EU Asks Microsoft to Remove Vista Security Features

*sigh* It appears that the firewall software companies have bribed the EU. Why would one want to keep a monopolist in check?
 
So, in a week or so, there will be a matching article of some company or media outlet raking Microsoft over the coals for removing the security features. As I've said a million times to all the sheep who bash Microsoft...no matter what they do...someone will bitch and complain about them. If they tucked $1000 bills into the retail Vista boxes...someone, somewhere would still find something to complain about because it's MicroShaft, aka M$. :(
 
drizzt81 said:
*sigh* It appears that the firewall software companies have bribed the EU. Why would one want to keep a monopolist in check?
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If the firewall companies can't bring something to the table that is better than what Microsoft has to offer out of the box, that's their problem. Microsoft are finally starting to do serious work in providing the tools neccessary to keep malware and such problems to a minimal and they get penalised for it.

Personally, if they want to include certain out-of-the-box software, all the power to them.
 
The Donut said:
Personally, if they want to include certain out-of-the-box software, all the power to them.
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I agree, completely. For the 90% or so computer users out there who don't understand security software, why not build it in to the OS? Those 90% are the ones most responsible for having zombie PCs and spreading e-mail viruses.
 
The Donut said:
If the firewall companies can't bring something to the table that is better than what Microsoft has to offer out of the box, that's their problem. Microsoft are finally starting to do serious work in providing the tools neccessary to keep malware and such problems to a minimal and they get penalised for it.

Personally, if they want to include certain out-of-the-box software, all the power to them.
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The problem is that software companies may have a better product, but due to the leverage that microsoft has over its OS, they may soon not have a market anymore. I do understand that many of you -for a good reason- say that microsoft ought to have more secure software. And while I applaud their efforts, let's not forget that they were found guilty of violating anti-trust regulations.

In the end, I have not made up my mind about whether and what amount of regulatory involvement I like when it comes to monopolists, however just like djnes cannot stand the mindless MS bashing I cannot stand the mindless EU bashing.
 
drizzt81 said:
The problem is that software companies may have a better product, but due to the leverage that microsoft has over its OS, they may soon not have a market anymore. I do understand that many of you -for a good reason- say that microsoft ought to have more secure software. And while I applaud their efforts, let's not forget that they were found guilty of violating anti-trust regulations.

In the end, I have not made up my mind about whether and what amount of regulatory involvement I like when it comes to monopolists, however just like djnes cannot stand the mindless MS bashing I cannot stand the mindless EU bashing.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the EU, nor am I disagreeing that Microsoft are completely innocent. Also I agree that some companies with better products won't see the light of day because users won't have the need to look elsewhere for said product.

However, it doesn't negate that currently 80-90% of users have no security software and because of that zombie pcs as djnes stated are many in numbers and increasing. Providing a built-in basic malware tool and firewall is the minimal protection and doesn't provide many of the functions some of the more advanced software out there does, but they shouldn't be punished for it - it's not as if it's installed without knowledge, users are asked whether they want to enable it, they have a choice.
 
Welcome to the free market economy. Oh, that's right. Europe still uses the feudal system, with the EU playing the role of the fucking lords. Work, create a good product, secure market share, too bad Jack. Create software to protect the non-computer savvy from virii and invasion in case they don't know enough to buy AV or firewall software? You despicable corporation. Give us money and cripple your product. We've got friends with crappy knockoffs made in the backrooms of third-world countries who deserve a fair shake. Plus a little influence to help from socialist cretins.

Adam Smith is rolling in his grave, and the invisible hand is being crushed by the EU's iron fist.
 
Aelfgeft said:
Welcome to the free market economy. Oh, that's right. Europe still uses the feudal system, with the EU playing the role of the fucking lords.
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Which is the reason the DOJ launched an investigation against MS? But I see this thread going to the soapbox in no time, so I shall leave it now...
 
Which features? I coud understand if they want to get rid of DRM supporting components, or driver signing. Those kinds of things create unnatural monopolies. I couldn't really see how they would justify removing features that could be disabled anyhow, which I assume Vista's firewall and stuff can be.
 
drizzt81 said:
Which is the reason the DOJ launched an investigation against MS? But I see this thread going to the soapbox in no time, so I shall leave it now...
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Aelfgeft said:
...plus a little influence to help from socialist cretins.
Click to expand...

