Extreme Water Cooling Challenge!

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annaconda

[H]F Junkie
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Apr 13, 2005
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Alright guys, i have been doing some research for Extreme Water cooling setup that can beat any water cooling out there. I will also compare it directly to my Thermaltake BigWater 745 to end all the fuss about how good is it or not.

My price range is less than or equal to $200 or we see about that, but i am looking for best products for cheapest possible.

I will start with my research.

CPU Blocks.

1. SWIFTECH APOGEE EXTREME = $50 at SVC.
2. AquaXtreme MP-1 Universal CPU Water Block = $48 at Petra's Tech Shop
3. AquaXtreme White Water Limited Edition Universal CPU Water Block = $37 at Petra's Tech Shop.

Pumps.

1. MCP655 / D5 12v DC Pump = $75

Radiators:

1. Swiftech MCR-320 "Quiet Power" Series Radiator = $49

GPU Block.

1. Maze D4 =$50
2. Swiftech MCW60B=$50

Tubbing.

1. 7/16" ID (5/8" OD) Tygon R-3603 Laboratory-Grade Tubing = $2.99

Reservior:

I don;t know which one will be good.

Please let me know how can i make it good or any changes, plus which CPU water block should i choose, and is the radiator is fine plus what about the price. See if you can find better prices.
 
I will also compare it directly to my Thermaltake BigWater 745
Click to expand...
Great. Then you TT lovers will give up the argument and move on? Sheesh. I have two systems, one with full TT (other than GPU block) and one all DD. What is better than first hand experience?
 
DarthBeavis said:
Great. Then you TT lovers will give up the argument and move on? Sheesh. I have two systems, one with full TT (other than GPU block) and one all DD. What is better than first hand experience?
Click to expand...


Looks like you could not wait for my update. I already have GPU block in my loop with TTbigwater745, and i will use the same computer with same GPU block with other water cooling kit, which i am trying to built.
 
recycled from a recent thread:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=27367&category_id=3859&pcid1=2181
http://www.petrastechshop.com/swstexpeunwa.html
http://www.petrastechshop.com/dadenblicepr1.html
http://www.petrastechshop.com/7id5odmagepu.html 12 feet
http://www.petrastechshop.com/ststwohocl.html twelve clamps
http://www.petrastechshop.com/1odtf1and7id.html

that should be damn hard to beat and runs about $200 plus shipping.

to get the price down a hair, http://www.petrastechshop.com/aqmpproliedu.html instead of the storm.

to drop the price a good bit more, http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=33561&category_id=4025&pcid1=2181 instead of the eheim.

*edit: you should probably switch pumps if you need to get the price down, before switching CPU blocks.
 
Ok thats what i am getting with shipping included for these parts, tell me why would i need T line instead of Reservior.

Swiftech MCR-320 "Quiet Power" Series Radiator - Black 49.99

1 = Laing D5/Swiftech MCP655 Inline 12vDC Pump 74.99

1 = Swiftech HydrX Extreme Duty Coolant 2.99
12 = Stainless Steel Worm-Drive Hose Clamp 12.00
12 = 7/16" ID (5/8" OD) Masterkleer General Purpose Clear PVC Tubing 5.88

Subtotal: 145.85
Shipping: 10.38*
Tax: 0.00
Total: 156.23



* Includes Shipping & Handling Fees
 
At Petra's, the Masterkleer is 49c per foot. At Mcmaster, it goes for 39c.
 
annaconda said:
Ok thats what i am getting with shipping included for these parts, tell me why would i need T line instead of Reservior.
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t-line is cheaper and it works fine. you want to do things cheap, hence i put up a T-line instead of a res.
 
annaconda said:
Alright guys, i have been doing some research for Extreme Water cooling setup that can beat any water cooling out there...

My price range is less than $200
Click to expand...
Wow, I just stopped right there. Nothing extreme with a $200 budget, sorry. The best extreme pump (Iwaki RD-30) will cost you upwards of $300 with the 24v PSU it requires.

Your post is the best oxymoron yet. Kinda like wanting a non-drowsy sleeping pill :rolleyes:
 
nikhsub1 said:
Wow, I just stopped right there. Nothing extreme with a $200 budget, sorry. The best extreme pump (Iwaki RD-30) will cost you upwards of $300 with the 24v PSU it requires.

Your post is the best oxymoron yet. Kinda like wanting a non-drowsy sleeping pill :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
i know it, you konw it, but it might get him to stop singing the praises of the bigwater so let's just hope that something good comes from it.
 
nikhsub1 said:
Wow, I just stopped right there. Nothing extreme with a $200 budget, sorry. The best extreme pump (Iwaki RD-30) will cost you upwards of $300 with the 24v PSU it requires.

