FCC Wants Mobile Data to Count as Broadband Internet

Megalith

Megalith

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The FCC is proposing that both fixed and mobile networks can be counted as broadband under Section 706 of its rules, and this is terrible for a few reasons: one is that a carrier could technically deem an area as “served” even if only mobile service has been established. Mobile data is bad enough, but this would be disastrous for poor and rural areas that could really use broadband. Worse is that the FCC has suggested that people only require 10Mbps download and 1Mbps upload speeds on mobile networks.

Letting carriers like AT&T and Verizon install mobile networks and call it a day for broadband would certainly save them money. Most need to install mobile networks anyway, and building them out is cheaper than installing, say, a fiber-optic network in a rural town. Yet, mobile networks often don't suit the needs of consumers and businesses because of highly variable speeds, data caps, lack of free tethering and other issues. And if the FCC eliminates current net neutrality rules as it wants, it could further curtail consumer access to data-hungry services like Netflix and YouTube.
 
10 down and 1 up has served me well. It's not like critical services need more than that. (Weather, news, job sites)
 
Eh, it depends if mobile networks are willing to adhere to a certain latency as well as change their pricing schemes to be more like fixed broadband services. Mobile networks are almost all limited.
It wasn't just the FCC however. I'm fairly sure Verizon got away with doing this same thing. They promised to roll out fios and then stopped in the middle, claimed that the grants they got from NJ or NY (I forget which state) to roll out broadband was done if they counted their wireless service (or dsl, i forget the exact lawsuit).
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...nt-deliver-lobbies-to-drop-requirements.shtml
 
DigitalGriffin said:
10 down and 1 up has served me well. It's not like critical services need more than that. (Weather, news, job sites)
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Yeah, it's not as if the internet only has critical services. It's not a bastion of entertainment or information.
Also if your 10 down, 1 up isn't symmetrical, if you try to upload something, your download speed will come to a crawl. I remember those days on dsl, it wasn't fun.
 
As long as they exclude the mobile networks with data limits; that throttles the speed to sub 10/1 after a certain amount of data transfer, and restricts the use of tethering then I think it's fine to count mobile as broadband by definition. In other words, if it works exactly the same as the wired version it counts, otherwise it doesn't count. So if a carrier says you can't tether all your home devices to your mobile, it doesn't count, if they say we will throttle you after 2GB, it doesn't count. (I guess since no currently available mobile network works like the wired counterpart then as of today no mobile network would count as broadband ;) )
 
Hypergreatthing said:
Yeah, it's not as if the internet only has critical services. It's not a bastion of entertainment or information.
Also if your 10 down, 1 up isn't symmetrical, if you try to upload something, your download speed will come to a crawl. I remember those days on dsl, it wasn't fun.
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Entertainment is not critical to infrastructure. Sorry to burst your bubble.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Entertainment is not critical to infrastructure. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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It's a good way to have few good jobs in your area. More and more depend on a stronger more modern infrastructure, if those don't exist somewhere then those high paying jobs don't come, that's why the rust belt here is in shambles, we got little to offer for high tech business beside warehouses if lucky.

But it doesn't affect old people so it's ok, the young can just move to places like silicon valley to succeed as usual, right?
 
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10/1 is good enough for non streaming usage.

What is not acceptable is the habit of mobile in rural areas to rapidly switch from 4 bars to gone in a few minutes. Where I have a hunting lease in NW OK, mobile reception does depend on which way the wind is blowing as hundreds of giant spinning windmills do change mobile coverage as they change direction. Another comparison to consider is ping times. On line gaming can be miserable as ping times rise. And do rural cell towers have the wired connection to carry a bunch of folks dealing with the newest 6Gig Microsoft creators update while others are streaming GOT and others are downloading the next multi gig DLC for their games?

Might be good for the FCC to have a public live streamed hearing in a flyover rural area so they can experience the rich broadband experience many of us deal with daily.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Entertainment is not critical to infrastructure. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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Two out of the 3 things you listed aren't only on the internet either. How can they be considered critical by your standards?
Also, what exactly do you mean "Entertainment is not critical to infrastructure"? How are job sites critical to infrastructure?
The internet wasn't created to be critical to anything, it's a medium in which you choose to use it in a certain way.
 
