First DX10 comming Q4!

benamaster · Jan 23, 2006

I really don't think with that large of a Windows XP user base that we will see DX10 be Vista only, we just can say all the new games for Christmas 2006 will be Vista Only!

heatlesssun · Jan 23, 2006

DX10 will NOT require Vista first off. Many of the features that will be shipped in Vista will be available to XP, as Microsoft realized that businesses aren't going to upgrade to Vista for a while, if ever. Most on going to be on XP for quite a while. Vista and XP are going to coexist for a long time, meaning that both will get 1st level support.

As for XP, though its had is share of security issues, overall it's worked very well. I've espcially liked the Tablet and Media Center versions. They offer something unique and the latest verions have really been neat. Windows Media Center IMHO is the best HTPC system around, with one glaring hole, the lack of real HDTV support. But that's more of a problem with hardware than software.

As for Vista, it's got a lot more going on than the interface. It really will be the first version of Windows that has a good secuity model. Current Windows versions don't do what UNIX has done from the begining, that is work from a default deny philosophy. Most Windows users log in as administrators (because for the most part you have to). With Vista, like UNIX, you'd almost never do that. If you need higher privledges, you'd only do so when prompted, what Microsoft calls User Account Protection. That and IE will by default run as a VERY limited user. It won't be able to do the crap it does today by default.

These changes will solve 90% of the security issues in Windows, at least problems like the WMF hole. Visiting a web site won't take over your computer anymore, If a hole does arise, apps won't by default be running under high privleged accounts like administrator that can infect your PC.

Brent_Justice · Jan 23, 2006

Yoshiyuki Blade said:
Hmmm everything looks gorgeous, bit the fire is still hideously ugly. When will we see fire done right?!

I thought FEAR's fire was pretty good

Yoshiyuki Blade · Jan 23, 2006

Brent_Justice said:
I thought FEAR's fire was pretty good

To be perfectly honest, I haven't checked FEAR out yet. I'll have to take a look!

phide · Jan 23, 2006

Volumetric fire looks much better when in motion.

dderidex · Jan 23, 2006

heatlesssun said:
DX10 will NOT require Vista first off. Many of the features that will be shipped in Vista will be available to XP, as Microsoft realized that businesses aren't going to upgrade to Vista for a while, if ever. Most on going to be on XP for quite a while. Vista and XP are going to coexist for a long time, meaning that both will get 1st level support.

See here

D3D 10 will require VDDM to work, so we won't be seeing it before Vista. D3D 10 has been developed in collaboration with Independent Hardware Vendors (IHVs) such as NVIDIA and ATI, but obviously only to a degree seeing as feature sets from these vendors will now be locked to (what will apparently be yearly) DirectX versioning. Balaz admitted that this course of feature introduction would require Microsoft to work more closely with IHVs and would result in faster revisions and releases of DirectX.

Everything I've heard on this indicates the display driver model changes (VDDM mentioned above) ties very tightly with the exact same security measures you mentioned above.

DX10 is *not* build on the previous version of DX (DX9 was built on DX8, which was built on DX7, which was build on DX6...which, IIRC, was the last complete re-write of DX), but will be an entirely new re-write based on Vista's new security model.

I can't find the link, but there was a video floating around for a while that was an interview with the MS project lead for DX10, and he'd mentioned in passing that although they'd like to, there was just no way to make DX9 backwards-compatible with XP. The behavior of the operating system had just changed *too* much. (Part of why they had initially named it 'WGF 1.0', then 'WGF 2.0' - to really show it was something new entirely)

Orange.exe · Jan 23, 2006

They seem to have removed the screenshots and videos. Can someone please post them?

StalkerZER0 · Jan 23, 2006

Hey, so me planning on getting the 7900gtx for when I get the dell 3007 is not a good idea then?

