First WC loop design, check me to make sure I don't derp?

[vagabond142]

Hey [H]ard peeps

So, my boss at work is helping me out selling some stuff, and will be assisting me with building a watercooling setup, however, as he is quite busy, I've taken it upon myself to design a loop.

This thread will take multiple stages, first with design, then diagramming it out, and finally selecting parts and building the darned thing. As I have come to respect the knowledge here on the forums, I hope for some constructive feedback My full budget is going to be ~$600-$700 CDN, so I will be getting quality, long lasting parts.

Firstly, the system:

i7-2600k which will be overclocked to ~4.2-4.4 GHz once on water
Asus P8Z68-V Pro Gen3
2x Gigabyte 670 OC Windforce 3, will be minorly overclocked once on water
Corsair Vengeance LP 16GB 1600
Corsair HX850W modular (so rock solid it's ridiculous)

I will be purchasing a new case for this build, namely a Corsair AIR-540


First stages of design:

So, the items that will be actively cooled with water will be:
-CPU
-2x 670's

This will also be a redundant loop using two pumps, so the water will keep flowing should one pump fail and throw an alarm. All fans will be either Noctua NF-F12S/F14S or Corsair high flow static pressure fans. All water blocks will be copper where the water actually touches.

My thought so far is (loop will start and end at res):

Res (behind mobo) -> Pump 1 -> Pump 2-> through one of the top cable management ports -> CPU -> 240 top of case -> GPU 1 -> GPU 2 -> 360 at front of case -> through the same cable management port at the top of the case that the lines came through at first -> Res

So, am I out to lunch or is this a viable loop, do you think?

Pics of the AIR 540:

Mobo side:
http://www.corsair.com/us/media/cat...d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/i/air540_side_a_open_1.png

Behind mobo (res will be upper right, pumps lower left)
http://www.corsair.com/us/media/cat...d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/i/air540_side_b_open_1.png

 

[Skripka]

You comitted a HUGE No-No in your loop design.

Pump(s) must ALWAYS be after the reservoir, not before it. Doing otherwise will result in blood and tears in addition to making your loop impossible to fill in addition to probably damaging your pump from running it without lubrication from coolant.

At such a low overclock, I wouldn't bother with VRM cooling or southbridge cooling unless you just want to and have the discretionary income to burn.

Also last I knew most folks who've used the Corsair fans were underwhelmed by how loud they were.

 

[vagabond142]

Thanks for the catch, Skripka +1 internets for you

So, revised would be Res -> Pump 1 -> Pump 2 -> through mobo cutout -> rest of loop.

As to the VRM, the kit is only $100 for 3 copper blocks, it's a "what the hell, why not?" addition. Granted, taking it out of the loop would make the build SIGNIFICANTLY cleaner. It would probably make it:

R -> P1 -> P2 -> CPU -> 240 -> GPU 1 -> GPU 2 -> 360 -> R

And the 120/140 could be in there if needed for a cool between the pumps and the CPU.

Also, regarding fans: I have a bit of a nerd-on for Noctua, they may not be the prettiest colorwise, but DAMN do they work well

 

[ak47is1337]

be careful with copper blocks. mix them with any aluminum and you will have some big problems down the road. like skripka said, SB and VRM cooling is likely highly unnecessary.

What parts are you using for everything? Having 2 pumps may sound reassuring but it may very well be unnecessary; not to mention there is extra heat dump.

On a side note, make sure you make the pumps work one after the other, not side by side, as you will have horrifying efficiency doing side-by-side pumping.

 

[vagabond142]

be careful with copper blocks. mix them with any aluminum and you will have some big problems down the road. like skripka said, SB and VRM cooling is likely highly unnecessary.

What parts are you using for everything? Having 2 pumps may sound reassuring but it may very well be unnecessary; not to mention there is extra heat dump.

On a side note, make sure you make the pumps work one after the other, not side by side, as you will have horrifying efficiency doing side-by-side pumping.

So, taking the VRM and SB out of the loop is pretty much a given now. Two people + me boss telling me this = consensus

Blocks will be copper or nickel plated copper. No aluminum will be used.

