Ethereum and Bitcoin Mining Is Consuming as Much Electricity as a Small Country

[Simplyfun]

So you posted for absolutely no reason then? You must have an alternative notion about what a fact is. An alternative fact about facts! Until you provide facts and a valid reasoning that will remain an opinion at best.

No. No ban. All you said was ban. all i said was no ban.

You must have an alternative idea on what you said. Let's review.

If we want to do something about being "green", then it is only logical to ban this blatant and pointless wasting of energy.

Looking for facts.... scanning, scanning... yeah no facts. There's an opinion, but I posted one of those as well. I said no ban.

So you posted for absolutely no reason then?

Is that what you did?

 

[Master_shake_]

There are other costs beyond monetary costs. As I explained in my later post.
By the same reasoning it should be OK to release cfc into the atmosphere if you pay for it?
Or is it OK to destroy all rainforests if you pay for the wood?
And even those produce some value, but bitmining does nothing but keeps the cryptocurrency economy flowing.

It's much like trading but with a guaranteed return. And if noone looses on it, that is a problem. The trade market works because some loose some win on it. So in the end it evens out. But since noone looses in mining, that means they're syphoning value from elsewhere. Effectively de-valuing the work and money of others. But that's an entirely different problem I have with mining.

releasing cfcs in to the air is illegal. so false equivalency noted.

and rain forests are protected. so again false equivalency noted.

do you get angry when you see people driving around with no objective releasing C02 in to the air?

 

[face2palm]

releasing cfcs in to the air is illegal. so false equivalency noted.

and rain forests are protected. so again false equivalency noted.

do you get angry when you see people driving around with no objective releasing C02 in to the air?

He probably thinks that Teslas are great for the environment too. (as long as you ignore those pesky lithium mining operations)

 

[HockeyJon]

So is that your first reaction to everything you don't understand? Ban it?

If it was so pointless, how the hell did I get two free 1080Ti's from mining profits in this last little boom time? Using your logic we should just ban pretty much everything that wastes energy huh? Goodbye TV, movies, motorsports, youtube, video games, on and on.

every watt I've used for mining comes from 100% renewable sources, and my car gets an average of 150mpg. doing the math it sounds like the only thing that needs to be banned is you good sir.

Your ability to buy two Geforce 1080Ti's by selling cryptocoins doesn't define whether or not they have a "point". You sold a commodity product that there's a market for right now thanks to speculators. Whether or not they actually have a point is tied to whether or not they can function as currencies in the real world. The jury for that is still out, since we don't know which, if any, cryptocurrency will ultimately gain favour and operate as a solution for world commerce.

 

[HockeyJon]

Can we all just agree that Dogecoin is destined to replace the US dollar as the world reserve currency?

Such coin. Much money. Wow!

 

[collegeboy69us]

Your ability to buy two Geforce 1080Ti's by selling cryptocoins doesn't define whether or not they have a "point". You sold a commodity product that there's a market for right now thanks to speculators. Whether or not they actually have a point is tied to whether or not they can function as currencies in the real world. The jury for that is still out, since we don't know which, if any, cryptocurrency will ultimately gain favour and operate as a solution for world commerce.

Does buying and selling gold have a point outside of speculation or locking in dollars to a physical commodity? It's withstood the test of time as a value holder (generally) but at the same time none of us walk around paying for gasoline or groceries with micro ounces of gold. In the crypto world it's boom or bust and will be that way for quite a while.

My issue was with you taking a close minded view and just saying "ban it". Telling people how they should spend their time, money, or energy is the fastest way to look like an idiot. You might not agree with the high energy use that miners incur, but at the end of the day it's my money/time, I saw an opportunity and I took it, now I have multiple high end GPU's that have already ROI'd and continue to put money in my pocket. There's always risk in the crypto market and many who rush in blind thinking they will soon be millionaires will figure it out eventually,

Imagine if you had some kind of craft beer hobby that made you profit at the end of the day and was fun for you to do, I come along and scoff and say "well I don't agree with any of this, it's pointless and we should ban you from doing something you enjoy because I don't know anything about it". Or another example: I don't know crap about day trading, I'd probably lose my hat if I gave it a spin, but I don't call for the banning of it.