Do you all think I should wait til when.......the summer? I mean for when the g80/DX10 cards come out from nvidia? Or should I buy the 7900 now? ARGH!!! Or should I just hold on to my 6800gt for now and suffer at low res with the dell 3007 until the summer when the g80 cards comes out?
ARGH!! Someone advise me?

mrkram · Jan 23, 2006

im just gonna plop a 7800gs(please god let there be an agp version!) in my P4 2.8c socket 478 mobo once they come out. after that upgrade its a complete system rebuild as amd's new socket will be out and nvidia/ati will have their new architects out. i think being patient is everyones best move right now, that is unless you've got the $$$...but for most cost conscience people its time to wait.

DarkBahamut · Jan 23, 2006

Orange.exe said:
They seem to have removed the screenshots and videos. Can someone please post them?

Yep same here, all the screenshots have gone. Lets hope someone saved a few and can slip them out again

.

Cypher19 · Jan 23, 2006

Damn I hate having to correct a lot of posts.

Are they gonna make it so that older cards, and when I say old I mean 7800gt, can support dx10, or is everyone gonna have to buy the super duper best video card to play these games?

If a game is written purely in D3D10, then a 7800GT will not run.

Yes, that is correct, even an extremely high-end card will not run any application that uses the D3D10 API and does not have a D3D9 fallback.

Long story short:
IF A GAME IS WRITTEN ONLY IN D3D10 YOU WILL HAVE TO UPGRADE YOUR VIDEO CARD!!

And no, this does not mean "a game that has some D3D10 features will run on your older card, you just won't see the eye candy". This means that if a seperate codepath for the renderer is not written in D3D10 (similar to how one would require seperate rendering systems for OpenGL and Direct3D9) then the video card that you have right now will NOT run the game. Also, D3D10 was written specifically for Vista. While it may be possible that some years from now Microsoft writes a fallback for XP, it will be a long time from now as there has been absolutely ZERO indication that this will happen. That means that if and only if you have Windows Vista and a card that supports all of D3D10's features [i.e. G80 (nVidia has said that it'll release in the 2nd half of this year) or R600 (no word on this yet)] you will not be able to run a title that is written exclusively in the D3D10 API.

Oh, and lastly, whine and bitch, fall into disbelief, whatever, it IS going to happen. Period.

theyll have really cool new features for dx10 cards only...then basically the older cards will not support these features but will still be able to run all the other features that area available to us right now

Only if the app is also written in D3D9 or OpenGL.

AFAIK DX10 is purely for DX10 cards, DX9 and older users will be using D9.0L/WGF1.0. Obviously DX10 effects will be only capable on DX10 cards.

Not just the effects, all D3D10 code will be only capable on D3D10 cards. (Pardon the redundancy, but a lot of people really need these points hammered into their skull with a jackhammer and a branding iron)

But will we have DX10 capable cards by then?

As I said earlier, we'll have the G80 out in the 2nd half of this year.

will the first generation DX10 cards even be able to handle graphics like that?

It's possible, but I only know a couple people whom I THINK have seen prototype hardware. For the most part though, I'm not sure many people know. Right now, everyone programming in D3D10 has had to do so using a "reference" driver, something that basically emulates what the hardware would do at a blistering fast 0.1fps.

If DX10 absolutely requires Vista, which I get the feeling it just might, that's the end of PC gaming for me. All Vista is is XP with a few spiffy features designed to get people to forget about the massive opportunities for privacy / rights violations.

It does, so quit PC gaming now

And Vista is more than XP with a few spiffy features. On the surface, that's what it is, but some of the behind-the-scenes work are simply A-W-E-S-O-M-E. I've heard some reps say that Vista is going to be the biggest change since 3.1 to 95, and I fully believe them.

Try being a litte more optimistic. Aren't they already running in real time?

Unless they've got access to early hardware, not really.

DX10 will NOT require Vista first off.

BZZZT! WRONG!

I can't find the link, but there was a video floating around for a while that was an interview with the MS project lead for DX10, and he'd mentioned in passing that although they'd like to, there was just no way to make DX9 backwards-compatible with XP. The behavior of the operating system had just changed *too* much.

And that my friends is why D3D10 is Vista only!