Your post is the best oxymoron yet. Kinda like wanting a non-drowsy sleeping pill :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

lol, looks like you did not read the started thread. If you want to spend $300 then there are lots of options, and how the hell are you going to compare $300 cooling with $135. You should take the red pill. :D

Ok if you want to help finding good prices then speak and give me your thoughts, if you want to be like nikhsub1 who might have alot of money and no common sense of comparing then please pass.


Alright DFI Daishi its you and mean bro, i just wanna let you know i am not playing i am going to other things today, and i want every one to know. I will post the results with pictures to let every one know what is the difference between Thermaltake Big Water 745 and Custome made kit with according to every one is better.

But keep one thing in mind if the result is less than 10C and cost is more or equal to $100 over Thermaltake BigWater 745, then you guys know what to do.

Alright then please see if you guys can find better prices, and better products for less. My concern is why Swiftech Strom is more expensive then Swiftech Apogee Extreme, because i am looking at Swiftech's website they claim it will perform better than Strom.

And i think reservior will give better performance than T-line, so please tell me which one and from where, plus we need to find the fans also, quiteness + performance is the main concern. We are already doing really good, we are crossing $200 but that is fine, but extreme water cooling is my concern with the best price i can find out.
 
annaconda said:
Alright then please see if you guys can find better prices, and better products for less. My concern is why Swiftech Strom is more expensive then Swiftech Apogee Extreme, because i am looking at Swiftech's website they claim it will perform better than Strom.
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a somewhat controversial independant review showed otherwise: http://www.systemcooling.com/swiftech_apogee-01.html

it's not going to be more than 10 C difference, probably less, and the thermal diode in your CPU doesn't tell you anything other than when your CPU is getting into OMFG territory and your system might not be thermally limited in terms of peak OC and you thermal paste application has a huge impact on results, and clamping pressure affects like 8 variables influencing performance and you have not selected the quietest pump for waterccooling, and you have not listed the fans you plan on using etc....etc......

this isn't going to be a final and telling "what is better once and for all" kind of thread.
 
annaconda said:
And i think reservior will give better performance than T-line, so please tell me which one and from where, plus we need to find the fans also, quiteness + performance is the main concern. We are already doing really good, we are crossing $200 but that is fine, but extreme water cooling is my concern with the best price i can find out.
Click to expand...
res doesn't perform any better than T-line. the only difference is the way in which you fill your loop: get it totally full all at once with a res, and leave it to leak test, or get it mostly full and let the remaining air bleed out during the leak test with the T-line.

yate loon 120mm fan is well regarded. a few people have had really positive things to say about the sony s-flex 120mm fans.
 
DFI Daishi said:
a somewhat controversial independant review showed otherwise: http://www.systemcooling.com/swiftech_apogee-01.html

it's not going to be more than 10 C difference, probably less, and the thermal diode in your CPU doesn't tell you anything other than when your CPU is getting into OMFG territory and your system might not be thermally limited in terms of peak OC and you thermal paste application has a huge impact on results, and clamping pressure affects like 8 variables influencing performance and you have not selected the quietest pump for waterccooling, and you have not listed the fans you plan on using etc....etc......

this isn't going to be a final and telling "what is better once and for all" kind of thread.
Click to expand...


Dude why i am getting a feeling that you are backing off. First of all every where i go and every thread i read i hear MCP655 is the best pump for overclockers, and extreme cooling. I am building a kit according to you, i will use the best fans as you will mention, i already picked the best part like,

1. Swiftech's Triple 120mm fan radiator = $49.
2. Swiftech's Apogee Extreme = $55 shipped at svc.com or Strom = $80
3. MCP655 pump.= $75.
4. MCW60B Gpu Block = $50 shipped at newegg.com
5. 7/16" tunning (12 feet) = $12.
6. 12 clamps = $12.
7. Yate loon fans = $5.99 per fan.(lets say six) = $36.
8. Swiftech Coolent = $2.99

So you are now saying after spending $320 for this water cooling, which nikhsub1 thinks is not extreme i hope he took the red pill by now.

Now you are telling me that the difference will not be more than 10c, between $320 kit and $135 kit then what is the point of getting this?

I already have my Opteron 165@ 2.8ghz, i don;t think it will go above this and temperatures are with Thermaltake BigWater 745:

Opteron @ 2.8ghz = 30C idle and 44C load with
X1900XT @ 700 / 800 in the loop with almost same temperatures like = 31C and 44C Load.