 

[Burticus]

So crypto mining is the real cause of global warming? LOL

 

[tetris42]

Please.

Saving yourself money is completely irrelevant to this discussion. In fact, it actually works against your point.

It's hard to avoid pretentious hypocrisy isn't it? Your 1080s will eventually go to landfill and were made with materials and processes that pollute, but in second/third world places that are sufficiently far away for you not to notice. Your car (why you even brought it up in this thread shows how oddly proud you are of being a hypocrite) will also add to the trash heap at some point and regardless of the brand or type of car you have, the world would be better off if you didn't buy or use it. Your 'green' materials - solar panels, etc - were made using polluting resources (again in a sufficiently distant enough place) and will also be on some rubbish pile at some point. So, your 1080s weren't at all free, but more of a 'pay later' deal. Yes, let's talk about recycling, the word that helps millions consume without remorse. The amount of recycling is an absolute joke when compared with the amount of things produced. No, until it is somehow made a big-money industry (fueling the same self-serving attitude as you, but on a larger scale), it will remain a single digit percent of production.

Glad to see that you sleep well in your fantasy and sure, maybe you have decreased your impact to a degree but don't put on that white hat so quickly. So long as you live in a developed country and have things, take craps, eat food, drive around, own electronics, etc., you're still a problem.

Anyone who argues for or justifies the power used by mining is well and truly deluded.

I think the idea is we're managing the world so, so badly that using electricity for computing is pretty damn low as far as the list of sins go. If they were all to stop tomorrow, there would be a temporary reduction, and then the damage would continue to march onward. It's systemic, you don't kill weeds by lopping off the top, you have to pull them out by the roots. I'll take a bitcoin miner any day over someone paying lobbyists to deregulate environmental protection measures.

 

[Parja]

Cost / Hour is 0.2 x $0.1362 = $0.02724
Cost / Day is $0.02724 x 24 = $0.65376
$0.65376 x 7 = $4.57632
4.57632 x 4 = $18.30528 a month minus few days as i calculated 28 days a month which a month really is 28-31 days.

You're making this harder than it needs to be to come up with bad numbers.

0.2 kW * $0.1362 / kWh * 24 hours/day * 365 days/year / 12 months/year = $19.89/month

 

[Verge]

Well in that case, tax the hell out of crypo-money and take care of this country's healthcare.

You can't call it currency. Anyone who thinks this stuff is "money" is a blooming idiot. It's a slot machine at this point.


When it takes an atom bomb to move it 5%... THEN it will be "money."

 

[Retronym]

solar panels are one of the most toxic wastes our current tech produces. a watt wasted on mining is a wasted watt, no matter how it was produced on the first place.

What other products and services are illegitimate? Is there a handout I can read?

 

[umeng2002]

Just steal electricity...

 

[drescherjm]

Is there a handout I can read?

Being that I work at a university I would expect such an item exists..

 

[tetris42]

There are other costs beyond monetary costs. As I explained in my later post.
By the same reasoning it should be OK to release cfc into the atmosphere if you pay for it?
Or is it OK to destroy all rainforests if you pay for the wood?
And even those produce some value, but bitmining does nothing but keeps the cryptocurrency economy flowing.

It's much like trading but with a guaranteed return. And if noone looses on it, that is a problem. The trade market works because some loose some win on it. So in the end it evens out. But since noone looses in mining, that means they're syphoning value from elsewhere. Effectively de-valuing the work and money of others. But that's an entirely different problem I have with mining.

The problem is the market forces themselves. Environmental damage is usually chalked up as externalities and isn't even factored into the price. And like you said, there often aren't limits on the damage even if we DO pay for it.

Say we ban cryptocurrency mining and all the power it's using drops. Well then the price of electricity might get lower, which would spur MORE use elsewhere. This has happened before in many markets. When we make cars more efficient, we put MORE of them on the road since it's cheaper to drive them, which causes total use to go UP. You have to address how we manage resources itself. Going after bitcoin wouldn't do much in the long run, you have to look at the systemic incentives themselves.