Parts are to be determined, but I will not cheap out and go for the lowest bidder. My GPUs, despite being 670's, use GTX680 ref 2 pcbs (8pin + 6pin side by side, not stacked). The only one I can find that shows to fit is the AquaComputer AquagraFX 680 ver 2 here: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1..._-_Non_Reference_Design.html?tl=c311s1631b200

My CPU block is still being researched.

Rads will be Black Ice, AlphaCool, etc (read: high quality)


As to the pumps, they will be in series, not parallel. As long as I use quality pumps, I don't think there will be too much heat soak. Im not dismissing your concern at all, it is now on my list of things to investigate. If all else fails, I'll jury rig a 120 mm fan to blow on the pumps

 

[Skripka]

So, taking the VRM and SB out of the loop is pretty much a given now. Two people + me boss telling me this = consensus

Blocks will be copper or nickel plated copper. No aluminum will be used.

Parts are to be determined, but I will not cheap out and go for the lowest bidder. My GPUs, despite being 670's, use GTX680 ref 2 pcbs (8pin + 6pin side by side, not stacked). The only one I can find that shows to fit is the AquaComputer AquagraFX 680 ver 2 here: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1..._-_Non_Reference_Design.html?tl=c311s1631b200

My CPU block is still being researched.

Rads will be Black Ice, AlphaCool, etc (read: high quality)


As to the pumps, they will be in series, not parallel. As long as I use quality pumps, I don't think there will be too much heat soak. Im not dismissing your concern at all, it is now on my list of things to investigate. If all else fails, I'll jury rig a 120 mm fan to blow on the pumps

Amigo, watercooling pumps cool themselves and lubricate themselves with the coolant. Blowing air on a D5 won't do much...and unless you strap heatsink baffles to 35X fans won't do much either.

Here's a pic I took of my sig rig system a while back at full GPU load with a calibrated FLIR scope (accurate to about 0.1C) to give you an idea about heat...and this is with an excess of rad space

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ll0d0sj012pq45g/IR_0017.jpg

 

[vagabond142]

As to parts, my budget ceiling is $700 CDN. 2x GPU + 1x CPU = ~$350-$400. Rads should be ~$150 all said. Two very good pumps = $150

That gives me $700. Sound realistic?

(I'm basing my prices off frozenCPU and DazMode (Canadian w/c store) )

 

[Imitation]

As to parts, my budget ceiling is $700 CDN. 2x GPU + 1x CPU = ~$350-$400. Rads should be ~$150 all said. Two very good pumps = $150

That gives me $700. Sound realistic?

(I'm basing my prices off frozenCPU and DazMode (Canadian w/c store) )

If your heart is still set on dual pumps, I'd highly recommend the D5 vario's so you can run them at a low speed. Or dual swiftech 35x's so you can control their speed as well.

As for cpu block, most of the current blocks perform very close to each other, so it might come down to personal pref or aesthetics. I went with swiftech because they've always treated me well and their mounting system is very good. But I'm sure most of the others aren't rocket science to install either.

I'd suggest gentle typhoon fans if you can get over your nerdgasm for the noctua's.

One other potential BIG expense you haven't accounted for, or maybe you have with price rounding, is fittings. Barbs are cheaper, but compression fittings look better.

 

[nissanztt90]

D5 varios for pumps...consider the XSPC D5 resevoir/pump top combo for each. It will remove the need for a reservoir and extra fittings and tubing. Id say get one for each since you dont want to cheap out. For excellent cooling and overclockability, id suggest 120x240mm rads per high end component. Preferably fat radiators like the RX series from XSPC. The swiftech MCR series is great too. For fans, for quality, Gentle Tyhpoons.

 

[vagabond142]

Good advice so far. As to fittings, yes, my price roundings include compression fittings for all blocks, rads, reservoir, etc.

Nissanztt90: A 120x240 for the CPU is a given (top exhaust). I have read, however, that going GPU1 -> GPU 2 -> Rad was the best route for doing SLI (120x360x60 in pull or even push/pull). I may be misunderstanding, but are you suggesting I put another rad in the loop before the water returns to the res? (120x120x40 at the back, would bring 360+120 = 480 total)

Imitation: I was thinking very much about the Swiftechs. Very highly reviewed

 

[vagabond142]

Also, if I may be so bold as to ask, what is the difference between Noctua NF-F series and Scythe Gentle Typhoons? Looking through specs, they seem to be on par for CFM and static pressure. The only engineering difference I can see is the fan blade design and the fact that the Scythes are available in thinner models (although I would use 25mm all around so as to get the best airflow).