Btw, taking into account the info in this post, I find it extremely hard to believe that Crysis, if it's released this year, is D3D10 only. There would be no better way to get about zero sales. Until I hear a Crytek rep explicitly say that the game is purely D3D10, I will remain firm in the idea that it'll have a D3D9 fallback.

air2k5 · Jan 23, 2006

StalkerZER0 said:
Hey, so me planning on getting the 7900gtx for when I get the dell 3007 is not a good idea then?
Do you all think I should wait til when.......the summer? I mean for when the g80/DX10 cards come out from nvidia? Or should I buy the 7900 now? ARGH!!! Or should I just hold on to my 6800gt for now and suffer at low res with the dell 3007 until the summer when the g80 cards comes out?
ARGH!! Someone advise me?

6800GT is a very nice card still, keep it till dx10 cards come out.

air2k5 · Jan 23, 2006

Cypher is the man

Cannibal Corpse · Jan 23, 2006

Did anyone saved the images somewhere that I can see? For some reason they have taken the images and video down. thanks.

SlamDunk · Jan 23, 2006

Scans allowed in this forum? If not then go ahead and delete this post

SpoogeMonkey · Jan 23, 2006

Cypher19 said:
Btw, taking into account the info in this post, I find it extremely hard to believe that Crysis, if it's released this year, is D3D10 only. There would be no better way to get about zero sales. Until I hear a Crytek rep explicitly say that the game is purely D3D10, I will remain firm in the idea that it'll have a D3D9 fallback.

Isn't this how most other games has been coded so far? The software detects whether your hardware is dx-9 compliant, if so then all the lastest eye candy for you. If not, then it drops back to dx-7/8, etc
With the exceptions of d3, q4,sw bfII...they require 100% dx9c, but hl2 only required dx7.
I would expect most game developers to realize not many people are going to be upgrading entire systems, just to play a new tech game. I can't think of a quicker way to cutt your nuts off than to release a game with no hardware to support it. Much like MS should let ati/nvida get the vid cards out before shipping vista.

DaLurker · Jan 23, 2006

And that my friends is why D3D10 is Vista only!

D3D10 is Vista only, but Vista isn't only D3D10 right? As in Vista will support DX9 drivers, cards and games? Also they're touting the need for a 3d Accerlerator for Vista at some point. Will that accelerator need to be D3D10 as well? Or will older cards be supported?

IceWindus · Jan 23, 2006

DaLurker said:
D3D10 is Vista only, but Vista isn't only D3D10 right? As in Vista will support DX9 drivers, cards and games? Also they're touting the need for a 3d Accerlerator for Vista at some point. Will that accelerator need to be D3D10 as well? Or will older cards be supported?

If M$ even hopes to sell Vista, they had better.

SpoogeMonkey · Jan 23, 2006

Cannibal Corpse said:
Did anyone saved the images somewhere that I can see? For some reason they have taken the images and video down. thanks.

Here's a new link to the video.
Soft shadows, puffy clouds, and buildings you can drive through

stopmenow · Jan 23, 2006

huh. nice video! cool graphics indeed.

provoko · Jan 23, 2006

Pictures are gone, can anyone upload theirs if they saved a copy? Thanks.

Cypher19 · Jan 23, 2006

Isn't this how most other games has been coded so far? The software detects whether your hardware is dx-9 compliant, if so then all the lastest eye candy for you. If not, then it drops back to dx-7/8, etc

It's a little bit different with D3D10. Before, various hardware capabilities were checked typically on a per-feature basis. Meaning, a dev would have to check for things like FP texture support, FP texture blending, FP texture filtering and so on, individually. With D3D10's guaranteed feature set, all a dev has to do is check "Is this card D3D10 spec? Yes? Alright, go crazy. No? Then screw it, D3D9 for you!".

D3D10 is Vista only, but Vista isn't only D3D10 right? As in Vista will support DX9 drivers, cards and games? Also they're touting the need for a 3d Accerlerator for Vista at some point. Will that accelerator need to be D3D10 as well? Or will older cards be supported

Vista still supports D3D9 and OGL, yes. In fact, apps that have D3D9Ex (PKA D3D9.L) will likely perform faster because things are emulated using the improved D3D10 API (e.g. the notion of being "CPU-limited" will, for the most part, be thrown out the window)

SlamDunk · Jan 23, 2006

provoko said:
Pictures are gone, can anyone upload theirs if they saved a copy? Thanks.

