Full Range

T

Tosicc

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
265
Hey HF

I've run Rokit 5's & a 10" sub with awesome results... At my new place I had to get rid of the sub and I don't the rokits are suitable for my casual use as they are too "true" -- I'd like some bass.

I'm looking into what powered monitors might have a fuller sound? I was thinking maybe AV40s? Smaller the better, but I need quality.

Thanks in advance!
 
if you have a guitar center nearby they have a bunch of studio monitors set up (generally)

personally i though the Tannoy Reveal 501A monitors I listented to there are fantastic (about $179 each)
 
Get a pair of my babies :cool:.

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The question is kind of confusing.. you had to get rid of the sub due to space limitations? Full range speakers will typically be large, especially compared to the Rokits. the AV40's have even smaller drivers (4.5") than your rokits so I don't think they would be a good option for more bass. If you like the sound of the rokits perhaps consider upgrading to the Rokit 6 or 8? That would give you more bass in a smaller footprint, but it still won't be the same as a dedicated sub like your Rokit 10
 
Tekara said:
If that does prove to be the case, the best advice would be for him to go with headphones.

Physics just isn't with him in getting more bass without a subwoofer while downsizing speakers.
Click to expand...

Right. Full range seems to also be a term open to interpretation.
 
If neighbors are the concern here (making the same assumption as some above), I often recommend trying the Auralex Subdude:
http://www.amazon.com/Auralex-SUBDUDE-HD-Isolation-Dampening/dp/B003EM17IK/

It does a good job at decoupling your sub from the structure, which in apartments is usually what contributes to noise pollution the most at typical (for a shared space) volumes. An isolation platform will also help reduce distortion, and will allow for a lower listening volume.

Lastly, eliminating the sub from your system can sometimes do more harm than good in apartment or shared space settings. By definition, a sub will isolate the lower frequencies from your main speakers. This allows you to control the volumes of each independently. Likewise, your main speakers will be spared from having to produce frequencies outside of their intended range, potentially eliminating distortion or "boominess". In a quiet listening environment, eliminating those two things is crucial, else you may find yourself increasing your listening volume to hear dialogue and details.

(Adding a center channel, if an option, also helps to alleviate the above, but this seems outside of what you want to do so I left it out.)

Now, you did say the "smaller the better" so if this is a space issue, things become more difficult. As others have said, true full range requires, at the very least, space.
 
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M-Audio AV40 is not going to perform any better than your KRK Rokit 5. The bass reflex design, paired with the efficient amp and high tension glass-aramid drivers makes it so they're already doing quite a bit to fake the low-end -- all the way down to the high-50s, at lower SPL. When the SPL exceeds the cabinet volume, there will be some volume displacement issues on the cabinet port causing some delay (or echo) between notes -- which is what creates the flabby/one note bass on a lot of speaker designs. You can skirt around the issue either by using a symmetrical port system and baffle to accommodate the additional air movement, or with a lot of cabinet dampening material. Both have pros and cons, but for the scope of this reply I don't think it matters.

If you're really looking to keep the footprint modest (on your desk or whatever) I'd suggest something like a pair of JBL LSR2325P, ADAM A7X, or Event 20/20 BAS (in that order.) Otherwise, move to Fostex PM2 MKII, or KRK Rokit RP8 G2. With an untreated room of adequate size, most of these suggestions should get you into the mid 40Hz, low 50Hz range at modest levels. Aside from the JBL which has a unique long excursion and a design based around it, you're pretty much dealing with an 8" woofer or so to present anything below 55Hz at -3dB or better in the real world. Good luck!
 
You could get one of those bass shakers... won't produce any bass but you'll get the vibration feeling.

Other than that replacing a sub with a full range speaker (should have at least an 8" woofer to be full range)... Kind of the same thing. Even 6.5" woofers won't give you that much in the way of bass.
 