Don't think I excuse Clinton's government either. As far as I'm concerned, we were a socialist country for 8 years. It has spread. From the nation who brought you Al Gore, the inventor of a series of tubes! (It's not a big truck!)
 
drizzt81 said:
Which is the reason the DOJ launched an investigation against MS? But I see this thread going to the soapbox in no time, so I shall leave it now...
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Yeah most !!!!!!s just dont understand what lack of competition actually does.... I cant wait for MS to become the next ma bell. Maybe then the OS will actually catch up with hardware... Maybe then the OS will actually do something to protect you. Maybe then....

We can all hope right?
 
i say let MS take out these features, and then when people go crying that "MS isnt secure! i got hacked! i got viruses" point them to the EU government and ask them where their "3rd party" products are that were supposed to be used to stop this.....

Throw it back in their faces and make the EU government responsibile, since they after all were the ones to force out the products that could of prevented it from happening.
 
MrGuvernment said:
i say let MS take out these features, and then when people go crying that "MS isnt secure! i got hacked! i got viruses" point them to the EU government and ask them where their "3rd party" products are that were supposed to be used to stop this.....

Throw it back in their faces and make the EU government responsibile, since they after all were the ones to force out the products that could of prevented it from happening.
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Or MS can simply do what everyone else has done from the beginning and make it easy to CHOOSE, whether there craptastic software gets installed in the first place.....

Nope that wont happen tho...
 
EU is just bleeding MS dry...seriously. The first couple of lawsuits were reasonable fine...but this is getting ridiculous.
 
duby229 said:
Or MS can simply do what everyone else has done from the beginning and make it easy to CHOOSE, whether there craptastic software gets installed in the first place.....

Nope that wont happen tho...
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It is easy to choose, but people are too dam lazy to look and want everything handed down to them,

They want to install their O/S and go, not install their O/S , then go looking online looking for a 3rd party app

So, between the time that joe blow plugs in his BRAND new dell, with no security features, and the time it takes him to find some protection, what happens then when he gets infected? Sure every on wil then cry MS ISNT SECURE BLAH BLAH BLAH.

You can turn off the firewall's and other features in vista, they are not FORCING you to use these items? you can easy install something else once you find it.... Do you expect MS to include with their CD soem cd's of other makers software?

I dont see Apple shipping a cd of MS office with their OS so people have choice?
I dont see Apple shipping other DVD maker software with their O/S

Apple does the same shit MS does, but because they arent as big they can get away with it.....

Sure, linux has it right offer 2 or 3 media players and skins and GUI's... Frankly i am all for the "it is microsofts software, they can do what they like with it, aslong as you have the ability to install your own software, and windows wont stop you, what is the problem.


as the saying goes, damed if you do, and damed if you dont!
 
I dont like people who bash Microsoft and I dont like people who bash the EU for the simple reason they are both doing what they are there to do. Microsoft - Make money by making a better product. EU - Regulating Markets to avoid monopolies (among many, many other duties).

That said here is my opinion, Microsoft should be able to put anything they want in their product, if people buy it then they are paying to be able to use all the features of that product. Microsoft are not giving this away for free afterall (and therefore distorting the market), you damn sure pay for the new features of a new Microsoft OS every few years and the new security happens to be one of those features.

The interesting thing about this is that the EU never investigates Apple for including software nor the companies who charge for Linux....True they arent monopolies but do distort the market in the same way Microsoft do.

I am sure Economists (my trade) and Lawyers will, in years to come, write papers and PHd thesis about every aspect of these proceedings and I have a feeling most will back Microsoft.
 
creating a thrid party firewall and expecting to government to step in and force someone else to stop making a product that does exactly the same thing, or being very similar, is like asking the government to shut down the grocery store down the road because they closer to the city than you are and therefore get more business.

if your product is good enough, people will buy it. that's all there is to it. the lack of competition has nothing to do with M$ being a monoploy and everything to do with the others not being able to secure a creative idea to propel them forward.

now if M$ starts buying out companies from underneath the shareholders and dismantling them, then maybe we can complain about monopolies.



....and as an aside, M$ was also acquitted of the monopoly charges in relation to the IE/Netscape thing. don't forget to mention that.
 
I don't think microsofts firewall is a big deal, it might be more capable than the one in xp, shrug. I don't think anyone thought omgz I have a built in firewall no need to buy a better one!!