I'm not trying to sound like a "I'm right, you're wrong" type here. I am genuinely interested in the science and the reasoning behind the GT120 vs the F12S

 

[nissanztt90]

Scythe GTs are genereally regarded as the quietest for the CFM is all. Loop order doesnt matter other than pump drawing from reservoir...literally nothing else about the loop order matters as far as cooling so do whatever makes the most sense in your case.

My radiator suggestion is 120x240mm per high end component for overclocking and silence. Having 120x480mm total will likely be sufficient but youll give up either overclocking or silence or a mixture of the two.

 

[vagabond142]

My radiator suggestion is 120x240mm per high end component for overclocking and silence. Having 120x480mm total will likely be sufficient but youll give up either overclocking or silence or a mixture of the two.

The AIR-540 can only fit a 360 up front. I would need to go up to a 900D to fit a 480. While I am not adverse to this, it does make for having a GIGANTIC case instead of a moderately sized one

Would not a 360x120x60 with 6 fans in push/pull do a decent job cooling 2x 670's?

The CPU alone has the top mounted 120x240x40/60 in pull config (two fans) as I plan on a gentle overclock to 4.2-4.4.

I guess I should state the goal of this build as step 1.5, so it's easier to understand what I am expecting out of this:

My goal is to have a 5760x1080 capable system, without a PCI-e bottleneck (hence the CPU overclock), for maximum FPS at minimum temperatures. I don't mind some fan roar as I wear enclosed headphones (Corsair Vengeance 1500). In order of priority:

1) Temperatures: if I can keep the GPU's under 60-55 C at 100% burn load (15 min burn in furmark), I'm happy. If I can keep the CPU under 50 C with the overclock at the same time, I'm ecstatic I think these goals are realistic. Please slap me across the head if they are not

2) Performance: I would rather have a mildly noisy fan keeping my temps in check than a dead silent one letting my temps go high

3) Silence: See item 2 If I can be very quiet AND have superb performance, all the better

 

[nissanztt90]

I misread one of your posts...i thought you were going to have 120x480mm total for 2 gpus and the cpu.

If youve got a 120x240mm for the CPU, and a 120x360mm for both GPUs i think youll achieve what your looking for with a pretty quiet setup. BF3 heats up my 5.0ghz 2500k to mid 60's and my 6950 to mid 50's and i have 120x480mm. Dont waste your money on a push/pull setup either. Go with a low fin density triple row rad and pick either push or pull...either one doesnt matter just do what makes more sense for your case.

Keep in mind when you overclock that a game will never load the CPU like IBT. IBT heats my CPU up to almost 90. For a stability test im fine with that. BF3, a very CPU intensive game...mid 60's, maybe cracking 70. Youll probably end up with room for a little more OC than 4.2-4.4ghz.

 

[Erasmus354]

1) You are being far too liberal with your pricing estimates if you want to remain on budget.

• 2x D5 or DDC pumps - $170-180
• OPTION - Pump tops to allow usage of compression fittings (or pay for modified pump) - $40
• 2x AquaComputer GTX680 Type2 - $220
• AquaComputer KryoConnect (SLI connector) - $25
• CPU Waterblock - $50 (for the cheapest not necessarily best)
• 240mm Radiator - $50
• 360mm Radiator - $63
• Reservoir - $30
• Tubing - $25
• 14x Compression Fittings - $84 ($6 each, doesn't account for any 45's, 90's or rotaries)
• 10x Fans - $70 for cheap Yate Loons, $140 for the GT or Noctuas you are talking about

Total : ~$790-$900 USD, or $830-$945 CAD without shipping

2) In light of above, ditch the dual pumps. You really don't need it. Get a single D5 pump, they are great. The talk about heat dump is very real, a D5 or DDC is going to dump somewhere between 10-15W of excess heat into your loop. Now 2 pumps will probably cool slightly better, but it isn't worth the added cost. Same with the push/pull, you really don't need it and it just adds a lot of cost to the system. A single fan might seem cheap but 5 extra fans isn't quite so cheap!

