Flat Panels for Retro Emulation

BlackGuyRX

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I'm looking for a good, fast LCD monitor for retro emulation.

While I'd like to get my hands on a CRT monitor, I'm very picky about what I'm looking for and after months of searching around and coming up empty handed, I've pretty much decided to cut my losses and go the flat panel route for the time being. Would anyone here know of some good recommendations of flat panel PC monitors with 90 degree rotation for TATE (vertical shmups), little to no lag, has support for VGA (Dreamcast via VGA box), and can manually match the wacky refresh rates for arcade games like Mortal Kombat and R-Type @ 55hz & ?

I'd like to go the G-Sync & FreeSync route, but both options are too expensive for me to afford right now.

The best I saw so far were LCDs specifically designed for arcade monitors, but they're only available as panels, lack stands and cost several hundred dollars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-CJvpBLzHQ
 
I personally like the old Dell 19" 4:3 flat panels. The scaler in them is very good unlike a lot of other monitors where if you run at non-native resolution it makes everything super blurry.

They have both VGA and DVI in, you can use whatever Dell flat panel stand on them as the Dell monitors all use a standardized stand mount on them. You can get one that have height, tilt, and rotation, as well as the monitor rotating 90 for portrait instead of landscape view (or for vertical shmups)

The model number is 1908FPc.
 
I personally like the old Dell 19" 4:3 flat panels. The scaler in them is very good unlike a lot of other monitors where if you run at non-native resolution it makes everything super blurry.

They have both VGA and DVI in, you can use whatever Dell flat panel stand on them as the Dell monitors all use a standardized stand mount on them. You can get one that have height, tilt, and rotation, as well as the monitor rotating 90 for portrait instead of landscape view (or for vertical shmups)

The model number is 1908FPc.

How's the input lag? Good for twitchy action games and even rhythm stuff like Beatmania?
 
How's the input lag? Good for twitchy action games and even rhythm stuff like Beatmania?

I haven't hooked up my Dreamcast to it in quite a while. I'll have to test when I get home. From what I remember, it never really had any noticeable input lag from what I could tell and I played mostly action games on it.
 
Those replacement 'arcade' lcd monitors like the Vizion or Makvision 26" are nothing more than overpriced low grade 1366x768 panels in the nude, convenient for people who want to put a lcd in their arcade cabinet.
Those happen to have an internal scaler with features similar to the cheapo GBS-8220 or Wei-Ya equivalent, which both suck, but are enough for being marketed as 'multi-sync'.

Very poor choice, same with any 5:4 monitor, the resolution isn't right to boot, you need more pixels for your purpose (for instance if you intend to apply fake/simulated scanlines, the higher the resolution, the better, and 768p just isn't enough, trust me)

You have to understand there's no difference between a pc lcd monitor and those, actually most name brand standard 1080p IPS and AMVA monitors currently on the market are much better performers and significantly cheaper than those obsolete turds sold as 'arcade parts'.

A couple examples of the best performing and affordable 1080p monitors atm;

IPS: LG all the way.
LG 27MP67VQ (or HQ version but it lacks DVI) -> no rotating stand but you can buy a VESA one separately.
Other 'MP' series LG monitors like i.e. cheaper 27MP37VQ perform the same but with maybe slightly inferior color performance, otherwise it's mostly a matter of features and options.
The 'commercial' model 27MB65PY comes with a rotating stand but lacks a straight HDMI input (you can use a simple HDMI>DVI converter though).
All with a display lag way under 1 frame.

AMVA: Iiyama Prolite XB2783HSU-B1 -> best performing AMVA 1080p monitor, comes with a rotating stand.
The only other alternative with stand would be the BenQ BL2700HT, not reviewed but expected to perform just like the Iiyama.
The former has a lag way under 1 frame, the latter should as well.

Non-standard refresh rate games like those of old Irem, Seibu, Konami hardwares (R-Type, Raiden, Xexex, etc) will never display right or without a bit of judder/stutter without using some form of frame buffering or forced synchronization.

