Facebook And Microsoft Confirm They Have No Gender Pay Gap

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Good news for all you ladies out there! Facebook and Microsoft have joined Intel, Amazon and Apple in closing the gender pay gap. It makes you wonder if Microsoft just walked around handing out raises to the ladies or docked all the dudes. Also, it's kinda suspicious that this news comes on Equal Pay Day. :)

At this point, Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, Apple and Intel say that they now pay men and women equally. However, all those companies are still well behind other industries on overall employment diversity for female and minority workers, especially in the executive suite. If they follow Twitter's lead in the boardroom, however, the news might be better next year.

 
Yea the gap is kinda myth, things they don't discuss is reason men make more is when you take other things in to account, like time off taken. The game is pretty much non-exsistent. Women take more time off work for many reasons compared to what men do.

a man makes 70k a year for working X hours, Women thing cause they work Y hours they should get same 70k a year even if that Y hours is less then X. I don't know what messed up world some people live in to think that is fair if 2 people do exact same job.
 
Arbit3r said:
Yea the gap is kinda myth, things they don't discuss is reason men make more is when you take other things in to account, like time off taken. The game is pretty much non-exsistent. Women take more time off work for many reasons compared to what men do.

a man makes 70k a year for working X hours, Women thing cause they work Y hours they should get same 70k a year even if that Y hours is less then X. I don't know what messed up world some people live in to think that is fair if 2 people do exact same job.
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? Ionno about you but men and women work around the same amount of hours where I work. Both of them take long vacations bi-annually as well.
 
Semantics said:
? Ionno about you but men and women work around the same amount of hours where I work. Both of them take long vacations bi-annually as well.
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He's talking about time taken off to have/care for children and other 'obligations' that women feel like they have to do with families.
 
I saw a picture the other day. Said "Why is that guy making more than me?! We have the same job!"... "You've been here 3 days.".

With everything equal - time on the job, skills, position - pay should be very close to equal. And, in most places they are. Pay raises on merit, time at job, job responsibilities, etc. all contribute to pay. Even between 2 dudes.

I want to see the companies where women are treated like shit, paid less for the same jobs.
 
"at the same job title and level."

That gets around the false gender gap idea which is, all males vs all females regardless of position or qualifications. They probably didn't have to do very much, if anything to achieve this.
 
"...closing the gender pay gap."

According to the reports, there was no gap to begin with. They're just confirming what we already know: the gender pay gap is a myth. This is why I welcome any legislation that requires businesses to disclose wage data on their employees broken down by gender, just to see where the feminists will move the goal posts to next.
 
Semantics said:
? Ionno about you but men and women work around the same amount of hours where I work. Both of them take long vacations bi-annually as well.
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It's not small scale measures, it's long scale measures.

My workplace is pretty family friendly, and has paid time off for having a kid or adopting a kid. Men and women get the same time, with the same compensation scale relative to their base pay. Women tend to take 100% of that time. Men tend to take 2 weeks on average. Compensation for the extended duration is not 100% of base pay, and being absent from a performance cycle usually leaves you out of that years promotion and or raise cycle. Doesn't matter if it is extended maternity leave or disability leave or what. Which means that one demanded consideration to foster equality has a negative impact on another demanded consideration to foster equality. Same process applies to fathers who decide to take the extended leave.

Beyond that, in my professional career, I have run into a whole lot more women that have taken extended time off form their career for having a family (i.e. quit their job and returned to the work force later, not maternity leave). This is not a decision that has anything to do with the workplace. The decision to reduce your years of practical experience compared to people the same age happens int he home. You can argue it is due to sexist societal constructs, but arguing it is due to sexism in the workplace is bullshit provided the person is not being fired.

Then you add in older people who are dealing with senior parents needing care. Women get tapped as the care givers way more often than the men, and miss more work, but once again... not a sexist construct of the workplace. For the salaried workers here, this affects stress levels more as there really isn't much consideration given beyond it being an exempted way to spend both vacation time pool and sick leave time pool to care for a dependent family member. For hourly employees, it can affect take home pay once they burn through their pool of PTO.
 