3) I don't know how your planned routing looks for your loop, but plan it so that the tubing runs are as short and clean as possible (unless you are going for a certain aesthetic with lots of tubes, I prefer clean and simple). For example it seems that your proposed CPU -> 240 -> GPU routing has the tubing going down to the CPU, then up to the rad, then down across the CPU to the GPU. It might be less tubing to go to the 240 -> CPU -> GPU. Don't worry about having to get a radiator before or after a certain part etc..., the water doesn't heat up much going through the CPU block (0.5-1.5 degree Celsius depending upon flow rate). As mentioned earlier the only thing you want to worry about is getting the pump after the reservoir. Beyond that loop order will not effect the performance of your system in any meaningful way, so do what you think looks good and/or makes the system easier to route.

 

[vagabond142]

Here's a rough (MS Paint SKEEEEEEELZ) flow diagram of how I have it in my head (the crossover hole will be the one closest to the front directly above where the RAM would be when you look at case images):

Options:

-Get a res/pump combo thing where the res is part of the pump assembly.
-Move res down beside the pump with a top feed for return and a bottom feed to pump
-Go 240 -> CPU -> GPU -> 360 as suggested (although I want the water hitting the GPU's to be absolutely as cool as possible). I roughed that one in (yay paint) below:

-If the CPU doesn't heat the water that much, maybe going P1 -> CPU -> rear mounted 140x140x20/40 rad -> GPU would work to eliminate that heat

Here's a link to the case so you can peer at it from multiple angles so you can see where I'm going with this http://www.corsair.com/en/pc-cases/...eries-air-540-high-airflow-atx-cube-case.html

 

[MouseTrap]

^^100% Agree with the above post of Erasmus354...^^

 

[vagabond142]

As to parts:

CPU: Almost certainly an XSPC Raystorm full copper. Best of the ones out there I've seen reviews on, also fairly low restriction for cooling efficiency it produces

GPU:
AquaComputer or EK FC-680 GTX+. Again, very highly reviewed, and both fit the 680 type 2 reference board.

Fans:
Deltas!


.... okay, just kidding, I will more than likely use either GT120/140's or Noctua NF-F12S or NF-F14S. I need to really sit down and hear them side by side, see their comparos, etc... I might just buy up a set of 3 each, use each for a day, keep the ones I like, sell the others

 

[vagabond142]

Actually, looking at it, option 3 seems the cleanest to me

P1 ( -> P2) -> CPU -> 120x120 rad (thin, exhaust, pull) -> GPU1 -> GPU2 -> 360x120 (thick, intake, pull) -> Res

Makes for a very straightforwards loop, and takes out the pump dump + CPU before the water hits GPU. I think that is my new loop plan! (also saves a little money, which I can put into a second pump )

 

[Erasmus354]

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18527343


^^ Go with that layout. Everything you have.


As for the CPU not heating it up much, here is basically how to think about watercooling. Imagine that all of your processors put heat into the system as one large unit and all of your radiators take it out as one large unit. Your processors will always put in the same amount of heat for sake of argument, the radiators have to dissipate that heat. When your coolant is at room temperature, the radiators can't dissipate any heat (they need a temperature differential to transfer heat).

So you have say 400W going into the water and 0W coming out of the water at power on. Radiators can dissipate more heat the higher the temperature difference between the coolant and the air gets, other factors are primarily surface area (size of the radiators) and fluid flow (faster = lower boundary layer and more heat dissipation). Because surface area and fluid flow are constant, what happens is the coolant temperature will rise until your radiators are able to dissipate the 400W that is being put into the water. So the more/larger your radiators are the lower your coolant temperatures will be once your system reaches equilibrium. It actually takes a decently long time for the coolant to heat up to the point that the radiators dissipate the same amount of heat being put into the loop.

The comment of the CPU not heating up the water very much isn't saying that you don't need as large a radiator, it is saying that you don't need a radiator right after the CPU. The water in a loop cycles VERY quickly, and it heats up very slowly. Water is a good coolant because it absorbs a lot of energy to increase in temperature. So the water moving quickly through your loop might be 34C going into the CPU block and 35C coming out, you don't really need to worry too much about cooling down that 35C water right away before going to the GPU. It just has to be cooled down somewhere in your loop. So don't think of the 240 as your CPU radiator and the 360 as your GPU radiator. Think of it as "I have 5x120 radiators cooling my CPU and 2 GPU's".

