ESD: Truths, myths, and flat out lies

one note on the compressed air thing. Compressed air is bad to use because it can have a lot of moisture in it and also because it can cary or create charges. But canned air is better to use because it does not hold mosture nor does it carry or create charges.

Would you say that is a true statement?
 
a little humidity is actually a good thing
and canned air can, when improperly employed, cool quite alot do to the joule thompson effect which inturn could cause condensation where you wouldnt want it depending on the relative humidity in the air

alternatively you can remove the residual moisture from compressed air, which is quite common, in fact I have an ingersol rand dryer (think of a chip chiller for air) there are also dessicating filters, but again improperly applied you get joule thompson cooling

there are also static control products for compressed air, if your going to be doing this every day in a benchtop workstation, compressed air will after the initial investment be much cheaper

in general however your statement is a good rule of thumb
just use short bursts in either case
 
SarverSystems said:
Oh, and to make ESD even more clear, let me post some numbers.

Walking across carpet generates 35,000 volts at 10-25% humidity, down to 1,500 volts at 65-90% humidity.

Walking across vinyl tile generates 12,00 volts at 10-25% humidity, down 250 volts at 65-90% humidity.

Simply shifting around in yoru ccushioned chair generates 18,000 volts at 10-25% humidity down to 1,500 volts at 65-90% humidity.
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The MATRIX has you :p
 
I've been building computers for 10 years and have never damaged a system with ESD, and I never used an anti-static wrist strap.
 
nigerian_businessman said:
I've been building computers for 10 years and have never damaged a system with ESD, and I never used an anti-static wrist strap.
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What's your point?
 
nigerian_businessman said:
I've been building computers for 10 years and have never damaged a system with ESD, and I never used an anti-static wrist strap.
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I'd bet money he HAS damaged equipment, just not enough to cause it to completely fail. His OC probably isn't as high as he'd like, and his RAM probably doesn't run at fully capacity and speed. His hard drives probably run slower than expected with occassional crashing.
 
I haven't overclocked my processor. It runs hot enough stock. The video card on the other hand overclocks fine, 75mhz on the core and 150mhz extra on the ram. Hard drives haven't failed and I've swapped them between 3 computers already. I think ESD is a myth.
 
You are either a retard, or have no clue what "science" is.

Please refrain from posting your nonsense on an otherwise constructive thread.

Your ignorance for proven facts is not welcome here.

If you want to be a moron and ruin your own components, more power to you. On the other hand, if you want to come in here and tell people "ESD is a myth" even though it has been proven millions of times, then you have another thing coming.

Maybe I should post in your threads and state false comments? Wouldn't be a wise thing to do. SO I suggest you do the same.

You can "think" all you want, but I can tell you this: You are waaaaaaaay wrong on this one. Ever see an electronics factory worker NOT wearing a wrist band? Ever see a SMD not grounded? Ever see a motherboard NOT shipped in an ESD bag?

Please, seriously, do not post your bullshit in our informative threads.
 
SarverSystems said:
You are either a retard, or have no clue what "science" is.

Please refrain from posting your nonsense on an otherwise constructive thread.

Your ignorance for proven facts is not welcome here.

If you want to be a moron and ruin your own components, more power to you. On the other hand, if you want to come in here and tell people "ESD is a myth" even though it has been proven millions of times, then you have another thing coming.

Maybe I should post in your threads and state false comments? Wouldn't be a wise thing to do. SO I suggest you do the same.

You can "think" all you want, but I can tell you this: You are waaaaaaaay wrong on this one. Ever see an electronics factory worker NOT wearing a wrist band? Ever see a SMD not grounded? Ever see a motherboard NOT shipped in an ESD bag?

Please, seriously, do not post your bullshit in our informative threads.
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Please, seriously, lose the personal attacks and the attitude. I'm not giving it to you and I don't deserve to be on the recieving end of it. You can also quit your mini-modding, telling me what I can and cannot do in this thread. You're not a mod, you have no authority over me. If I want to express my opinion here in a constructive manner, I'm well within the rules and I'm going to go right ahead and do that. You on the other hand immediately resort to personal attacks, which by the way ARE against the rules, and then you think you can tell me to get out of the thread because you don't like my opinion? Piss off already.