I think the problem is that a lot of women try to "have it all," and don't want to sacrifice their family life for a career, but still have a successful career. I would say that any pay gap that exists is a result of women (through instinctive choice or because of social pressure, whichever you prefer) not having their full attention on the job and letting their children and other obligations distract them from building a solid career.

What really sucks in my opinion is that all this focus on women's rights has allowed companies to get away with something else... paying people so little that both parents pretty much have to work to get by. It used to be that the whole family could get by with just the man working. Now because of equal rights, it's expected that both parents will work and the kids will just have to spend a lot of time in school or daycare. Even if the women doesn't want to work, it's still pretty much "too bad, we need the money." I suspect that instead of raising women's pay much, they've just been allowing men's pay to stagnate and make it impossible for anyone to support a family on their own. There aren't many jobs these days a single mother or father could take that would support more than maybe one kid.

It always makes me wonder if certain companies were behind promoting the notion of the pay gap to excuse not raising wages for men with inflation. I suspect the next step will be pushing internship programs to the point that kids spend their High School years mostly working for companies to get credits rather than actually going to class, due to the claim that the diploma isn't worth much anyway.

It's not that I agree with minimum wage, because that devalues the salary of everyone who was already making more than the previous floor. But the cultural shift sort of forces people to live a certain way.
 
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Ryokurin said:
He's talking about time taken off to have/care for children and other 'obligations' that women feel like they have to do with families.
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I know women how have had this problem and they have no kids. In some cases they're completely unattached. It's not about kids and it's not about taking time off (beyond vacation).
 
raz-0 said:
It's not small scale measures, it's long scale measures.

My workplace is pretty family friendly, and has paid time off for having a kid or adopting a kid. Men and women get the same time, with the same compensation scale relative to their base pay. Women tend to take 100% of that time. Men tend to take 2 weeks on average. Compensation for the extended duration is not 100% of base pay, and being absent from a performance cycle usually leaves you out of that years promotion and or raise cycle. Doesn't matter if it is extended maternity leave or disability leave or what. Which means that one demanded consideration to foster equality has a negative impact on another demanded consideration to foster equality. Same process applies to fathers who decide to take the extended leave.

Beyond that, in my professional career, I have run into a whole lot more women that have taken extended time off form their career for having a family (i.e. quit their job and returned to the work force later, not maternity leave). This is not a decision that has anything to do with the workplace. The decision to reduce your years of practical experience compared to people the same age happens int he home. You can argue it is due to sexist societal constructs, but arguing it is due to sexism in the workplace is bullshit provided the person is not being fired.

Then you add in older people who are dealing with senior parents needing care. Women get tapped as the care givers way more often than the men, and miss more work, but once again... not a sexist construct of the workplace. For the salaried workers here, this affects stress levels more as there really isn't much consideration given beyond it being an exempted way to spend both vacation time pool and sick leave time pool to care for a dependent family member. For hourly employees, it can affect take home pay once they burn through their pool of PTO.
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athenian200 said:
I think the problem is that a lot of women try to "have it all," and don't want to sacrifice their family life for a career, but still have a successful career. I would say that any pay gap that exists is a result of women (through instinctive choice or because of social pressure, whichever you prefer) not having their full attention on the job and letting their children and other obligations distract them from building a solid career.

What really sucks in my opinion is that all this focus on women's rights has allowed companies to get away with something else... paying people so little that both parents pretty much have to work to get by. It used to be that the whole family could get by with just the man working. Now because of equal rights, it's expected that both parents will work and the kids will just have to spend a lot of time in school or daycare. Even if the women doesn't want to work, it's still pretty much "too bad, we need the money." I suspect that instead of raising women's pay much, they've just been allowing men's pay to stagnate and make it impossible for anyone to support a family on their own. There aren't many jobs these days a single mother or father could take that would support more than maybe one kid.

It always makes me wonder if certain companies were behind promoting the notion of the pay gap to excuse not raising wages for men with inflation. I suspect the next step will be pushing internship programs to the point that kids spend their High School years mostly working for companies to get credits rather than actually going to class, due to the claim that the diploma isn't worth much anyway.