In emulators this translates by forced v-sync which is smooth but might speed-up the games, or one form of buffering like triple buffering in MAME.
You can also let your GPU handle the vertical syncing and force only 1 frame of buffering in the control panel (most ATI/AMD & nVidia cards can do that).
RetroArch features a thing called 'Hard GPU Sync' that supposedly is a superior solution for smooth syncing and lower lag, but in my experience it doesn't always work well.

Without emulators and using real hardware you'll need an external scaler, but few are capable of handling stuff like the Irem and Seibu pcb's.
The older Micomsoft XRGB (XRGB-1, XRGB-2) can, and the quality is pretty good for what it is and completely lagless, but they're kind of hard to find and possibly expensive.
The cheapo GBS-8220 like the one sold on jammaboards is what most people use, supposedly the one they sell is an updated version with included modelines for stuff like Irem and Seibu, but I'm not 100% sure about that. Lag is about 2 frames.
Arcadeforge sell a comlplete kit with included scart input and sync switching, a bit expensive too though.

Anyway, don't dream about obscure or forgotten flat panels that would be perfect or better for 'retro' as this is simply bullshit; there are none. Misinformed people on some 'uneducated' forums like to tell themselves stories and share their unfortunate recently acquired 'knowledge', pushing other to buy crap.
The only good thing you can do is get the best performing panel (IPS or VA is you choice) among those that have been extensively tested (we know several) and either use them with a good pc and proper emulators, or the few rare and expensive scalers that don't suck (XRGB, DVDO, etc).

My personal preferences goes to higher resolutions like 1440p and 4K + advanced crt shaders like crt-royale (though not user-friendly).
But a good 1080p monitor with an average pc or a decent scaler can already be plenty awesome for retro goodness.
Again just don't buy any of those ridiculous 'arcade' lcd's that are just marketing lies, nor any other lower resolution or wrong aspect ratio displays.

Well, regarding ratio there are some great 16:10 that can do a fantastic job though, like the Asus PB248Q or VS24AHL if those are available in your area.
Some people consider those the middle ground for gaming/retro and everything else.
 
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Those replacement 'arcade' lcd monitors like the Vizion or Makvision 26" are nothing more than overpriced low grade 1366x768 panels in the nude, convenient for people who want to put a lcd in their arcade cabinet.
Those happen to have an internal scaler with features similar to the cheapo GBS-8220 or Wei-Ya equivalent, which both suck, but are enough for being marketed as 'multi-sync'.

Very poor choice, same with any 5:4 monitor, the resolution isn't right to boot, you need more pixels for your purpose (for instance if you intend to apply fake/simulated scanlines, the higher the resolution, the better, and 768p just isn't enough, trust me)

You have to understand there's no difference between a pc lcd monitor and those, actually most name brand standard 1080p IPS and AMVA monitors currently on the market are much better performers and significantly cheaper than those obsolete turds sold as 'arcade parts'.

A couple examples of the best performing and affordable 1080p monitors atm;

IPS: LG all the way.
LG 27MP67VQ (or HQ version but it lacks DVI) -> no rotating stand but you can buy a VESA one separately.
Other 'MP' series LG monitors like i.e. cheaper 27MP37VQ perform the same but with maybe slightly inferior color performance, otherwise it's mostly a matter of features and options.
The 'commercial' model 27MB65PY comes with a rotating stand but lacks a straight HDMI input (you can use a simple HDMI>DVI converter though).
All with a display lag way under 1 frame.

AMVA: Iiyama Prolite XB2783HSU-B1 -> best performing AMVA 1080p monitor, comes with a rotating stand.
The only other alternative with stand would be the BenQ BL2700HT, not reviewed but expected to perform just like the Iiyama.
The former has a lag way under 1 frame, the latter should as well.

Non-standard refresh rate games like those of old Irem, Seibu, Konami hardwares (R-Type, Raiden, Xexex, etc) will never display right or without a bit of judder/stutter without using some form of frame buffering or forced synchronization.