Hypergreatthing said:
Two out of the 3 things you listed aren't only on the internet either. How can they be considered critical by your standards?
Also, what exactly do you mean "Entertainment is not critical to infrastructure"? How are job sites critical to infrastructure?
The internet wasn't created to be critical to anything, it's a medium in which you choose to use it in a certain way.
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  • Getting vital news to citizens is vital to infrastructure and safety. It's just as vital as an air siren is to warn somebody of an incoming tornado.
  • Job sites promote the well being of the citizens in providing opportunities to help them advance, as many companies will only post online now.
  • eCommerce (eBay, Amazon, et all) have become essential services to those in remote areas who do not have access to supplies needed.
  • Online education is an essential tool for many to further their education, training & research.
  • Email is still relevant and an essential form of communication

    None of these require more than 10Mb down 1Mb up. All of these lead services to your personal betterment which is necessary by society.
The internet has become more essential to people and their daily lives. My own sons log in daily to perform school related activities.

Definition of infrastructure said:
the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g., buildings, roads, and power supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise.
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And while entertainment consumes 1/2 of that, it's hardly essential. Netflix will run just fine on 10Mb. You can even run two 1080p streams with 10Mb. Am I going to cry a river if someone can't watch 4K on their 46" screen, or download their pirated movies, or games in 30 minutes or less? Newp.
 
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To anyone who says that all rural customers must have a physical connection to broadband, you obviously do not understand exactly how big and spread out our country is and the cost of running and maintaining the cable/fiber network would be.

The house I grew up in, in Pingree, ID, still does not have cable and probably never will.

Wireless data is the next iteration of broadband, whether you like it or not.

What we need to do is make it cheaper, that is what should be up for discussion.
 
So I'm wondering what the end goal is here. Like are they wanting to do this to claim success on something, or to levy broadband rules on mobile providers? It seems like they are trying to do something shady or at the very least move the goal posts of some other issue...
 
ob1 said:
So I'm wondering what the end goal is here. Like are they wanting to do this to claim success on something, or to levy broadband rules on mobile providers? It seems like they are trying to do something shady or at the very least move the goal posts of some other issue...
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Because of current regulation saying we need to roll out broadband to all of the US by a certain date. What a shock, the company who's ass is permanently attached to pai's lips doesn't want to invest in that (They've already pocketed taxpayer money for a rollout they never completed, and said wireless was good enough in NJ). So they want smug resses cup douche to reduce the speed required for internet to be labeled 'broadband', and also include wireless in the definition. Guess who poses to make a stupid amount of money if that passes..... All while the consumers get shittier more expensive service. GO 'MURCA!!!!
 
I totally agree with FCC. If I pay like $99 a month for unlimited broadband internet, why pay more for my mobile internet data, it should be included for both. Most providers are just a bunch of greedy people who wants to make a shit load of profits.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
10 down and 1 up has served me well. It's not like critical services need more than that. (Weather, news, job sites)
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Telemedicine is a critical service that needs more than 10 down 1 up. There's a dire shortage of physicians in rural areas, particularly specialists like radiologists. A rural hospital can greatly mitigate a lack of local physicians by having technicians perform medical imaging on patients and sending those images to offsite docs. This is just one example of why rural areas need better broadband access.

The divide between urban haves and rural have nots is dangerous to our country and this proposal will only widen the gulf.
 
Megalith said:
.............And if the FCC eliminates current net neutrality rules as it wants,..............
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Wait a second.

The FCC is talking about rolling back the Title II classification of the Internet as a Utility is he not?

I'm pretty sure that several months ago I said that this was exactly what they were going to do. The our current Congress viewed that move is improper, that they don't want the FCC regulating this, that they feel it is the proper place of the FTC to regulate these things, and that they must get the FCC to back off their power grab so that the FTC can correctly address the issues of Internet Privacy and Net Neutrality.

We actually need the FCC to role back these rulings so that the FTC is free to reapply them across the full breadth of industry and not only the ISP side of things.

I know many of you see what the FCC did before as good, but I think it was an incomplete fix, the right things to do but by the wrong agency, therefor a half-assed fix. We need to push for the FTC to step up and take this on now and not get in the way of what the FCC is doing. Fix it right and don't settle for a half-assd fix that doesn't really fix things correctly.
 