It's not that I agree with minimum wage, because that devalues the salary of everyone who was already making more than the previous floor. But the cultural shift sort of forces people to live a certain way.
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These have to be 2 of the most straightforward and accurate statements on this subject.
 
nilepez said:
I know women how have had this problem and they have no kids. In some cases they're completely unattached. It's not about kids and it's not about taking time off (beyond vacation).
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Studies have shown that women between 22 and 30 who are childless earn MORE than males because they are likely to be college educated, among other reasons. Young Women's Pay Exceeds Male Peers'

Anecdotal evidence is a common strawman. I know someone who makes less, so they all must make less...
 
athenian200 said:
I think the problem is that a lot of women try to "have it all," and don't want to sacrifice their family life for a career, but still have a successful career. I would say that any pay gap that exists is a result of women (through instinctive choice or because of social pressure, whichever you prefer) not having their full attention on the job and letting their children and other obligations distract them from building a solid career.

What really sucks in my opinion is that all this focus on women's rights has allowed companies to get away with something else... paying people so little that both parents pretty much have to work to get by. It used to be that the whole family could get by with just the man working. Now because of equal rights, it's expected that both parents will work and the kids will just have to spend a lot of time in school or daycare. Even if the women doesn't want to work, it's still pretty much "too bad, we need the money." I suspect that instead of raising women's pay much, they've just been allowing men's pay to stagnate and make it impossible for anyone to support a family on their own. There aren't many jobs these days a single mother or father could take that would support more than maybe one kid.

It always makes me wonder if certain companies were behind promoting the notion of the pay gap to excuse not raising wages for men with inflation. I suspect the next step will be pushing internship programs to the point that kids spend their High School years mostly working for companies to get credits rather than actually going to class, due to the claim that the diploma isn't worth much anyway.

It's not that I agree with minimum wage, because that devalues the salary of everyone who was already making more than the previous floor. But the cultural shift sort of forces people to live a certain way.
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Well, it is possible to support a 5 person family with a single income even if you are only making in the 40-50k range (depending on where you live). You just have to live within your means and be somewhat wise about how you spend your money.

The only "debt" we have is our mortgage. An although we don't have the best of everything, it is not a big deal.

The big problem is that most everybody has gotten themselves in debt up to their eyeballs and have so many monthly payments that they have a very hard time getting their finances straightened out.
 
I've seen women turn down opportunities to earn more at a higher rate than men, due to the stress involved in higher paid positions- and I don't think that this is an uncommon sentiment. My case (and anecdotal, obviously) involved UPS, which is high stress for entry-level employees, and it only gets worse for every level of management above that.

(I'll note that I mean fewer women were in higher paid positions, but from what I could tell, women were paid as well or better in positions that didn't have predetermined salaries)
 
All things are wonderful on the gravey train. When that changes we'll see how equal things stay.
 
Ryokurin said:
Studies have shown that women between 22 and 30 who are childless earn MORE than males because they are likely to be college educated, among other reasons. Young Women's Pay Exceeds Male Peers'
Anecdotal evidence is a common strawman. I know someone who makes less, so they all must make less...
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Everyone in this scenario has a minimum of a BS and that's certainly the case for virtually everyone working at FB or MS. I'd never compare people with different levels of education (especially if they're new hires). I had a friend, whose probably smarter than you and I, and she actually had a boss say in a meeting that he didn't think women should be Engineers! The disparity may not be just from that. Maybe a lot is from women taking time off, but make no mistake, women are discriminated in these environments. In my life, I've never seen a case where being a guy was a disadvantage for Engineers.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
I've seen women turn down opportunities to earn more at a higher rate than men, due to the stress involved in higher paid positions- and I don't think that this is an uncommon sentiment. My case (and anecdotal, obviously) involved UPS, which is high stress for entry-level employees, and it only gets worse for every level of management above that.