 

[/dev/null]

Well in that case, tax the hell out of crypo-money and take care of this country's healthcare.

It's already taxed as income & or capital gains afaik...

 

[Hitti2]

You're making this harder than it needs to be to come up with bad numbers.

0.2 kW * $0.1362 / kWh * 24 hours/day * 365 days/year / 12 months/year = $19.89/month

Addin + 97 for windows ac unti to cool down the pc + ac unit.

There are 4 o 8 days out of the month im gone.


Factoring 815W ac window unit.

meh.

 

[cdabc123]

Lets get a number for the total energy used by people gaming all over the world. Is that energy wasted? Or is the joy people got out of it worth it?

The money I get from mining certainly makes me happier then gaming and I personally would consider it more helpful.

 

[Prisoner849]

I think the idea is we're managing the world so, so badly that using electricity for computing is pretty damn low as far as the list of sins go. If they were all to stop tomorrow, there would be a temporary reduction, and then the damage would continue to march onward. It's systemic, you don't kill weeds by lopping off the top, you have to pull them out by the roots. I'll take a bitcoin miner any day over someone paying lobbyists to deregulate environmental protection measures.

By your rationale the prisons would be empty until we solve the underlying issues of how they all got there. No thanks. One tree at a time or torch the forest, it's all doing good and moving in the right direction.

We aren't managing the world badly; we're treating the earth exactly how we want to treat it. One guy buys solar panels and feels like he's curing cancer, another buys a V8 Caddy and feels nothing. We're hopeless, deluded, self-serving hypocrites and we'll get exactly what's coming to us....in a race to the bottom.

 

[HockeyJon]

Does buying and selling gold have a point outside of speculation or locking in dollars to a physical commodity? It's withstood the test of time as a value holder (generally) but at the same time none of us walk around paying for gasoline or groceries with micro ounces of gold. In the crypto world it's boom or bust and will be that way for quite a while.

My issue was with you taking a close minded view and just saying "ban it". Telling people how they should spend their time, money, or energy is the fastest way to look like an idiot. You might not agree with the high energy use that miners incur, but at the end of the day it's my money/time, I saw an opportunity and I took it, now I have multiple high end GPU's that have already ROI'd and continue to put money in my pocket. There's always risk in the crypto market and many who rush in blind thinking they will soon be millionaires will figure it out eventually,

Imagine if you had some kind of craft beer hobby that made you profit at the end of the day and was fun for you to do, I come along and scoff and say "well I don't agree with any of this, it's pointless and we should ban you from doing something you enjoy because I don't know anything about it". Or another example: I don't know crap about day trading, I'd probably lose my hat if I gave it a spin, but I don't call for the banning of it.

Two things:

1) I agree, which is why I don't invest in gold. There is no accurate way to value gold on the open market. It has no PE ratio, it has no revenue or cash flow to speak of. I don't understand why anyone would pay more than anyone else for some shiny metal.

2) I never said anything about banning cryptocurrencies. Someone else did who wasn't me. I did say that you're essentially getting lucky making money mining a commodity that has no real reason to exist (underscored by the fact that Ethereum JUST crashed today, along with a lot of other coins for whatever reason). That's not to say you can't make money on this, but your ability to make money selling essentially nothing doesn't legitimize it as a currency, or anything else.

 

[Shintai]

https://ethereumprice.org/ at least it seems to continue to drop in value.

 

[tetris42]

By your rationale the prisons would be empty until we solve the underlying issues of how they all got there. No thanks.

Yeah, because robbing a liquor store and shooting the clerk is basically the same thing asbitcoin mining, therefore the reasoning should be the same also.