And if you think the price difference of $185 is nothing to you as compare to getting 5C better cooling, and now you are telling me that MCP655 is not quite pump, then you should get thermaltake's pump with is almost near silent.

Now you tell me DFI Daishi and all others who are in favour of Custome kits or other brand kits, do you have courage to buy thermaltake bigwater 745 and let me know the difference? because i really wanna end this once and for all. :)
 
Thermal diodes may not be very accurate. But I think their readings shouldn't completley disregarded. They usually go in the right direction when ambient temp increases. And I think the difference in kits will be big enough to show something. But it will by no means be exact.

As far as the apogee vs storm goes, search the forums. You'll find some nice reading material with LOTS of arguing. This isn't going to happen here.
 
My suggestion is to keep your bigwater 745 and be happy. Very well known there are better W/C componets out there than TT. But if you are looking for 10C difference then you need to climb back up that tree you fell out of. Many people are very happy with less than the best.
 
annaconda said:
Dude why i am getting a feeling that you are backing off. First of all every where i go and every thread i read i hear MCP655 is the best pump for overclockers, and extreme cooling. I am building a kit according to you, i will use the best fans as you will mention, i already picked the best part like,

*snip*

So you are now saying after spending $320 for this water cooling, which nikhsub1 thinks is not extreme i hope he took the red pill by now.

Now you are telling me that the difference will not be more than 10c, between $320 kit and $135 kit then what is the point of getting this?

I already have my Opteron 165@ 2.8ghz, i don;t think it will go above this and temperatures are with Thermaltake BigWater 745:

Opteron @ 2.8ghz = 30C idle and 44C load with
X1900XT @ 700 / 800 in the loop with almost same temperatures like = 31C and 44C Load.

And if you think the price difference of $185 is nothing to you as compare to getting 5C better cooling, and now you are telling me that MCP655 is not quite pump, then you should get thermaltake's pump with is almost near silent.

Now you tell me DFI Daishi and all others who are in favour of Custome kits or other brand kits, do you have courage to buy thermaltake bigwater 745 and let me know the difference? because i really wanna end this once and for all. :)
Click to expand...
top performer, yes. it's also quiet enough for most. it's not quiet enough for everyone. is should be on the same level as an idle, spinning, WD HDD. that's enough that i can hear it, but i'm not bothered by it. some people bitch about how loud their drives are, i don't know if that describes you or not.

for me, quiet when watercooling should mean that you sometimes ask yourself "is it on?" before waking up the monitor from sleep mode.

as to nikhsub1 and his views on what is extreme: he has the gear and the record set to back it up. whether you see eye to eye with that is another matter, but he doesn't screw around when he builds computers that he describes as "the essence of overkill."

as to the size of the difference in temps.....what, you think that you can get down to room temperature all of a sudden? no matter what you do with straight watercooling, you can never get down to room temp. the closer you get, the more work you have to do in order to get any lower. that kind of the way that the physics of the situation work.

innovative, complex and expensive designs are needed to get as close to room temperature as possible. that's why the top end gear is pretty dear.

if you want to go farther, you have to move outside the box and then you're into extreme cooling territory: pelt or phase change. i do the former.

i have the best cooling that i could afford when i built it. i'm not working full time any more, and tuitioin eats up about all that i earn working summers. i know that my gear handily outperforms a custom water loop or a bigwater, and thermaltake is not a company that i would ever choose to give money to. so, that's about $200 CDN that's not going to be spent on a Tt bigwater, now or ever.
 
It's all thermodynamics...To get below ambient temps, you literally need work (ie: joules, force*distance etc).

Technically you don't need work to get to actual room temperature. It's just the way entropy works. :D
 
CoW]8(0) said:
It's all thermodynamics...To get below ambient temps, you literally need work (ie: joules, force*distance etc).

Technically you don't need work to get to actual room temperature. It's just the way entropy works. :D
Click to expand...
the pump is doing work. increased flow/work from the pump reduces the deltas throughout the loop. increased work in a proper and formal sense nets improved temps.

more work in the sense of the common usage in terms of more advanced designs and carefully selected parts is also valid.

i really meant both, and just using the term work covers about everything i meant.

no hard feeling about it, i just like using double meanings when i can come up with them. :D
 
Yes, the fans and the pump are certainly doing work, but it's not necessary for the process to occur. Heat transfer naturally goes from hot -> cold. Technically, you could use this process (ie the heat of our CPU) to generate energy. (IIRC, there was an article where this idea was considered in liquid metal cooling systems).

