and refresh rate like the BenQ BL2710PT (which has worse colors, etc, and is $600)?

BTW, I do understand your position, but I don't think you could draw the line on this monitor is only for those with $2K worth of graphics. Reason is that I'm selfishly aware that I have a mITX mobo, so I can only do a single card solution for LAN party purposes. I have weekly lan parties with folks, and sometimes more with the local Makers. And I am considering this monitor, but I'm also talking myself out of it.

 

[Shogon]

Because finances. You can sell Gsync monitors only to NVIDIA card owners. You will be able to sell Freesync monitors to everyone (sure, NVIDIA will take their time, but in the end they will support it). Gsync module costs money, Freesync in theory shouldn't require any extra parts at the display side.

And as we learned over time, usually technology cheaper to manufacture wins.

Also as we've learned AMD can have deceptive announcements regarding there tech, and the way they present them. If you believe for a minute a monitor manufacturer isn't going to charge you extra for this type of tech, well, I'll believe it when I see it.

Everything you said can be applied to AMD as well, thing is they have no finances to do this themselves, so they are going to ask the monitor makers to do so, at there cost. Who's going to receive that extra price increase due to R&D? Oh right, you and me.. the consumer. FreeSync won't be free, you're going to need a proper unit of some kind to handle the dynamic refresh just like GSYNC. Well, not those of you with AMD 265's-280X's as those are excluded from FreeSync, where as GSYNC can be supported from everything above a 650ti.

They both cost money to implement, AMD chose one way to do it and Nvidia chose there own. Nvidia is making money on this "craze" early because AMD has nothing to show for it and it's going to take a while before they get something in the field. It took Nvidia a while to get GSYNC running so I imagine the same for a FreeSync like module with no sign of delay.

When it does though at least both sides will have a dynamic refresh based monitor to enjoy, something we should of had years ago. Also, I highly doubt Nvidia will support FreeSync when they already have GSYNC, just like they have no reason to support Mantle when they have Direct X.

 

[faugusztin]

Also as we've learned AMD can have deceptive announcements regarding there tech, and the way they present them. If you believe for a minute a monitor manufacturer isn't going to charge you extra for this type of tech, well, I'll believe it when I see it.

The point is not how much it is going to cost YOU, but how much is it going to cost the manufacturer. FreeSync is a free thing to put on the box and spec sheet. Gsync increases costs to the manufacturer.

 

[dan87]

Since it isn't a required part of the standard nor is it supported by the entire AMD performance product line like Gsync is, the answer is no.

This is like HDMI 1.4a including the ethernet channel. Just because it is a part of the spec doesn't mean OEM's will add it to products. There's like almost zero who have added ethernet to their HDMI enabled products.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/

 

[Godmachine]

This is like HDMI 1.4a including the ethernet channel. Just because it is a part of the spec doesn't mean OEM's will add it to products. There's like almost zero who have added ethernet to their HDMI enabled products.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/

Yep. If you are waiting for AMD to come and rescue you from the extra cost of G-Sync then you are going to be in for a LONG wait...

Again Freesync is an elective standard not required and that's a big difference. Its also important to note that G-Sync has dedicated hardware so input latency is as low as possible while Freesync will be offloading to the GPU which will likely bring input latency along with it and unfortunately that will negate one of the biggest benefits of having a technology like G-sync/Freesync.

Since we have no real world samples to test we have no idea what the real world input latency will be when Freesync is enabled.

If you hate V-sync tearing and want a solution then G-sync is that solution. It sucks to pay more but for now Nvidia is the only game in town..

 

[dopple]

Godmachine: if AMD doesn't have a proprietary tech to compete with GSync then isn't it logical that it will adopt the VESA Free-sync right away. This way AMD can cut into the premium being charged for GSync at the very least.

The enthusiasm this tech has raised doesn't give me too many reasons to be pessimistic about its wide availability pretty soon.

Sometimes to maximise profitability and ensure viability in the long term companies give away freebies in the short term.

 

[NCX]

I think the point is pair this, a 1440p monitor, with a single 780 Ti.

A 780 ti costs 700$, and the recommended PC components to go with a 780 ti, including a gaming keyboard and mouse easily adds another 1000$ to the total. I doubt there are many gtx 780 ti owners with 400-500$ PC's (excluding keyboard and mouse).

BTW, I do understand your position, but I don't think you could draw the line on this monitor is only for those with $2K worth of graphics.

I think you missed my point and your post is confusing. A typical teen does no get their parents to buy them 2000$ PC's with ROG products like Skripa claimed.

The #1 reason TN's with G-Sync are being released first is because manufacturers know they can save money by selling us iterations with cheaper-to-produce TN panels for a few more years.

 

[runs2far]

OK, maybe I should explain why I think G-sync will die.

Small closed standards that require specific hardware and generally carry added expenses, can appear and fulfil the market before the slow standard adoption manages to deliver the same feature set at a lower cost, mostly due to higher production volume.
Once the standard is in place and adopted by the manufacturers, the closed standards fade away.
In the end, there will be a bunch of early adopters that have enjoyed a technology before the rest, and they have paid the early adopter price.