Bitcoin is about as slippery slope as you get. Fine, let's ban bitcoin mining. Hey, maybe we should CGI rendering while we're at it, since that's very power intensive also. And hey, intensive 3D gaming has gotta go too, that uses too much power. While we're at it, let's shutdown that SETI stuff, since god knows how much power that is using. The point is trying to police computer programs is an exercise in futility. You have to attack the problem from a different direction. Either we develop additional power generation, or else we ration out better what we have, it's about that simple. Cracking down on whether it's acceptable to run a computer or a toaster wouldn't accomplish anything.

One tree at a time or torch the forest, it's all doing good and moving in the right direction.

We aren't managing the world badly; we're treating the earth exactly how we want to treat it. One guy buys solar panels and feels like he's curing cancer, another buys a V8 Caddy and feels nothing. We're hopeless, deluded, self-serving hypocrites and we'll get exactly what's coming to us....in a race to the bottom.

I really get sick of the people in this forum who essentially ascribe to this death cult mentality. No, most people do NOT want to destroy the planet, but our society and economic system has been incentivized to accomplish that. You say we're hopeless, but considering all humanity's accomplished, I'd say only a SMALL PORTION of humanity is hopeless, but if they're the ones running the show, a whole lot of it follows. Most of humanity is very malleable and goes with the flow. That doesn't make us hopeless unless we're literally incapable of changing the direction we're taking ourselves in.

Another way to look at it, say you have 100 people. 5 people are going to advance humanity and help deal with any obstacle we face. 5 people are hopeless and will get us all killed in the long, they're the ones running the system. 90 people want things to be good, but aren't going to put much effort into it and are just going to take the path of least resistance with everything. Now contrast that with 100 out of 100 people wanting to destroy everything and get us killed. Some people don't recognize the difference between the two and think they're the same thing. One is hopeless, one is not.

 

[Prisoner849]

Yeah, because robbing a liquor store and shooting the clerk is basically the same thing asbitcoin mining, therefore the reasoning should be the same also.

Bitcoin is about as slippery slope as you get. Fine, let's ban bitcoin mining. Hey, maybe we should CGI rendering while we're at it, since that's very power intensive also. And hey, intensive 3D gaming has gotta go too, that uses too much power. While we're at it, let's shutdown that SETI stuff, since god knows how much power that is using. The point is trying to police computer programs is an exercise in futility. You have to attack the problem from a different direction. Either we develop additional power generation, or else we ration out better what we have, it's about that simple. Cracking down on whether it's acceptable to run a computer or a toaster wouldn't accomplish anything.

But you might ask why did he rob it? Social inequity, broken home...oh, let's get to the root of his problem before we condemn the crime. No mate, I'm not arguing for empty jails...you're the one who made the claim that there are levels of 'bad' and that ills cannot be rectified by cutting off the head, and please try to argue that prisons aren't full of perfect examples of exactly this. I think what you're arguing here is victimless crime, of which a guy sucking power by mining is not an example. We all suffer for that. Ban it? Show me where I said this. SETI is for the betterment of all, at least that's what the sales pitch says, whereas bitcoin is for personal gain and does no good whatsoever for the world. Creates money to propel the economy, etc...? Sure, so again we can buy all of our shit and here we go into a circular pattern. Yes, trying to police it is an asinine proposition and it is very clear that we can't count on the individual's conscience for anything because people don't give 2 shits. So, we're screwed because people suck.

I really get sick of the people in this forum who essentially ascribe to this death cult mentality. No, most people do NOT want to destroy the planet, but our society and economic system has been incentivized to accomplish that. You say we're hopeless, but considering all humanity's accomplished, I'd say only a SMALL PORTION of humanity is hopeless, but if they're the ones running the show, a whole lot of it follows. Most of humanity is very malleable and goes with the flow. That doesn't make us hopeless unless we're literally incapable of changing the direction we're taking ourselves in.

Another way to look at it, say you have 100 people. 5 people are going to advance humanity and help deal with any obstacle we face. 5 people are hopeless and will get us all killed in the long, they're the ones running the system. 90 people want things to be good, but aren't going to put much effort into it and are just going to take the path of least resistance with everything. Now contrast that with 100 out of 100 people wanting to destroy everything and get us killed. Some people don't recognize the difference between the two and think they're the same thing. One is hopeless, one is not.