B00nie said:
Partly true. He can get a model with a DSP. For example this: http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/dspeaker-servo-300pro.shtml

Packs a surprising punch for the size.
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Using DSP for room-mode correction is never as good as properly bass trapping and managing reflection points at the listeners position, but it is indeed better than nothing. On the cheap, you can use something like KRK Ergo to get that sort of "Anti" mode effect these speakers have. Using DSP as a crossover, is a more novel thing and has been seen in a lot of active monitors from the likes of JBL, Yamaha, Genelec, K&H and Dynaudio. As far as speaker performance of acoustic suspension designs go, they really act the same (in physics) as a sock stuffed ported design, that is to say -- requiring more damping material due to it being aperiodic in operation. While this makes for good transients in the kick-bass range, it deeply cuts into any of the sub-bass response as standing waves cancel each other out with no exit in the enclosure. Another wide usage in the industry of active DSP speaker technology can be seen in iPod accessories, specifically almost all of the docks with speaker/amp combinations that are more than $130 MSRP. In any event, $3500 for speakers without published measurements (they have graphics, smoothed out, I don't see numbers) makes that DSpeaker Servo 300 set off my snake oil alarm. I'm sure they sound nice, but I've heard the Meridian DSP subwoofer and was not really that impressed, especially given the price when compared to say JL Audio Fathom F-112 with proper time domain placement outperforms it by at least 10Hz sustained, and can play things like the shuttle launch at live performance levels without distortion.

You can't beat physics, you can only play parlor tricks in it's environment to shape it a little.
 
These speakers I referred to are not only room corrected with the DSP, they have an active servo bass which extends the bass output quite a lot for speaker size. I've heard these things at an expo and it's hard to believe the sound comes from such small boxes.

You're right that room acoustics are essential - but most people do not want to stuff the house full of padding and resonators. I chose the Electrostatic panel way to handle the room, this DSP stuff comes pretty nicely after that.

Enjoy the Music.com show report

"It played far better at the extremes than such a small box has a right to play."
"When I think back to the complexity and cost of other DSP room correction systems I have heard in the past (some of them with surround sound), this approach just blows them away."
"You've got my first Best Technology show award."
"Where have they been hiding this stuff?"

Stereophile show report

"I noted a surprisingly effortless sound, with bold, deep bass."
Click to expand...

Just look at the step response - pretty impressive for a traditional box speaker!

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Just for comparison, this is the step response of a regular active speaker:

Reference_step.png
 
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Another model I forgot to mention was Dynaudio BM5A MKII, that'll have sufficient bass to feel it subtly in your chest in near field listening position. Then of course there is the discontinued Samson Rubicon R6A that looks to be still available from at least one vendor on the Internet -- that too, is a good speaker that doesn't require a subwoofer, and a pair costs less than most of the other recommendations I've given.
 
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http://emotivapro.com/products/powered_monitors/stealth8.php

Emotiva Pro Stealth 8


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Powered Studio Monitor | $749 (each)

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Frequency Response
  • 30 Hz to 23 kHz + / -1.75 dB
  • 28 Hz to 32 kHz +0 / -6 dB

Input Connectors
  • One balanced combination connector (accepts a balanced XLR, balanced 1/4", or unbalanced 1/4" connector)

Bass Alignment
  • Low-diffraction rear-oriented slot-loaded port

Power Source
  • 120 VAC 50/60 Hz +/- 10% or
  • 230 VAC 50/60 Hz +/- 10%
  • IEC standard removable power cord

Size (each)
  • 16.5" high x 12" wide x 15" deep (420 mm x 305 mm x 380 mm)

Weight (net):
  • 41.5 pounds (19 kg)

Driver Complement
  • One 60 x 32 mm airmotiv™ high-frequency transducer
  • One 205 mm (8 inch) airmotiv™ low-frequency transducer

Amplification
  • High-frequency amplifier:
  • 200 watts RMS
  • Low-frequency amplifier:
  • 200 watts RMS

Adjustments and Calibrations
  • Gain adjustment:
  • nominal +/- 6 dB
  • Bass Tilt adjustment:
  • -2 dB, -4 dB, -6 dB at 40 Hz (starting at 1250 Hz), or fully disable low-frequency driver
  • Bass Roll Off adjustment:
  • -2 dB, -4 dB, -6 dB, or -8 dB at 40 Hz (starting at 250 Hz)
  • Treble Tilt adjustment:
  • +1 dB, -1 dB, -2 dB (above 3 kHz), or fully disable high-frequency driver

Maximum Acoustic Output (pair, short term)
  • 115 dB SPL (sine wave, @ 1 meter, on axis, radiating into half space)
  • 121 dB SPL (sine wave, @ 0.5 meter, on axis, radiating into half space)

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Those monitors are meant for studios i.e. they require studio acoustics. No waveguides on tweeters would suggest something like that anyway. At home you'll want controlled directivity.
 
http://emotivapro.com/products/powered_monitors/airmotiv6.php

Emotiva Pro Airmotiv 6

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Powered Studio Monitor | was: $699 | now: $579 (pair)!