Good to see Pai standing up for the rural Americans that supported this administration sticking up for their right to be overcharged for shit service.
 
Gigantopithecus said:
Telemedicine is a critical service that needs more than 10 down 1 up. There's a dire shortage of physicians in rural areas, particularly specialists like radiologists. A rural hospital can greatly mitigate a lack of local physicians by having technicians perform medical imaging on patients and sending those images to offsite docs. This is just one example of why rural areas need better broadband access.

The divide between urban haves and rural have nots is dangerous to our country and this proposal will only widen the gulf.
Click to expand...

What kind of data are we talking about here? Is this a MRI/CAT/MCAT/PET? Even a 1 Gig file can be uploaded in 2.22 hours.
 
this poor poor country....I mean it is one of the best in the world but one of the fucking worst in the world at the same time...

and it keeps getting worse. When do we become third world...except they probably have better internet!

ALL I see this doing is allowing the big carriers to STOP dealing with land line stuff and push mobile data only...so they can rape everyone on overage charges because the ridiculous data limits they will impose.
 
lcpiper said:
Wait a second.

The FCC is talking about rolling back the Title II classification of the Internet as a Utility is he not?

I'm pretty sure that several months ago I said that this was exactly what they were going to do. The our current Congress viewed that move is improper, that they don't want the FCC regulating this, that they feel it is the proper place of the FTC to regulate these things, and that they must get the FCC to back off their power grab so that the FTC can correctly address the issues of Internet Privacy and Net Neutrality.

We actually need the FCC to role back these rulings so that the FTC is free to reapply them across the full breadth of industry and not only the ISP side of things.

I know many of you see what the FCC did before as good, but I think it was an incomplete fix, the right things to do but by the wrong agency, therefor a half-assed fix. We need to push for the FTC to step up and take this on now and not get in the way of what the FCC is doing. Fix it right and don't settle for a half-assd fix that doesn't really fix things correctly.
Click to expand...

but if the FCC actually rolls it back....what are the actual chances the FTC would actually bring them back?? I bet pretty freaking slim to none. just passing the buck around until people forget or give up and business wins.
 
mavrocket said:
To anyone who says that all rural customers must have a physical connection to broadband, you obviously do not understand exactly how big and spread out our country is and the cost of running and maintaining the cable/fiber network would be.

The house I grew up in, in Pingree, ID, still does not have cable and probably never will.

Wireless data is the next iteration of broadband, whether you like it or not.

What we need to do is make it cheaper, that is what should be up for discussion.
Click to expand...

This times a million.

It costs upwards of $50,000 per plant-mile to lay fiber in a rural environment. In urban areas, the cost can be quadruple that.

There is no way for MSOs to recover the cost of deployment in low density, rural, areas. Otherwise they would be there.

Wireless tech is the solution for those people well outside the urban markets.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
  • Getting vital news to citizens is vital to infrastructure and safety. It's just as vital as an air siren is to warn somebody of an incoming tornado.
  • Job sites promote the well being of the citizens in providing opportunities to help them advance, as many companies will only post online now.
  • eCommerce (eBay, Amazon, et all) have become essential services to those in remote areas who do not have access to supplies needed.
  • Online education is an essential tool for many to further their education, training & research.
  • Email is still relevant and an essential form of communication

    None of these require more than 10Mb down 1Mb up. All of these lead services to your personal betterment which is necessary by society.
The internet has become more essential to people and their daily lives. My own sons log in daily to perform school related activities.

And while entertainment consumes 1/2 of that, it's hardly essential. Netflix will run just fine on 10Mb. You can even run two 1080p streams with 10Mb. Am I going to cry a river if someone can't watch 4K on their 46" screen, or download their pirated movies, or games in 30 minutes or less? Newp.
Click to expand...
Just use radio or television to get vital news to citizens. If you're talking about rural areas, radio and tv has a much broader range and reach than broadband or cellular.

Job sites aren't critical. If there's little to no broadband, how do you expect people to post for jobs online?

eCommerce supplanted telephone and mail order. Just phone in your orders. Again, it's not essential, it's just easier.

Go use books. They're the best offline resource.

Of course it is, but it's not essential. Phones are however, that's a viable alternative.