I'm no death cult mentality and don't bother with your silly hyperbole here. All we have accomplished in the last 200 years has led us to this very place. Yes, we've done a lot, but we have only just begun to pay for it and it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Yes, we go with the flow, even when it ends in a waterfall. Precisely my argument; we are sheep and when given a choice, always act in our own best interests; short-sighted and only in it for the immediate gain and will follow anyone who promises to fuel this greed.

5 people what to advance the cause and overcome any obstacle...and will do so by delaying the consequences of their actions or lessening the immediate impact. Elon Musk fits nicely into this category. 5 people are running the system and control everything, thus including the 5 aforementioned people (take your pick; most people with significant money and power can go here). 90 people will just follow the first 5 but none of this matters because in your analogy, it's the second 5 that run the show and they will prevail; by your own words, they are indeed running the show. Thanks for making my point. And my money is on the second group of 100 with one caveat; they don't want explicitly to get us all killed, but this is the inevitable result. We are frogs in heating water, however slowly that may be occurring is beside the point. Frogs who ironically control the heat.

Arguing with people so in love with their world as it is, with themselves and all of the shit values and ideologies they insulate their beliefs with is ridiculous. They are just fucking brainwashed. Call my type a negative nancy but it's just as easy to call them naive fools in denial. Do I want it all to end? Of course not; I am a selfish fool and want my little delusion to continue until I die. What I am not however is a hypocrite. I know what I'm doing, what I am participating in and make no claims against or to justify being what I am.

There are clear solutions to all of our problems, but we simply aren't willing to do what it takes to enact them. We will not give up all it will take to make tomorrow better than today. We are doomed and there is simply no arguing around it. All of the evidence speaks to this reality. Why are we trying so hard to get off this rock (and greatly hastening the need to do so in the process)? So we can go somewhere else and drain the planet, not by starting all over again with different values, morals and habits. If that's our goal then we don't need to go anywhere. If we really, truly want to get our shit together, we can; we have everything we need to save this planet, feed everyone on it, eliminate much needless suffering, on and on but we won't. So enjoy the ride but don't think for one second that it won't end or that it doesn't have to end and stop making arguments to justify your ignorance. Clawing so hard to get out the hole you're in only widens it.

 

[next-Jin]

Please.

Anyone who argues for or justifies the power used by mining is well and truly deluded.

Blockchain technology has the ability to drastically change the world, even more so for third world countries.

What you're suggesting is the power used in the early days of data centers, servers, and the total amount of energy used by the technology sector building the internet as we know it was pointless.

That was for the internet, which gave everyone access to knowledge. Now imagine something as big or bigger for contracts/currency.

Blockchain could literally abolish governments or fiat currency as we know it. It could drastically lower healthcare costs, lower service costs, eliminate fraud waste and abuse, etc.

That's worth investing in.

 

[Prisoner849]

Blockchain technology has the ability to drastically change the world, even more so for third world countries.

What you're suggesting is the power used in the early days of data centers, servers, and the total amount of energy used by the technology sector building the internet as we know it was pointless.

That was for the internet, which gave everyone access to knowledge. Now imagine something as big or bigger for contracts/currency.

Blockchain could literally abolish governments or fiat currency as we know it. It could drastically lower healthcare costs, lower service costs, eliminate fraud waste and abuse, etc.

That's worth investing in.

No, I'm not suggesting that, you're claiming I am to make your point. Yeah, yeah...It'll save the third world. Think of the children! Please. We already have the means to lower healthcare costs, service costs and (lol!) eliminate fraud, waste and abuse (dream on) but we don't. There's no winning an argument that claims humans are selfish, short-sighted, greedy and generally horrible to one another. If you want to eliminate fraud, waste and abuse (wasn't that some cheesy government jingle at some point?) you'll be eliminating the vast majority of people on earth. Altruism decreases in proportion to acquired money and power. Look at Bill and Warren...they had to suck billions before they started sharing.