 

[nissanztt90]

fluid flow (faster = lower boundary layer and more heat dissipation).

This is a fairly common misconception. It holds true to a point, but past that increasing fluid flow rates will have little to no impact and will have diminishing returns. The smaller boundary layer increases heat conduction to dissipate heat faster, but its counteracted by the ability to pick up heat faster from the heat source. That being said, a single D5 is almost always enough for any loop.

So don't think of the 240 as your CPU radiator and the 360 as your GPU radiator. Think of it as "I have 5x120 radiators cooling my CPU and 2 GPU's".

This. Loop order does not matter. All you need is for the pump to draw from the res. The rest of the layout should be whatever makes the most sense for your case.

 

[vagabond142]

This is actually the picture that gave me the idea for my first loop design. As you can see, a 360 and a 240 will fit, but it is tight !

I still want the dual pumps, but I've found lots of official bits that let you mount two pumps under one big res, so the res and pumps are technically the same unit.

It is also going to test my cable management to the absolute limit to make sure that there is enough room for the pumps/res at the bottom front of the right side of the case. The other option, and it's non-optimal, is to have the pump up in the back top of the right side of the case. Take a look at this picture, I would probably bolt it all to the grille on the back of the case with some minor modding.

Neither of those are my pictures... they're just google images results


Also, calculated out the heat watts that I EXPECT the loop to produce, and it comes out to ~480 watts, using two Swiftech MCP655's as a base point for pump heat (as they are some of the more powerful pumps out there, can hit 1100 Lph no problem) with the CPU OC'd to 4.4 GHz and both GPU's lifted to 1000 MHz base core (very VERY mild overclock)

Using common sense, I need 480x120mm of radiator frontage to dissipate that heat effectively. With the 240+360, I will have 600x120mm of radiator frontage d(^^ d)

Gives a nice margin of safety.

Also, my room's ambient is usually hovering at the 21-23 C mark, so I have a nice cool environment into which to dissipate the heat

All this number crunching is actually kind of fun If I only knew how to use sketchup, I would build the loop there and post pics XD

 

[Erasmus354]

This is a fairly common misconception. It holds true to a point, but past that increasing fluid flow rates will have little to no impact and will have diminishing returns. The smaller boundary layer increases heat conduction to dissipate heat faster, but its counteracted by the ability to pick up heat faster from the heat source. That being said, a single D5 is almost always enough for any loop.



This. Loop order does not matter. All you need is for the pump to draw from the res. The rest of the layout should be whatever makes the most sense for your case.

You cannot pick up heat faster (once the closed system gets to equilibrium). You will always pick up heat at the rate it is being produced (otherwise your processor would cool down to absolute zero or heat up to melting). What you can do is pick up heat more efficiently (pulling out the heat at a lower temperature differential equaling lower processor temperatures). There are diminishing returns for sure, but picking up heat faster does not happen. The tipping point in practical setups is that increasing flow rate requires increased pumping power, which in turn results in more heat dump into the loop. At a certain point your very minor gains in heat transfer efficiency from the faster flow is more than counteracted by the increased heat from the pumps.


Vagabond: If you want dual pumps I say go for it. I just wanted you to be aware of how realistic your budget would actually be. I think tinkering and trying stuff out is most of the fun of doing a watercooled system. Dual Laing pumps should work quite well. Also the thing in the pictures that I thought you could take advantage of was the 360 radiator with the ports on the bottom. It makes for cleaner routing than having the ports on the top like in your diagram.

 

[vagabond142]

Vagabond: If you want dual pumps I say go for it. I just wanted you to be aware of how realistic your budget would actually be. I think tinkering and trying stuff out is most of the fun of doing a watercooled system. Dual Laing pumps should work quite well. Also the thing in the pictures that I thought you could take advantage of was the 360 radiator with the ports on the bottom. It makes for cleaner routing than having the ports on the top like in your diagram.