(I'll note that I mean fewer women were in higher paid positions, but from what I could tell, women were paid as well or better in positions that didn't have predetermined salaries)
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Ton of truth in that. I always tell them that they work and deliver in a different world than the rest of us. Pay is equal, but their stress is higher across the board.
 
nilepez said:
I had a friend, whose probably smarter than you and I, and she actually had a boss say in a meeting that he didn't think women should be Engineers! The disparity may not be just from that. Maybe a lot is from women taking time off, but make no mistake, women are discriminated in these environments.
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What should be highlighted here is not that this was said, because there are real, physiological reasons at play- what should be highlighted is *why* someone might say that. Extending my example from UPS above, men and women tended to gravitate toward different jobs at the same level and paygrade, and in general there was a gender preference for different jobs- some jobs women seemed to be better on average at, others men.

Engineering is different in that there's likely less physical labor involved (less of pick up that 100lb package and move it over there, etc.), but there are real differences in the way men and women 'think'. While I wouldn't hesitate to label your friend's boss as a typical misogynist if I had to take a guess, it's worth pointing out that this boss may have had first-hand anecdotal (though likely not representative) experience that led him to that conclusion, and further, that there may be a real, psychological or physiological reason for that experience.

Understanding those differences between sexes when it comes to problem solving is important, not only because it can prevent issues like the above and their destructive effects, but also allow leaders to leverage gender diversity. I think that our current campaign to integrate women into military combat positions will yield fruits for this endeavor particularly- there's no room for political correctness when bullets are flying ;).
 
IdiotInCharge said:
What should be highlighted here is not that this was said, because there are real, physiological reasons at play- what should be highlighted is *why* someone might say that. Extending my example from UPS above, men and women tended to gravitate toward different jobs at the same level and pay grade, and in general there was a gender preference for different jobs- some jobs women seemed to be better on average at, others men.

Engineering is different in that there's likely less physical labor involved (less of pick up that 100lb package and move it over there, etc.), but there are real differences in the way men and women 'think'. While I wouldn't hesitate to label your friend's boss as a typical misogynist if I had to take a guess, it's worth pointing out that this boss may have had first-hand anecdotal (though likely not representative) experience that led him to that conclusion, and further, that there may be a real, psychological or physiological reason for that experience.

Understanding those differences between sexes when it comes to problem solving is important, not only because it can prevent issues like the above and their destructive effects, but also allow leaders to leverage gender diversity. I think that our current campaign to integrate women into military combat positions will yield fruits for this endeavor particularly- there's no room for political correctness when bullets are flying ;).
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It was brought to the attention of management/HR and things only got worse. She subsequently worked for 2 very well known studios working on animation s/w. Life goes on, but saying this stuff isn't an issue is untrue....that was only one example, I've got others. I will say where I"m currently at there are some women in prominent roles, which is encouraging (one of the few encouraging things about this place).
 
nilepez said:
It was brought to the attention of management/HR and things only got worse. She subsequently worked for 2 very well known studios working on animation s/w. Life goes on, but saying this stuff isn't an issue is untrue....that was only one example, I've got others. I will say where I"m currently at there are some women in prominent roles, which is encouraging (one of the few encouraging things about this place).
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I'm not saying that it's untrue (reread what I wrote, I said quite the contrary) but rather that addressing gender bias requires understanding where it comes from. Even rank misogyny has its foundations in very real differences between the sexes, and at some point (my example being women integrating into combat units) we'll get around to figuring out how to make use of those differences, instead of tiptoeing around them hoping to not offend anyone (at best) like we're doing today.
 
nilepez said:
Everyone in this scenario has a minimum of a BS and that's certainly the case for virtually everyone working at FB or MS. I'd never compare people with different levels of education (especially if they're new hires). I had a friend, whose probably smarter than you and I, and she actually had a boss say in a meeting that he didn't think women should be Engineers! The disparity may not be just from that. Maybe a lot is from women taking time off, but make no mistake, women are discriminated in these environments. In my life, I've never seen a case where being a guy was a disadvantage for Engineers.
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I'm not saying they aren't, but it isn't systematic as we are taught to believe. The belief that you can't achieve is just as bad as actual sexism and discourages just the same.
 