I highly doubt the EU making cases against the software company has any true knowledge of what they are even talking about. Look at the way most of our legislators talk about it. There have been many posts on the front page, like this one: "the internet is just a bunch of pipes". I think the EU does whats best for the EU, and obviously not its people. Does windows XP N sell, fuck no. Will a version of Vista minus the security features "as an easy choice" sell well either? No, probably not...
 
It's one thing to be able to turn it off.... But it's quite another to be able to choose whether it gets installed or not....Which is how everyone else does things... Including apple.

I want to be able to choose whether or not IE gets installed at install time. I want to choose whether or not WMP gets installed at install time. I want to choose whether The firewall gets installed at install time. I want to be able choose whether the virus-malware scanner gets installed at install time.....

Turn it on by default. That is fine, as long as I have a list of applications that can be unchecked so as not to install. Go ahead and have them checked by default, but give me the option to uncheck them at install time.... It r4eally is that simple, and all of MS's legal trouble would be gone....

But now once again we have MS making a fool of themselfs by releasing .... what is it... 8 different releases? Come on folks... It doesnt take a genius to realize the scam here...
 
I can agree with the option to install it or not, that is a good point, but this is also only an RC1, who says there wont be these options in the final versions?

in RC1 you get NO options for anything - choose the harddrive, format, install, and you get everything.

we sitll have at least 2 RC's to go which should see the individual releases of each version, and no, they dont need 8 versions.

i remeber windows 2000

you had PRO / Server / Advance server / datacenter, that is it, why do you need more?
 
MrGuvernment said:
you had PRO / Server / Advance server / datacenter, that is it, why do you need more?
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Exactly my point!! Why do you need more?

But that IS the way MS is doing it with Vista... They got like 8 different releases coming... And these are just the DESKTOP releases!!! That is not counting ANY of the server releases!!

WHY GOD!!!!!! WWWHHHYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
i bet apple is overjoyed about this. they get to keep pushing the "we're ready out of the box" angle, even though there's nothing microsoft can do about it. if microsoft was to include what apple includes out of the box, they'd be knocked out with so many lawsuits. lets call a spade a spade - it is either a monopolistic tendency, or it isn't. none of this apple can bundle what they want, windows users have to search the web. it's just penalizing microsoft for their success. if third party developers can't stay in business by producing better software than microsoft, they have no right to exist in the first place.
 
dualblade said:
lets call a spade a spade - it is either a monopolistic tendency, or it isn't. none of this apple can bundle what they want, windows users have to search the web. it's just penalizing microsoft for their success.
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lol.. welcome to American politics.

if you do it well, you get taxed.

if you do it better than well, you get sued.
 
Care to list the 8 versions?

There are only four versions available for retail sale, and they're not too difficult to distinguish between.
 
it just feels like the technology version of affirmative action, as opposed to a real leveling of the playing field. setting the bar lower, or creating a more loose set of standards for apple just hurts everyone in the end, as it means that only the minority of users have access to a well integrated operating system.

i can definately support the government keeping an eye on pricing and distribution of microsoft products. i'd support watching out for the issue that intel's now facing (intel only houses get discounts): i don't want microsoft to be able to bribe compusa into not carrying apples, as i believe people benefit when both products are on the shelves for customers to choose from. i especially don't support any measures that inevitably create a less secure os.

as for the argument that microsoft is so big that small software houses have too much trouble competing, you can create a parallel with 3d gaming. producing a top level title has become a long and expensive operation, where 2 guys in a basement are at a severe disadvantage. you don't see the government restricting the complexity of the 3d graphics in a game so the little guys can compete - it would be effectively halting technology's progress
 
Catweazle said:
Care to list the 8 versions?

There are only four versions available for retail sale, and they're not too difficult to distinguish between.
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I counted something like over 60 different boxed versions. There are 8 main versions, x4 for licensing options for OEM, Retail, EDU, VLA. Then x2 for 32/64 bit versions. There are a few extra's as well as exceptions.

edit:

MS should just pull out of the EU market. Don't sell Vista in the EU, see how long that lasts before they come back and say "you know what we really do what your products". MS wouldn't lose a single sell.
 