There's two issues i see. Internet is only infrastructure when you're talking about the pipes and access. You specifically made it into a speed in which you deemed to be ok for everyone. If you want to circle the toilet at shit speeds and make reasons why faster speeds aren't necessary, that's all on you. A family of four utilizing the internet is going to have big problems using a 10/1 connection. Like someone stated above that advancements in medical technology require a high speed and reliable connection.

Two, the defintiion of broadband was already updated to 25/6 by the FCC. This is a deliberate rollback. The government subsidizes broadband connections in rural areas. Tax payers are already paying companies to provide these services and now it's being dialed back, but you're ok with it. That's a shitty attitude.
 
Bigbacon said:
but if the FCC actually rolls it back....what are the actual chances the FTC would actually bring them back?? I bet pretty freaking slim to none. just passing the buck around until people forget or give up and business wins.
Click to expand...

Why? One part of the government certainly thought that additional regulation was needed but they used a pretty bad method to establish it. Why is it such a leap to believe that others don't want a proper solution to the problem?

Here is a press release about the guy who might have a big hand in drafting such rules if the FTC is going to step up and back Net Neutrality and Internet Privacy reform.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...-ohlhausen-appoints-neil-chilson-acting-chief

Now I can't tell you if this is just for show and lip service bullshit or if it is a legit effort to address Privacy Issues, but time will tell.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/events-calendar/2018/02/privacycon-2018
 
DigitalGriffin said:
What kind of data are we talking about here? Is this a MRI/CAT/MCAT/PET? Even a 1 Gig file can be uploaded in 2.22 hours.
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Dude, 2.22 hours is an ETERNITY in a lot of medical scenarios. And that's assuming a stable connection will last 2.22 hours. And that's only considering the delivery of medicine - it's not even taking into account the additional hassle for all of the staff and the patient.

'This tumor might be benign or malignant. If you lived in a city, we'd know whether we caught all of cancer with last week's procedure or not in a few minutes. Since we're in BFE, you get to wonder whether you're in the clear or going to die soon for the next 2.22 hours.'
 
This type of ruling kills innovation and really lays to waste competition.....i smell alot of collusion on this. Verizon already gave up on pushing FiOS, and is sticking with mobile. Now Comcast has its out "mobile phone service" I see this as an excuse to not invest any more money into their infrastructure...they will "upgrade" their networks as they see fit. Then when they have to make changes they still pass the cost to the tax payers and current customers.
 
Unless GOV wants to pay for tree cutting and eagles with wifi booster harnesses, they need to get out of private business.
 
Gigantopithecus said:
Dude, 2.22 hours is an ETERNITY in a lot of medical scenarios. And that's assuming a stable connection will last 2.22 hours. And that's only considering the delivery of medicine - it's not even taking into account the additional hassle for all of the staff and the patient.

'This tumor might be benign or malignant. If you lived in a city, we'd know whether we caught all of cancer with last week's procedure or not in a few minutes. Since we're in BFE, you get to wonder whether you're in the clear or going to die soon for the next 2.22 hours.'
Click to expand...

So I did a little research, and 210 MB MRI is typical for something about the size of a brain. I think the patient will survive 1 day, let alone 26 minutes it would take to upload
 
Hypergreatthing said:
Just use radio or television to get vital news to citizens. If you're talking about rural areas, radio and tv has a much broader range and reach than broadband or cellular.

Job sites aren't critical. If there's little to no broadband, how do you expect people to post for jobs online?

eCommerce supplanted telephone and mail order. Just phone in your orders. Again, it's not essential, it's just easier.

Go use books. They're the best offline resource.

Of course it is, but it's not essential. Phones are however, that's a viable alternative.

There's two issues i see. Internet is only infrastructure when you're talking about the pipes and access. You specifically made it into a speed in which you deemed to be ok for everyone. If you want to circle the toilet at shit speeds and make reasons why faster speeds aren't necessary, that's all on you. A family of four utilizing the internet is going to have big problems using a 10/1 connection. Like someone stated above that advancements in medical technology require a high speed and reliable connection.
Click to expand...

This family of 4 runs just fine on 10 down and 1 up thank you. We have netflix, and hulu, as well as youtube all running at once.