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1028896722&postcount=55

Down8 · Jan 23, 2006

dderidex said:
See here

I didn't see anything that actually said DX10 (or some form there of) wouldn't be able to run on WinXP.

In fact, I got $10 that says it will. Someone find me when the truth is revealed - I'll pay up.

-bZj

Borgschulze · Jan 23, 2006

SlamDunk said:
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1028896722&postcount=55

Pfft, those are real pictures

dderidex · Jan 23, 2006

Down8 said:
I didn't see anything that actually said DX10 (or some form there of) wouldn't be able to run on WinXP.

In fact, I got $10 that says it will. Someone find me when the truth is revealed - I'll pay up.

Oh, yeah, that'll be out the same time as those AGP X1900 XTs everyone is waiting for

Look, there comes a point when the baseline technology has just changed TOO much for backwards compatibility to be possible.

MS is heralding Vista as a change bigger than Win98 -> WinXP and Win3.1 -> Win95. Looking at all their documentation on the basic changes to the way the OS works, the operating system core, security, driver changes, DRASTIC API and development environment changes, etc - it's easy to believe that.

Vista may not LOOK much different than WinXP...but in reality, it's completely revolutionary.

Part of Cypher's post you might have missed was regarding DX9 emulation.

Yes, EMULATION - like those console ROM emulators and such.

All previous versions of DX - DX9, DX8, DX7, etc - kept the functions from previous DX versions in them. If you ran a DX7 program with DX9 installed, it'd find all the functions it needed still there in the API.

No so with DX10 - there was no way to get those functions to work anymore!. The OS and hardware needed to change *so* much that the functions just won't work. What MS has done, as a result, is 'emulate' DX9 mode - an additional application layer loads when you want to use DX9 apps and translates the calls to DX10 functions that have roughly the same effect...but the DX9 extensions are *gone*.

(And, FWIW, it's only backwards-compatible to DX9, last I read. That means DX7 and DX8 games will not run on Vista. I really HOPE they change that...but, AFAIK, that's where it sits now.)

SatinSpiral · Jan 23, 2006

this game looks absolutely beautiful! i never would have thought graphics would come in such a short period of time

FalconSS · Jan 23, 2006

drool...

HighwayAssassins · Jan 23, 2006

damn...my next card will be a DX10 one...

Nasty_Savage · Jan 23, 2006

Its unlikely you'll see exclusive games for DX10 for awhile. My Direct x 8 card can play Direct x9 games, though obviously features are not available for it. You may start to see patches that can showcase the technology and run on the older interface as well for a few years. It would be relatively suicidal for a game company to alienate their bread and butter until enough people can upgrade to the new tech. It is also unlikely that Direct X10 will be Vista only for the same reason. Not to say its IMpossible that it would go down that way...but I doubt any game comapny would be so bold as to release a game that would undoubtedly have a small install base...at least initially.

dderidex · Jan 23, 2006

Look here, this isn't something still up in the air, DX10 WILL be VISTA ONLY.

*PERIOD*

If you read the articles on MS's ideas for Vista, you'll see why. They want the Vista "launch" to be like a 'console launch' - those are their specific words.

They want it to be available on a number of PC systems on launch day, with rock-solid stability and great features and performance, a number of 'must-have titles for Vista' (again, their words, not "must-have titles for Vista that can also run on WinXP"), etc.

Thinking DX10 will run on WinXP is delusional to the same extent as expecting the XBox360's PGR3 or 'Oblivion' to run on the original XBox.

MS just isn't interested in having that happen. They want the launch of Vista to be like a console launch - heralding a new generation of performance and applications. Heck, they are even building into the OS a vaguely XBoxLive gamecard-like thing. Keeping track of high scores, bonus content acquired, etc. Integrated game parental control levels in the OS. etc.

Again, surface reactions aside, Vista really is a HUGE step away from WinXP.