Phoenix86 said:
I counted something like over 60 different boxed versions. There are 8 main versions, x4 for licensing options for OEM, Retail, EDU, VLA. Then x2 for 32/64 bit versions. There are a few extra's as well as exceptions.

edit:

MS should just pull out of the EU market. Don't sell Vista in the EU, see how long that lasts before they come back and say "you know what we really do what your products". MS wouldn't lose a single sell.
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you are underestimating the resolve of a fairly capitalistic society.

remember, necessity is the mother of all invention.
 
Phoenix86 said:
I counted something like over 60 different boxed versions. There are 8 main versions, x4 for licensing options for OEM, Retail, EDU, VLA. Then x2 for 32/64 bit versions. There are a few extra's as well as exceptions.

edit:

MS should just pull out of the EU market. Don't sell Vista in the EU, see how long that lasts before they come back and say "you know what we really do what your products". MS wouldn't lose a single sell.
Click to expand...

last i had heard, 32 and 64bit versions will be included in the sme box, if not on the same disc(depending on how big the final version is).
 
I see a bunch of post here suggesting that Windows Vista will be crippled by the removal of the features in question. The article doesn't mention what features, so it's too early to get rialled up about it. In fact the quote suggesting that it was security features that were on the chopping block came from a Microsoft employee. In Microsoft's viewpoint, this could mean that DRM is what is actually in question, becasue they tend to list it as a security feature. Removing DRM is harmless to system security, and DRM is a lot more likly to be offensive to commerce than a few OK buttons during system use.
 
nameless_centurian said:
you are underestimating the resolve of a fairly capitalistic society.

remember, necessity is the mother of all invention.
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It would be an interesting thought, though.

No more updates for older versions, so they get nailed with more viruses and malware and crap, but you can't buy the new software because the government has outlawed it. I wonder if a PC-powered revolution would be possible in Europe.

Europe - home of infested PCs since 2006?
 
MS is trying to enhance security..
The Eu wants to make sure other players can sell their security software..
The only problem with the EU plan is that prolly 80% to 90% of typical pc users simply WILL NOT buy additional security related software.. If it did not come with the computer, the majority will not buy it.. Plain and simple... When the bundled antivirus/security suite subscription runs out on a pc, it just runs out.. They are not going to resubscribe or buy something to replace it... I wish I was just kidding about this....

18 months from now the EU will sue MS, because Vista is not secure enough for use by the European masses...
 
Aelfgeft said:
Don't think I excuse Clinton's government either. As far as I'm concerned, we were a socialist country for 8 years. It has spread. From the nation who brought you Al Gore, the inventor of a series of tubes! (It's not a big truck!)
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whats funny about al gore saying he invented the internet isthe fact that he never said it. He said that he was behind bringing the internet public, and the media perverted that into the "now famous" quote
 
jkr266 said:
last i had heard, 32 and 64bit versions will be included in the sme box, if not on the same disc(depending on how big the final version is).
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Would you happen to have a link for this? That would be pretty cool if they did that...
 
Phoenix86 said:
Would you happen to have a link for this? That would be pretty cool if they did that...
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It's been mentioned on many sites.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2000446,00.asp
Microsoft is striving to ensure that the 64-bit version has driver support equal to the 32-bit version, and will be packaging both variants in the same box.
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http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_editions_final.asp
Almost all Windows Vista editions will be offered in both x86 (32-bit) and x64 (64-bit) versions, and these versions will ship in the same box.
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(Vista Starter edition doesn't come in a 64-bit flavor. Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, Enterprise and Ultimate do.)
 
I just think EU has a vendetta vs MS to be honest. XP doesnt prevent you from using 3rd party apps and neither does Vista.

MS Firewall is not required.
MS media player is not required.
MS browser is not required.
MS CD/DVD software is not required.
MS Disk Defragmenter is not required.
MS Defender is not required.
Etc..

The only thing EU does by forcing MS to create "basic" versions of their OS for EU sales is hurt the buyers of those MS products. (the EU version MS made of XP is a VERY poor seller for that very reason)

Let the buyers and OEMs decide what to include and what not to include. So long as MS does not try and force their software by contract leverage or by code prevention there is no point in restricting what they can include.
 
Kaos said:
whats funny about al gore saying he invented the internet isthe fact that he never said it. He said that he was behind bringing the internet public, and the media perverted that into the "now famous" quote
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I believe the famous quote was "I helped create the internet"


EDIT: And he was right - he is the only elected official to have helped promote growth of the internet.

EDIT 2: No biases here, if anything - I'm a Republican - I would try and make Gore look like an idiot
 
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