The work energy you're speaking of is more in the sense of heat conductivity. Something I'm not too familiar with :)

But in the thermodynamics sense, the only time you HAVE to use work when you want below ambient temperatures (ie the energy used in air conditioners, peltiers). But these processes aren't very efficient at all...
 
1. Swiftech's Triple 120mm fan radiator = $49.
2. Swiftech's Apogee Extreme = $55 shipped at svc.com or Strom = $80
3. MCP655 pump.= $75.
4. MCW60B Gpu Block = $50 shipped at newegg.com
5. 7/16" tunning (12 feet) = $12.
6. 12 clamps = $12.
7. Yate loon fans = $5.99 per fan.(lets say six) = $36.
8. Swiftech Coolent = $2.99
Click to expand...

1. A triple is a bit on the excessive side, but they go for $45 on Dangerden for the black Ice pro's, and $57 for the extreme's. A Black ice pro 2x is $34.

2. MP-05 is cheaper, at dtek they go for $40. Or, you could save a little more and get a WhiteWater for $30.

3. Good choice. Another alternative is the DDC+ 18v.

4. Dangerden Maze4 goes for $45

5. It's $.39 per foot at Mcmaster. Twelve feet would be under $5.

6. Home depot has them for under 50 cents each. That's about another $5.

7. Three would be enough, in a pull config. That's $18.

8. Distilled water + a splash of anti-corrosion: Next to nothing.
 
annaconda said:
I already have my Opteron 165@ 2.8ghz, i don;t think it will go above this and temperatures are with Thermaltake BigWater 745:

Opteron @ 2.8ghz = 30C idle and 44C load with
X1900XT @ 700 / 800 in the loop with almost same temperatures like = 31C and 44C Load.
Click to expand...

I love it when people post "it cools my 765.99 ghz overclocked cpu'" but they don't post what voltage it runs at since that's what matters when it comes to heat, not what clock speed it runs at.
 
LOWBOY said:
My suggestion is to keep your bigwater 745 and be happy. Very well known there are better W/C componets out there than TT. But if you are looking for 10C difference then you need to climb back up that tree you fell out of. Many people are very happy with less than the best.
Click to expand...


Yup, like ALL of them
 
err annaconda: whats your ambient temperature? cos if your ambient is already say 25-6ish, then even the worlds best water cooling woulnd;t be able to give you your 10 degree difference,
the very best water cooling system can bring your system down to around 1-2 above room temp.

so before you go and spend the 300 bucks measure your ambient temp first otherwise its a pointless waste of money
 
Volkum said:
I love it when people post "it cools my 765.99 ghz overclocked cpu'" but they don't post what voltage it runs at since that's what matters when it comes to heat, not what clock speed it runs at.
Click to expand...


CPU Voltage = 1.423 = Opteron165@ 2.8ghz

GPU voltage = Stock = X1900XT 700/800
 
annaconda, I didn't mean to be an ass, but your thread was VERY misleading. Your thread title I'm sure was edited... anyway, your original thread/title was wanting the most extreme WC gear, but with one caveat, $200 or less... That is just not possible was my point. With that said, you can get a very good setup for that price, but extreme it will be not.

Choice of WB, Apogee, Cooltechnica TDX etc isn't going to make 'that' much difference. I would get the Apogee probably with your budget, or try to find a MCW6002 which IMO is a much better block, try to find one used? For a rad it depends on your space, but again with budget in mind I'd get the BIP2 or 3 or the new GT series dual or tripple. Vid block the MP-01 AquaXtreme is a very nice block, I have one and love it. Tubing, if you are on a budget, go for the 7/16" Masterkleer from www.mcmaster.com it's like $.50/foot or so. Use metal worm style clamps, not those plastic garbage clamps. The D5 is the likely choice for a pump unless you want to mod a DDC+ or buy an additional $30 highflow top.
 
nikhsub1 said:
Wow, I just stopped right there. Nothing extreme with a $200 budget, sorry. The best extreme pump (Iwaki RD-30) will cost you upwards of $300 with the 24v PSU it requires.

Your post is the best oxymoron yet. Kinda like wanting a non-drowsy sleeping pill :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I believe his idea is to get all the "I can build a DIY kit for $XXX that can blow away the TT XXX Kit" to put their money where their mouth is.
 