Megalomaniac · Jan 23, 2006

It might be a very bad idea to just wait for the DX10 cards.

not even going into the details of who will be able to use DX10,
there is the issue of Vista itself.

We all know that these things get pushed back and back again all the time, so there is no point in waiting for it.

if MS restricts the use of DX 10 that much so as to only allow Vista users to be able to use it, then its about time to start investing in OpenGL games (and i was looking forward to HL3)

ne0-reloaded · Jan 23, 2006

Im gonna wait for dx10 cards and games. i have a 256mb 9800 pro right now, and outside of playing cod 2 with everything cranked up, i see no reason to upgrade (which would mean an entire new pc). i just bought a 360, and will prolly buy a ps3 and revo when they drop, so i can wait no problem. ill prolly drop 2gs when the times right, but presently, theres no need to

shig · Jan 24, 2006

Down8 said:
I didn't see anything that actually said DX10 (or some form there of) wouldn't be able to run on WinXP.

In fact, I got $10 that says it will. Someone find me when the truth is revealed - I'll pay up.

-bZj

"D3D 10 will require VDDM to work"
pay up

DandyBear · Jan 24, 2006

heatlesssun said:
This has been mentioned in other forums here, but didn't see talk of it in reguards to DX10 hardware:

http://www.gamershell.com/news/27536.html

So Crytek is supposed to release Crysis this year. So as time goes on, maybe if you're thinking about upgrading this year, you might want to consider this. I know I will. I was thinking about upgrading to perhaps to 7900 SLI if its considerably faster than my 7800 SLI setup, but the more I'm thinking, I think I'm just going to build a Windows Vista at the end of the year and maybe upgrade my sig rig then too.

Wow heatlesssun, the computer industry really has you by the balls. Selling you upgrade after upgrade that you don't need. If the 7900 increases frames per second by 20 in all games youll run right out and by it? You won't be able to see a difference but yet youll still buy it

rmed64 · Jan 24, 2006

Wow, Cryengine 2 completely destroys what Unreal Engine 3 is cappable of.

Russ · Jan 24, 2006

Someone needs to get onto eliminating those stupid "features" of vista then. I REALLY don't want to have to work through all this hardware based DRM stuff that's built into vista to be able to play F.E.A.R. 2, farcry 2, etc...

|CR|Constantine · Jan 24, 2006

First there has been no word that DirectX 10 will be released when Vista is released. In my opinion your not going to see DirectX 10 at all this year. Bill Gates has hinted that Vista will still be pushed back to very late this year and word that I got from the grape vine is it's going to be late 4 Quater.

Secondly, just because DX10 comes out does not mean there are going to be any titles using it right away. We know that UT2005, ETQW and many other games will still be DX9. Crytek may have a DX10 title coming out but I bet you dollars to donuts we are not going to see it until spring next year.

Remember folks, why would a game publisher release a game that no one will have a video card for. ATI just came out with their heavy hitter and Nvidia will follow suit in the months to come. There not going to released a MAJOR leap in generations 5-7 months from now.

You want a fast card, buy the new ATI X1900XT and you will be happy for the next 1-2 years.

DougLite · Jan 24, 2006

Define "happy." Two years from now, you may well need a DX10 card to enjoy the lastest and greatest games/IQ. There are many people out there that are "happy" with 9800 Pros or even Ti 4200s out there, while others will suffer no less than a 7800GT/X1800XT or even a high-end dual card setup.

Really both sides in this argument have merit, depending on how soon you jump on the Vista train. Personally, I'll be running XP Pro for the forseeable future, even after Vista comes out. Others may wnat to hop on Vista right away. All depends on what you value in your computing experience.

Some people may want a great card now that turns into an ok card later, other people may hang on to their ok card for now and get a great card later. There are a few of us that havethe $$$$ to have a great card all the time, but we all know that is an expensive privilege.

bobthebaker · Jan 24, 2006

DougLite said:
Some people may want a great card now that turns into an ok card later, other people may hang on to their ok card for now and get a great card later.

This statement is poetry

First DX10 comming Q4!

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