nilepez said:
Everyone in this scenario has a minimum of a BS and that's certainly the case for virtually everyone working at FB or MS. I'd never compare people with different levels of education (especially if they're new hires). I had a friend, whose probably smarter than you and I, and she actually had a boss say in a meeting that he didn't think women should be Engineers! The disparity may not be just from that. Maybe a lot is from women taking time off, but make no mistake, women are discriminated in these environments. In my life, I've never seen a case where being a guy was a disadvantage for Engineers.
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And you can find examples of men being treated as such, or whole fields that if you are a man, you will not even get an interview, and jobs where a man is passed up because they need to hit their "quota" when the person better suited for the job was the man....But no one wants to talk about this.

It has also been shown time and time again, most woman take less demanding jobs, take more time off, and in many cases leave the work field for extend amounts of time, if not permanently, often because of having kids. Women also get extra treatment, extra time off that for men is not even a consideration. And women who chose to work and not have kids often make more than men. I work in a field that caters to oil and gas, probably one of the biggest "mans world" fields out there, yet we have women all over, the VP of my department is a woman. I have never actually seen a woman lose out on a job etc based on sex, every case has been because the other person was better, I have seen cases of people losing out on a job based on race however, but it was a white person, and they needed to have a few more "minorities" at the site, so the guy we ALL wanted for the job and had every cert and qualification you could ask for, didn't get the job, the guy that was hired (black) is useless, no idea what he is doing and lazy as hell, the best part? The two black guys here before these new ones hired on hate him the most, they often refer to him as the "bitch ass, lazy motherfucker".

The idea that better suited women are getting paid less and no one wants them makes NO sense, as any company who sees someone is willing to work for less, but does the job better, would do nothing but hire women, as it would be the better investment, however that is just not the case.

I also had this talk with our VP, and she even said its BS, she is married, but childless, never left the job field for anything and has made this her carrier. And has been quite successful at it, and sits on the peer board in many of the industries standard organizations. There are few women at these places, but they are treated the same as everyone else, the main reason you find so few women in these fields are not many chose to go into science or technology fields, which pay quite well, but again, this comes back to women often picking less demanding or involved jobs, as they can leave for child raising and come back without much change, or the jobs are very flexible for time off.
 
Armenius said:
Social justice is about equality of outcome, not of opportunity, so of course a lot of their goals and tenets are rooted in Marxism.
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I'm not going to argue against that; most of the SJW stuff I see isn't very well rooted in reality.

But when looking at disparities of outcome, it's not unworthy to try and find disparities of opportunity, and determine whether or not those disparities can or should be addressed. I think most researchers and many policy advocates take the latter outlook, while your keyboard-warrior SJWs and lawmakers pandering for votes typically take perspective you describe.
 
Ryokurin said:
I'm not saying they aren't, but it isn't systematic as we are taught to believe. The belief that you can't achieve is just as bad as actual sexism and discourages just the same.
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I don't know women that think they can't achieve. If you read these forums, there's regularly statements that essentially say women aren't good at programming (or whatever your favorite IT job is). The same goes for minorities.
 
nilepez said:
I don't know women that think they can't achieve. If you read these forums, there's regularly statements that essentially say women aren't good at programming (or whatever your favorite IT job is). The same goes for minorities.
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Think of it more like this.

We need more women in STEM fields, so a woman looks into that. And then she hears it's a boys club, men will systematically try to keep her from achieving because of patriarchy, she can expect retaliation for anything, she'll never be respected, have to fight to be heard, etc. A whole bunch of generalizations and worse case scenarios and don't dare any man to say anything different because it's just mansplaining and ignoring you. If they even decide to go for it anyways they are already on guard, so anything that goes wrong they are already going to assume that it's because they are a woman and when they jump to conclusions the stereotypes about women in STEM circle jerk continues.

For every place out there that's sexist and terrible for women there's probably a place where women are treated fairly and with respect, just like anyone else.
 
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