Stellar said:
I believe his idea is to get all the "I can build a DIY kit for $XXX that can blow away the TT XXX Kit" to put their money where their mouth is.
Click to expand...
and some of us did.

it was only when he started to get some idea what "blowing out of the water" might equate to in terms of degrees celcius that he started to get cold feet.

additionally, in response to your own request, but before you made it an acutal challenge, i put up some gear, most from the same online store even.

i also had some pretty positive things to say about the swiftech kit you put up, along with the only real downside that i could think of. it runs more than the bigwater, it runs more than what i put up, but it's a fine kit all in all.

in spite of you quoting this post, he went on to explain in his second why he said what he did, and i think that's fair given the original thread title.
 
Don't be mislead, I wasn't attacking you or anybody else. Only explaining what I believe was his intention, because I admit I've also been quite skeptical myself about all the claims made by the DIY'ers. Seems they leave a lot of details out and tend to paint the rosiest, self-serving picture of a DIY H20 system.

I've ordered the H20-120 Premium Kit, we'll see how it stacks up against the 745.. then again it cost me $70 more so it's not exactly an apples to apples comparo.
 
fair enough. about the only thing that i can think of of the top of my head to change out of that kit (assuming that it arrives intact and in good order) is the fan they inculde with it.

the included delta is a solid, durable, long-lived fan. i'm really quite fond of delta fans, actually. it isn't exactly silent. i'll admit that the fan i most often reccomend is the cheap yate loon 120mm, run off or a motherboard header or other fan control device isn't exactly dear. however, if you're still using a stock (active) cooler on your vid card you might not even notice the difference it would make.

the DDC pump included with the kit is very quiet. it's not the quietest, but very quiet all the same. a fan to match makes a lot of sense in an otherwise quiet system.
 
DFI Daishi said:
some people bitch about how loud their drives are, i don't know if that describes you or not.
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Silly kids. Toss a couple of Delta screamers in your rig, and you won't have to deal with annoying hard drive noise!

The DDC is still a workhorse pump despite its decibel rating. I'd say it's likely that it's a more economically viable component for Swiftech to include in their budget-ish kits, and I think we're all familiar with their preference for 3/8" ID tubing (so their PCI pass-through plates can be used if a RadBox is also used).

I'd say the Yate Loon is near the absolute bottom end in terms of effective performance. Quiet, sure - I have four of them in my rig now, but not highly effective. The Delta they include isn't overly loud, and is likely more of an ideal match for the radiator's characteristics. They also don't exhibit any issues when being undervolted, so the end-user can always tune to preference.
 
as i said, i quite like delta fans. i have several of them kicking around. they are good fans.

all that i am saying is that when you make "it's as quiet as i can make it" your priority, the yate loon fan has a definite allure.

i use panaflo fans and raptor drives because i'm largely concerned about high performance (within my present budget) and moderate noise. these components don't suit someone who is looking for low noise opperation.

that being said........having heard the much hearalded samsung spinpoint-p drives in person......i'll immediately concede that frequency of noise has as much to do with level of noise when it comes to "what bothers you" about the noise your computer makes.
 
I like the Delta's too. Especially the TFB1212GHE's.120x38, 220cfm 65db goodness.

I went with soft-mounted seagate drives, undervolted silverstone fm121's, and a ton of soundproofing. It's super quiet.
 
You guys are insane...I'll stick with my Yate Loons. IMO, one of the reasons to go water is to reduce noise.
 
nikhsub1 said:
Wow, I just stopped right there. Nothing extreme with a $200 budget, sorry. The best extreme pump (Iwaki RD-30) will cost you upwards of $300 with the 24v PSU it requires.

Your post is the best oxymoron yet. Kinda like wanting a non-drowsy sleeping pill :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

LOL I agree our waterblocks cost more than his entire proposed system.

My loop isn't as nice as yours, but nothing too shabby:

Silver Storm G5
Dangerden Chrome GPU Block
2x MCP600 (going for silence)
Thermochill PA.120.3
5v Yate Loons
When I had the DFI in I was watercooling SLI and NB too.

$200 is naught but a drop in the bucket for a true top of the line watercooling system.
 
computerpro3 said:
LOL I agree our waterblocks cost more than his entire proposed system.

My loop isn't as nice as yours, but nothing too shabby:

Silver Storm G5
Dangerden Chrome GPU Block
2x MCP600 (going for silence)
Thermochill PA.120.3
5v Yate Loons
When I had the DFI in I was watercooling SLI and NB too.

$200 is naught but a drop in the bucket for a true top of the line watercooling system.
Click to expand...
i went a totally differemt route, but i largely agree.

all the same, it seems that the OP is not longer interested in this enterprise.

watercooling offers pretty lousy value for your money.......so, i say, if you're going to do it, do it right. push the envelope as far as you can push it in the direction you want to go, be it looks, performance, or silence.

to the hilt, my comrads!

death before dignity!
 
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