Adaptive refresh rate is already a part of many notebooks, it's just not been relevant for desktop monitors until Nvidia brought it up, and it's only become part of a standard that most monitors do not comply with yet.
Unfortunately monitor technology moves very slowly, mostly because we do not buy a new monitor every year and added features rarely cause a big move in the monitor market.

Right now 4K gets all the buzz talk, maybe once the 4K talk dies down a little bit we'll hear about this again.
Adaptive refresh could be a way to sway people towards a specific 4K monitor.
Don't have the GPU for consistent 60 Hz? That's OK, this monitor makes even 40 Hz look fluid.

If you want adaptive refresh rate now, G-sync is the choice. In 5 years time adaptive refresh rate is probably standard on every monitor except the crappiest Best Buy stuff.

Wow, maybe AMD want to try and be proprietary to.
http://www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/AMD-Releases-FreeSync-Information-FAQ

 

[Bluesun311]

Let me be more clear. Here's why I think G-sync won't die:

Even if Freesync does become widely available because it's so cheap and easy to implement... manufacturers will still probably want ulbm/NV3d on their ultra high end gaming monitors. On those monitors, might as well go ahead and slap an Nvidia logo on there, because AMD has nothing to offer. Lightboost is going to be more important as we move forward and more and more people do have the gpu power to take advantage of the glory that is zero motion blur (inb4 we find out it makes people grow another ass about 10 years later) and since FreeSync is apparently a brand the other brand is Gsync. Honestly whichever has less input lag will win technically but not necessarily get the DVD award. They are very unlikely to be exactly equal and I'd be pretty surprised if Gsync wasn't faster.

 

[Godmachine]

Let me be more clear. Here's why I think G-sync won't die:

Even if Freesync does become widely available because it's so cheap and easy to implement... manufacturers will still probably want ulbm/NV3d on their ultra high end gaming monitors. On those monitors, might as well go ahead and slap an Nvidia logo on there, because AMD has nothing to offer. Lightboost is going to be more important as we move forward and more and more people do have the gpu power to take advantage of the glory that is zero motion blur (inb4 we find out it makes people grow another ass about 10 years later) and since FreeSync is apparently a brand the other brand is Gsync. Honestly whichever has less input lag will win technically but not necessarily get the DVD award. They are very unlikely to be exactly equal and I'd be pretty surprised if Gsync wasn't faster.

G-sync will be faster because it has its own dedicated hardware to deal with the entire method. Offloading the problem onto dedicated hardware is one of the biggest reasons G-sync is practically flawless. Every game I've used G-sync in works perfectly until the technology doesn't offer a benefit (anything below 30 fps) and there are no weird driver bugs or anything to deal with. You don't even have to configure anything its all automated from the moment you plug in your G-sync enabled monitor. Its one of the most painless upgrades I've made to my gaming rig in terms of usage and since everyone else will have it automatically installed they don't even have to deal with the DIY route (although that was also.. painless and took 20 minutes to accomplish).

Freesync will be offloaded entirely onto the GPU so driver bugs will become much more of a concern and performance as well will be another concern. I realize everyone has a differing opinion on who has better drivers but in my personal experience AMD drivers downright suck. I have had more problems with them then Nvidia by far. So stability becomes another concern. There are some serious advantages to going with dedicated hardware. What kind of PC gamer is willing to spend $800 on a 1440p 144hz monitor but whines about the extra $100 of that total (no doubt will be dropping in price) for the extra G-sync required hardware?

Considering AMD has been pretty silent on Freesync in general and there won't even be any "gaming" centered displays that support it until 2015 Nvidia meanwhile will be able to develop/capture/hold the market for this capability. And yes its also possible AMD will win in the end and maybe they could have it implemented well enough to run near flawlessly but right now that's a lot of question marks..

The fact that ULBM works so well on the ASUS ROG that those who have the monitor report the PQ hit is entirely minor solves one of the biggest problems with that tech. Being able to help cope with motion clarity to the point that it even comes close to CRT quality is finally the step we've needed. So that's another technology AMD has zero participation in that Nvidia has locked down..

 

[Outbreaker]

G-sync will die out quickly as soon as DisplayPort 1.3 is available on Graphic Cards and Monitors, it's only a matter of time.

 

[Church]

-pesimist mode ON-
If freesync wasn't mandatory for DP 1.2a spec conformity, it might be not mandatory for 1.3 aswell. I wouldn't RELY on it at least.

 

[Outbreaker]

DisplayPort 1.3 needs to be finalized first before the manufacturers can implement it.
I hope DisplayPort 1.3 makes it into the new Graphic Cards that are coming out at the end of this year. If not then i'm sure AMD will add DisplayPort 1.2a and Nvidia will scam people out of their money with G-sync till all Graphic Cards have DisplayPort 1.3, like AMD dose it with Mantle till the Graphic Cards have OpenGL 4.4 and DirectX 12 and then Mantle it's absolute like G-sync.