In emulators this translates by forced v-sync which is smooth but might speed-up the games, or one form of buffering like triple buffering in MAME.
You can also let your GPU handle the vertical syncing and force only 1 frame of buffering in the control panel (most ATI/AMD & nVidia cards can do that).
RetroArch features a thing called 'Hard GPU Sync' that supposedly is a superior solution for smooth syncing and lower lag, but in my experience it doesn't always work well.

Without emulators and using real hardware you'll need an external scaler, but few are capable of handling stuff like the Irem and Seibu pcb's.
The older Micomsoft XRGB (XRGB-1, XRGB-2) can, and the quality is pretty good for what it is and completely lagless, but they're kind of hard to find and possibly expensive.
The cheapo GBS-8220 like the one sold on jammaboards is what most people use, supposedly the one they sell is an updated version with included modelines for stuff like Irem and Seibu, but I'm not 100% sure about that. Lag is about 2 frames.
Arcadeforge sell a comlplete kit with included scart input and sync switching, a bit expensive too though.

Anyway, don't dream about obscure or forgotten flat panels that would be perfect or better for 'retro' as this is simply bullshit; there are none. Misinformed people on some 'uneducated' forums like to tell themselves stories and share their unfortunate recently acquired 'knowledge', pushing other to buy crap.
The only good thing you can do is get the best performing panel (IPS or VA is you choice) among those that have been extensively tested (we know several) and either use them with a good pc and proper emulators, or the few rare and expensive scalers that don't suck (XRGB, DVDO, etc).

My personal preferences goes to higher resolutions like 1440p and 4K + advanced crt shaders like crt-royale (though not user-friendly).
But a good 1080p monitor with an average pc or a decent scaler can already be plenty awesome for retro goodness.
Again just don't buy any of those ridiculous 'arcade' lcd's that are just marketing lies, nor any other lower resolution or wrong aspect ratio displays.

Well, regarding ratio there are some great 16:10 that can do a fantastic job though, like the Asus PB248Q or VS24AHL if those are available in your area.
Some people consider those the middle ground for gaming/retro and everything else.

Very informative post, thanks! Another question-

That 27MB65PY-B looks really interesting, but is it possible to have the monitor running to match the frequency of, say, R-Type @ 55hz & Game Boy @ 59.73Hz in Libretro MAME? Kinda something like G-Sync, but manually, be it in software or hardware via obscure monitor settings?
http://www.lg.com/us/commercial/lcd-computer-monitors/lg-27MB65PY-B
 
Now you're asking I don't recall trying Irem/Seibu games since I've started using RetroArch (been using it only for about two months).

Before enabling what they call 'Hard GPU Sync' (which I think uses sound information for syncing or something like that) they recommend using the monitor 'refresh finder' or whatever it's called. It's a feature to verify precisely what's your monitor refresh, if there are any small deviations from 60Hz it should detect those and supposedly help with clean syncing.
Let the thing run for something like 4096 frames and it should stabilize.
Then enable hard gpu sync and set waiting frames to zero (zero lag in theory).

(sorry haven't been home for some time and right now using a old crappy XP laptop so I can't double-check on my 'real' pc)

Anyway I wouldn't believe this acts like a g-sync alternative. First off I'm not sure how this works for real, there's an article with the theory on libretro but I'm no engineer so I can just believe it or not, maybe the whole thing is nothing like sorcery and just some remote control for the GPU in place of the AMD/nVidia control panels.
Because I don't see how a 60Hz monitor could possibly sync @ 54 or 55Hz without some sort of buffering or messing up with the game's speed.
59.73Hz sounds manageable though, since it's very close to 60Hz.

Again, definitely don't go thinking there are 60Hz monitors around that are flexible enough to handle very non-standard refresh rates without some form of trickery (usually involving buffering and lag) if a flat panel monitor is somehow advertized as capable of handling all arcade boards it because it features a built-in ghetto scaler buffering the shit out of everything, that's for sure.

Only G-Sync and FreeSync monitors offer a real flexibility.