And you know as fast as technology is changing that books are not the best resource for up to date information. And phones are no longer a viable alternative when you need a replacement part for something that's electronic (mouser/digikey). Let's face it, if you are part of the working world, or of educational age, or a regular shopper for rare items, you are at a disadvantage without net access. But you don't need anything faster than 10/1 for this.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
This family of 4 runs just fine on 10 down and 1 up thank you. We have netflix, and hulu, as well as youtube all running at once.

And you know as fast as technology is changing that books are not the best resource for up to date information. And phones are no longer a viable alternative when you need a replacement part for something that's electronic (mouser/digikey). Let's face it, if you are part of the working world, or of educational age, or a regular shopper for rare items, you are at a disadvantage without net access. But you don't need anything faster than 10/1 for this.
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You're at a disadvantage with 10/1, and you also don't need more than 640kb ram, true story.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Okay, lets take the flipside:

Prove how I am at a disadvantage
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Lets say in the future that VR classrooms become main stream and instead of spending an inordinate sum of money on sending your kid to school, they can still get the school experience and lectures all from the comfort of their own home. Lets say you need a lot more bandwidth then available in your area. Thanks to you not pushing for higher bandwidth when the government was pushing back on bandwidth requirements, you got by with the barest of speeds.
It's not so much of right now you can do everything you want to, it's the possibility of things coming out in the future that you will be locked out of.
Even for right now. Can you telecommute and transfer big files back and forth while the kids are at home watching multiple streams at once? You can barely transfer any files across. 1mbit upload is like 128kb a second. A simple gigabyte file would take you 133 hours to upload. Maybe you don't have a job now that requires you to transfer files and work on stuff, but there are many out there that do.
 
VR classrooms lol. Someone has been watching to many movies and lives in a wealthy area.

I am only 20 minutes outside 2 of the richest 3 counties in the country and it is all farmland and forests. No, running fiber is not the future, 5G is. Anyone watching the tech, it is pretty amazing and will make all land lines obsolete.
 
Hypergreatthing said:
Lets say in the future that VR classrooms become main stream and instead of spending an inordinate sum of money on sending your kid to school, they can still get the school experience and lectures all from the comfort of their own home. Lets say you need a lot more bandwidth then available in your area. Thanks to you not pushing for higher bandwidth when the government was pushing back on bandwidth requirements, you got by with the barest of speeds.
It's not so much of right now you can do everything you want to, it's the possibility of things coming out in the future that you will be locked out of.
Even for right now. Can you telecommute and transfer big files back and forth while the kids are at home watching multiple streams at once? You can barely transfer any files across. 1mbit upload is like 128kb a second. A simple gigabyte file would take you 133 hours to upload. Maybe you don't have a job now that requires you to transfer files and work on stuff, but there are many out there that do.
Click to expand...

I have a work product now that has 72 projects and takes 4+ hours to compile. I have zero issues working from home when I need to. The limit is actually the companies VPN pipe.

That said, your scenario is hypothetical. If that situation comes about where having more bandwidth is critical to advancement, I'm sure the rate will be raised again.
 
"How does everyone feel about data caps? Do you like data caps? I hope you like data caps, because boy, do we have some data caps for you!"


Lets roll with Verizon, because that's my carrier, there's a whole lot of rural Americana where they're the only coverage, and I'm to lazy too cross-compare.

"I'll just get an unlimited plan for my hotspot and tether that bitch within an inch of its life."

Haha...nope.
VZW TOS said:
[...]Mobile hotspot/tethering reduced to 3G speeds after 10GB/month[...]
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What's 3G speed in Verizon-land? 2.5Mbit down/1Mbit up, at best. More likely, you're looking at 1.4Mbit/0.8Mbit, which I'm pretty sure meets exactly no one's definition of "broadband".

"That sucks! Even my grandparents use more than 10GB/month! I'll just get a metered, data-only hotspot plan. I mean, it's 2017; prices for that have to be sane, right?"

Hope you have deep pockets.

It'll run you $60 for the first 10GB. Plus $50 for the 10GB after that. Plus $75/10GB thereafter, up to 100GB. (That's $710 for 100GB/month, for those keeping score...) They don't offer plans above that; presumably, you wake up in the alley behind the nearest Verizon store with a bill for $15/GB and a pair of busted kneecaps.

So, tell me again that mobile is "good enough".
 
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