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Frequency Response
■ 43 Hz to 23 kHz +/- 1.7 dB
■ 40 Hz to 26 kHz +0 / -6 dB

Input Connectors
■ One single ended (RCA)
■ One professional balanced (XLR)

Bass Alignment
■ Single rear-oriented port (slot loaded)

Power Source
■ 120 VAC 50/60 Hz +/- 10% or
230 VAC 50/60 Hz +/- 10%
■ IEC standard removable power cord

Size (each)
■ 340 mm high x 214 mm wide x 286 mm deep
(13.4" high x 8.4" wide x 11.3" deep)

Size (pair, packaged)
■ 415 mm long x 340 mm wide x 485 mm high
(16.3" high x 13.4" wide x 19.1" high)

Weight (net):
■ 24.25 lbs. (11 kg) each

Weight (packaged):
■ 29.5 lbs. (13.4 kg) each

Driver Complement
■ One 32 x 60 mm airmotiv high-frequency folded-ribbon transducer
■ One 165 mm (6.5 inch) airmotiv low-frequency transducer with Curv® polypropolene composite cone structure

Amplification
■ Total amplifier power:
210 watts RMS

■ High-frequency amplifier:
100 watts RMS; S/N > 100 dB; THD+N < 0.05% @ 20W, 10 kHz

&#9632; Low-frequency amplifier:
110 watts RMS; S/N > 100 dB; THD+N < 0.05% @ 100W, 100 Hz

Adjustments and Calibrations
&#9632; High frequency tilt control:
4 kHz hinge frequency; 0 (calibrated), +2 dB, -2 dB @ 20 kHz

&#9632; Low frequency shelving control:
150 Hz turnover frequency; 0 (calibrated), -2 dB, -4 dB @ 20 Hz

&#9632; HF gain, LF gain, and overall gain calibrated to standard within 1.0 dB

Crossover
&#9632; Precision multi-pole phase compensated fully active crossover
&#9632; Crossover frequency: 2500 Hz

Mounting
&#9632; The airmotiv 6 has mounting points on the bottom for use with our (optional) mounting bracket.
 
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the Emotiva airmotiv 6 is a good start - you're really looking for the bass extension, and the emotiva's have it (43hz @ +/-1.7db) However, they're still not going to get you into subwoofer territory (IE 30hz).

I have a pair of monitor audio RX2's which hit 40hz +/-3db, but i think the cheaper bx2's or MR2's have similar (42-45hz) extension at considerably lower prices.

The Wharfdale Diamond 10.2's are can hit 40hz and are cheaper than the RX2's as well.

If you have a bit of DIY inclination - the Dayton BR1 hits 43hz for $160

To get sub 40hz in a monitor or bookshelf type speaker usually requires a cone at least 8 inches or more. However there are tricks you can pull - check out the totem mani 2 signatures which uses dual 6.5" dynaudio cones in an isobaric config to hit 29hz in a bookshelf (of course they cost an arm and a leg though)

Google might point you towards definitive technology bookshelf speakers. Do not be fooled. They advertise incredible bass response but they use +/-10 or 15db or something, which is completely misleading. You want +/-3db or less

Everything mentioned here except the airmotiv's require a separate amp btw
 
Bass wise the DSP300 is going to beat all of the other options suggested easily.
 
B00nie said:
Bass wise the DSP300 is going to beat all of the other options suggested easily.
Click to expand...

According to the frequency response chart in the manual, it has a response of about 40Hz - 20+KHz +/- 3dB, with a response of about -9dB at 30Hz. The Emotiva compares favorably down to 40Hz. The DSP300 wins after that, with a 6dB better response at 30Hz. But nothing this size is going to provide enough bass for me at least.
 
Regading the DIY route. I am currently looking for a HiFi desktop PC speaker and I came across the "full-range driver" variety. This is one of the manufacturers: http://www.markaudio.com/

I plan to use a pair of their drivers in plywood cabinets. The cabinets will be of a pentagon or hexagon shape to fit on my PC corner desk. Total budget will be around $150.

Does anyone have experience with such stuff?
 
My audio engine A5's have a great amount of bass. I did add a PSW10 sub but I don't think they really need it.
 
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