You should visit the libretro website and community again to learn more about hard gpu sync and other optimal sync settings, also check the BYOAC (Build Your Own Arcade Controls) community, where they do discuss and test that kind of stuff seriously.

My personal view on RetroArch is that it sucks in terms of useability (it's a non-user-friendly HELL) but it still brings the current most advanced features in emulation, like the impressive crt shaders and the bizarre syncing stuff.

Going back to the monitor thing, be aware that 1080p resolution is a minimum for scanlines emulation but definitely not optimal. You will still notice unevenly distributed/thick scanlines in many cases.
The higher the monitor's resolution the better, on my 1200p monitor the flaws are a bit less noticeable, and would be even less on a 1440p for sure.
Many effects used to imitate low-res crt pixels are also more convincing in higher resolutions.

That's all I can say on that topic but... why not save money for some time and get yourself an Acer XB270HU ?
It will be much better than any 60Hz monitor, I know I'm stating the obvious but heh. ^^
 
other than RetroArch, there is also a good Advanced CRT shader in Sweetfx, with CRT oversampling and Gaussian scanline effect, it looks pretty good on a 1080p
the newest version now works well with OpenGL and old DX versions and many emulators
At least the iiyama XB2483HSU I have accepts any refresh between exactly 49.200hz and 76.300hz, no anomalies
it seems this is not a given on many monitors
NwMxylc.jpg
AwJJNQo.jpg

it would have portrait mode for shmups, VGA, low input lag (<4ms) and rather deep blacks (3600:1) for unobtrusive 4:3 bars, and its low-priced
on the other hand it lacks support for higher refresh rates, strobing/the motion clarity of CRTs, has no Gsync/Freesync, it apparently supports VGA resolutions but I have no idea how well it scales (probably not good since its an LCD)

it should still be possible to get used CRTs? does not have to be a FW900, a normal 4:3 flat would also do it. maybe one can be had for cheap on ebay, would be perfect for Dreamcast and emulation of 2D games.
even if you get both, should still cost notably less than a gsync or high-res monitor

edit:
there is also the LG Electronics 24GM77-B - it is a very good for its class and inexpensive 144hz TN Panel with a good strobing implementation, and it also has portrait and VGA.
It lacks capability for freesync/gsync though, but its not possible to use strobing and adaptive sync at the same time anyway.
 
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At least the iiyama XB2483HSU I have accepts any refresh between exactly 49.200hz and 76.300hz, no anomalies
Holy crap I didn't know it could go this low! That's good info.

I've read about SweetFX before and seen people post their settings but I wasn't impressed with the screenshots which at best showed something on the level of a properly set HLSL.
Crt-Royale on the other hand blew me away, even just using the mask types and sample modes using blended pixels.

The main issue is the lack of configurable and flexible internal resolution scaling (AFAIK) and custom refresh rates.
Otherwise it's the best there before full size mask simulation in 4K or even higher, no doubt about that.

I wish there was some standalone crt-royale program with a wider range of controls and executable over any emulator.
Kind of an all-in-one crt-royale/sweetfx/powerstrip/quickres program...

EDIT: something I made with crt-royale;

In 1080p while watching my 27" Trinitron side-by-side - notice the unevenly distributed scanlines, I couldn't fix that.
2w6t5c1.jp


And here in 1200p but with a bit too much bloom/halation for my taste;
2lnu2b9.png
 
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nice pics, CRT shaders have really become great in the last 3 years or so
if you input Crt-royale into google search there are some impressive screenshots
 
Save yourself a trouble and headache from watching blurred image on LCDs and go like real man do, go CRT route.

1. CRT have strobing, feature that almost no other monitors have in 50-60Hz range. It is responsible for perfectly sharp image of scrolling backgrounds and without it there will be motion blur and loss of sharpness, even if panel itself was changing pixels in 0ms.

2. Second killer feature of CRTs is lack of native resolution so you can always get it right and play in native resolution of a game.