Anyhow, was your argument supposed to justify the power used by schmucks mining in their suburban basement to buy - sorry, "get" - 1080s? Right...you sound like one of them.

 

[c3k]

We need a committee, with world-wide powers, to determine if any electrical use is justified. Without the proper power justification permit, your devices should be confiscated and the individual jailed or sent to a certified green-works rehab camp. Sure, the taxes/fees for a power permit would be high, but obviously justified by the end result. We cannot allow indiscriminate use of electricity. Because the children. Or the pandas.

Oh: I, of course, will be the power-permit committee chairman. As such, I will obviously have waivers and a very high salary (funded by said permits).

Because the world.

 

[next-Jin]

No, I'm not suggesting that, you're claiming I am to make your point. Yeah, yeah...It'll save the third world. Think of the children! Please. We already have the means to lower healthcare costs, service costs and (lol!) eliminate fraud, waste and abuse (dream on) but we don't. There's no winning an argument that claims humans are selfish, short-sighted, greedy and generally horrible to one another. If you want to eliminate fraud, waste and abuse (wasn't that some cheesy government jingle at some point?) you'll be eliminating the vast majority of people on earth. Altruism decreases in proportion to acquired money and power. Look at Bill and Warren...they had to suck billions before they started sharing.

Anyhow, was your argument supposed to justify the power used by schmucks mining in their suburban basement to buy - sorry, "get" - 1080s? Right...you sound like one of them.

You have absolutely no idea what Ethereum and other technology like it will (could) do. That much is absolutely clear.

The technology gets around quite literally all of your points by being decentralized and using smart contracts. Greed, human error, human delays, time differences, etc. are all solved with this tech.

At first I would have said the same thing, but people much smarter than you or I have broken this down over the past 18 months.

Never mind the speculative nature of the market as it stands now. It's still trying to find its way. The point is that using blockchain a person could goto any doctor anywhere in the world and have access to their entire medical history since birth, completely secure. Their insurance could pay without any paperwork being needed within seconds.

No one would have to tell you if you gave them 20,000 dollars to invest in this product that it was a scam because you could immediately check that persons credentials. Things like Enron or Solyndra would never happen because it would be impossible for a company to lie about its financials or modify their books.

The government couldn't inflate the money supply or keep where our taxpayer dollars go a secret.

Voting in elections would be 100% accurate with no more arguments over voter fraud.

The judicial system wouldn't be backed up by months if not years because contracts would be set in stone, there wouldn't be a need to have a judge rule on them because they would be transparent, timelines, parties, etc it would all be verifiable without any margin for interpretation.

AI based on Blockchain could immediately warn of bubbles in the stock market, give true values based on financials telling you if something is overvalued or undervalued.

You can send money to anyone in the world without a third party. No more PayPal, Western Union, Banks, etc. with fees or long wait times.

The possibilities are limitless. It's the internet 2.0 as far as human advancement is concerned.

You're only looking at early speculators and folks pushing the technology for personal gain without looking at what a lot of us do this for.

I'm long on my positions from mining and investing because I remember those no name companies from the mid 1990s that are now worth billions that changed the world.

EDIT: and yes, greed will always exist. Greed is a natural human trait. It's not inherently bad either, the problem is when greed makes people do shady things or break laws. This technology almost wholeheartedly stops that. Or at the very least it makes it so that anyone who wants to know the real facts about the financials of someone or a company readily available.

Everyone is greedy, every liberal, conservative, libertarian, etc everyone on this planet is greedy. We all take the most deductions possible on our tax returns, we all buy electronics on sale, we always look for deals. It's in our nature.

And on healthcare you're thinking of electronic records I'm assuming in this context. E-records can be deleted or tampered. They don't follow you anywhere. Insurance companies likely wouldn't have access. Costs are far more expensive.

EDIT2: And to clarify my position, none of what I said would be possible if we don't go through these growing pains and trial and error periods. Just like in the mid 1990s.

 

[Dullard]

Wait until Vega hits, then it'll be as much electricity as a not so small country