I definitely like redundancy. $800-$900 isn't all that bad. Basically, it comes down to either buying two 780's and selling the 670's, or investing in a WC setup that can be upgraded as time goes on (hence the headroom).

So, keeping the 240 and the 360... Res/Pump combo -> 240 -> CPU -> GPU1 -> GPU2 -> 360 -> Res/Pump combo should (!!) be the most efficient "straight" loop... no bouncing up, down, back, forth between things, just one long straight line

 

[nissanztt90]

You cannot pick up heat faster (once the closed system gets to equilibrium). You will always pick up heat at the rate it is being produced (otherwise your processor would cool down to absolute zero or heat up to melting). What you can do is pick up heat more efficiently (pulling out the heat at a lower temperature differential equaling lower processor temperatures). There are diminishing returns for sure, but picking up heat faster does not happen. The tipping point in practical setups is that increasing flow rate requires increased pumping power, which in turn results in more heat dump into the loop. At a certain point your very minor gains in heat transfer efficiency from the faster flow is more than counteracted by the increased heat from the pumps.

Ok and once it hits equilibrium you wont dissipate heat any faster...still a wash. Whether you want to talk about approaching equilibrium or at equilibrium, the boundary layer increasing heat transfer works both ways.

*and by faster we should really be saying more efficiently transferring heat.

 

[Erasmus354]

Ok and once it hits equilibrium you wont dissipate heat any faster...still a wash. Whether you want to talk about approaching equilibrium or at equilibrium, the boundary layer increasing heat transfer works both ways.

*and by faster we should really be saying more efficiently transferring heat.

You don't seem to quite understand, the entire point of a watercooling system is to remove heat as efficiently as possible from the heat sources. This is *not* a negative as you seem to believe. Reducing the boundary layer increasing heat transfer both ways is a positive in both cases not some negative side effect.

I definitely like redundancy. $800-$900 isn't all that bad. Basically, it comes down to either buying two 780's and selling the 670's, or investing in a WC setup that can be upgraded as time goes on (hence the headroom).

So, keeping the 240 and the 360... Res/Pump combo -> 240 -> CPU -> GPU1 -> GPU2 -> 360 -> Res/Pump combo should (!!) be the most efficient "straight" loop... no bouncing up, down, back, forth between things, just one long straight line

That is what I was thinking without having the system in front of me. What you might find when you start getting everything together is that some bends might be too tight or difficult to make. It might be easier for example to go your initial route of CPU -> 240 -> GPU. You'll probably just want to play around with it some and see what you think works best and/or looks best to you. I just want you to know that aside from Reservoir -> Pump you can pretty much order the loop as you see fit! Looking forward to some pictures of the build.

 

[vagabond142]

(takes all the work so far, tosses out window)

Buddy of mine has a slightly damaged (front panel dent, about 1/8" deep, as well as a couple of missing thumb screws and a slight scratch at the bottom of the window) 900D he is going to sell me for the same price as a new Air 540. (rubs hands together evilly)

So... 1x360 rad in the ceiling + 1x480 rad in the basement = water cooling joy and MASSIVE room for expansion (I do want to go triSLI at some point)

 

[vagabond142]

So, reading articles, I see a lot of back and forth so I shall ask here:

Parallel or serial SLI cards? Serial, as I understand it, is more restrictive but better pressure, and parallel is lower pressure but better flow rate.

 

[Erasmus354]

So, reading articles, I see a lot of back and forth so I shall ask here:

Parallel or serial SLI cards? Serial, as I understand it, is more restrictive but better pressure, and parallel is lower pressure but better flow rate.

It most likely wont make very much difference. If you are still planning to stick with dual pumps then I would most likely stick with serial.

Parallel will increase the flow rate for the other components in the loop by a little bit (but will decrease the flow that each card gets). So you will have slightly better CPU cooling and possibly slightly worse GPU cooling. With serial you have slightly better GPU flow rates and slightly worse system flow rates. The difference is likely minimal.

If you are at all familiar with electronics and ohms law flow rate in a closed loop is very similar. Components (Restriction) are resistors (resistance), flow rate is current, pressure is voltage. Anyways if you put two waterblocks in parallel their restriction goes down just like two resistors in parallel have lower resistance. However each waterblock gets half of the system flowrate now.