3. It have 0ms input lag.

4. Doesn't really need need for CRT shader and if you use it then you can use resolution that is integer multiple of game resolution and disable some effect like flaring because they are not needed on CRT to give CRT look and feel ;)

5. If you set 55Hz then it is 55Hz, no worry about frame_skipping on monitors side because it is 100% analog device without any pixel memory and it sync perfectly to graphics card

6. They are cheap. Usually shipping cost is more than monitor itself. You can also ask people if anyone have one to give for free or some minimal price. Chances are someone have one and do not know what to do with it and would gladly give it to someone who will actually use it.

7. Perfect viewing angles and awesome color accuracy and contrast ratio. Oh, and glass surface, not glossy but real deal glass :cool:

8. It gives you +10 to respect and +20 to awesomeness of your room
 
It's obvious... but used crt monitors in very good shape don't grow on trees nowadays.

Ideally he could also grab a used Sony PVM or BVM and have the best possible experience with things like soft15khz and GroovyMame.
(in Europe a standard crt TV with scart will do)

But shipping that is even more hazardous than a crt pc monitor (which is already risky), a lot of those get critically damaged in transport because aside from specialized movers, standard carriers today are no longer capable of safely handling such heavy and fragile parcels.

After locating one or several on sale somewhere it's better to drive there to pick it up, and even better: to tests in on location (a must I would say).

But you know... shmuppers also like a display easy to rotate, and crt's aren't (or you must own two, one for landscape, one for portrait).
 
At least the iiyama XB2483HSU I have accepts any refresh between exactly 49.200hz and 76.300hz, no anomalies
it seems this is not a given on many monitors
NwMxylc.jpg
AwJJNQo.jpg

it would have portrait mode for shmups, VGA, low input lag (<4ms) and rather deep blacks (3600:1) for unobtrusive 4:3 bars, and its low-priced
on the other hand it lacks support for higher refresh rates, strobing/the motion clarity of CRTs, has no Gsync/Freesync, it apparently supports VGA resolutions but I have no idea how well it scales (probably not good since its an LCD)

it should still be possible to get used CRTs? does not have to be a FW900, a normal 4:3 flat would also do it. maybe one can be had for cheap on ebay, would be perfect for Dreamcast and emulation of 2D games.
even if you get both, should still cost notably less than a gsync or high-res monitor

edit:
there is also the LG Electronics 24GM77-B - it is a very good for its class and inexpensive 144hz TN Panel with a good strobing implementation, and it also has portrait and VGA.
It lacks capability for freesync/gsync though, but its not possible to use strobing and adaptive sync at the same time anyway.

Neat, I didn't know that Iiyama monitor supported those refresh rates. Unfortunately, they aren't selling it in the US, or most of their monitors apparently. And for a "cheap" display, it's gonna cost about 400 bucks to import it from Euorpe. The 24gm77-b looks interesting. Anyone know what in the hell "Dynamic Action Sync Mode" does? I've dug around and even the manual doesn't fully explain how it works.

I'd love to just get my hands on a FW900, but they're impossible to fine, at least for me.

Save yourself a trouble and headache from watching blurred image on LCDs and go like real man do, go CRT route.

Believe me, I'd love to get my hands on a proper CRT monitor like a BVM or something, but I've never been able to find those either.
 
Dynamic Action Sync Mode (DAS) is a function of this monitor that reduces the input lag.
Apparently you can't use the motion240 strobing and DAS at the same time, but even without it the input lag is pretty low.
I got this from the tomshardware review:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/lg-24gm77-gaming-monitor,4082-8.html

one thing I just read in another review (prad.de), is that the strobing requires a game at 120fps to reach full potential.
apparently it does not look very good when doing 60fps@120hz with motion240...this could be a problem when using emulators.
maybe someone here knows more?
 
Anyway never buy a TN if you're going to play vertical shmups in 'tate'/portrait, there's not even one with open-enough viewing angles for that kind of games.

IPS or VA (or plasma, or crt, or oled) - all of those - but never a TN.
 
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