I didn't tell anyone that ESD is, for a fact, nothing more than a myth. All I'm saying is that I've seen no concrete evidence of ESD damage, ever, only talk about how it 'could' happen. I've worked in several repair shops, 1 of which was so busy that we had a backlog of 6 weeks. Not once did I ever encounter anything that could be directly attributed to ESD damage. I've never seen any studies or concrete evedence of a working part being damaged by ESD. I've never seen anything like 'heres a working part, now i'm going to walk across the carpet, not ground myself, install it, and omg now it doesn't work". I've been working with computers since I could see over the desk, and building my own since the 286 days. I've torn down, rebuilt, and put together from scratch more computers than I can even count, not only as a hobby but as a profession from time to time, and in my extensive experience that spans over a decade, I've never, once, ever encountered it. So in my opinion it's a myth.

Enjoy your tin foil hat
 
My tinfoil hat will keep me grounded. :p

I totallyunderstand you not seeing any concrete evidence. However, I work at a place that produces life-saving devices for miners, hospitals, and fire departments. We make everything from single gas monitors to thermal imaging cameras at our facility. ESD is drilled into our skulls. We check our wrist straps evry single day before our shift. I hHAVE seen concrete evidence that ESD exists and has destroyed components.

In fact, we had a demonstration the one day. She brough in some kind of meter (couldn't see it from where I was sitting. She put the meter NEAR a roll of scotch tape. The meter moved a little indicating there was statis electricity present in the roll of tape, even sitting idle like it was. THen she ripped about 6" off the roll. Then she put the meter NEAR the roll again. The meter maxxed out. THen she touched the roll of tape, and put the meter near her arm. She maxxed out the meter with her own arm. She was now carrying a charge. Imagine what that charge would do to a circuit board?

Newer electronics have ESD safeguards built-in. So ESD isn't AS MUCH of a concern as it used to be, but it is still very important to take into consideration.

I am sorry for personally attacking you the way I did, but it really upset me that you don;t believe ESD exists, or can cause damage to electronics.
 
nigerian_businessman said:
I've never seen any studies or concrete evedence of a working part being damaged by ESD.
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Then you're not looking hard enough.

The ESDA (their site is linked in this thread) has plenty of documentation on the effects of ESD. Any data sheet for any MOS semiconductor will have descriptions of it; any data book will have a section or a chapter on it. Of note at the ESDA site is this study: http://www.esda.org/session4a_2005.html

Here's another article (with pictures!): http://www.siliconfareast.com/eosesd_failures.htm .

The ESD Journal did a study analysing the cost-benefit of ESD protection: http://www.esdjournal.com/eosesd/static/scp.htm

Semiconductor Manufacturing magazine regularly runs articles about ESD damage on the production line. EDN has run some good articles about designing products to become more ESD-resistant, like this one.

Feel free to believe what you want or not, but your logic is laughable: just because you haven't experienced something personally doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There's plenty of evidence and information about ESD, and anyone who bothers to do a little reading knows it is real.

To what degree do you not believe in damage caused by ESD, by the way? Do you just believe that static doesn't affect retail computer components? Or that a home might not catch fire if it were hit by lightning?

But if a demonstration is what it'll take to convince you: go to Radio Shack and buy some CMOS parts. Build a binary counter with a CMOS 555 (if they still make 'em; a 4049 and a couple capacitors if not) and a 4017. Get it working; have it flash some LEDs. Then, take the chips out and zap them on purpose with static electricity. When you replace them in your circuit, does it still work?

Like Sarver mentioned, making parts more ESD-resistant is the holy grail of the semiconductor industry. (Or, making an ESD-proof fabrication technology that is as low power and inexpensive to fabricate as the current MOS based stuff.) But we're ceratinly not there yet.
 
nigerian_businessman said:
I've been building computers for 10 years and have never damaged a system with ESD, and I never used an anti-static wrist strap.
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Have you ever built a computer that didn't work? Or blue-screened a lot? Then said something like "fucking cheap ECS motherboard piece of shit", replaced the motherboard and it came to life? If you've been at computers for 10 years, chances are you have.
 
Good read. I used to think that just touching the case was good enough for my parts. I bet not knowing enough in depth about ESD is why my homebuilt can get unstable at times :eek:
 
I think ESD is a myth.
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I am more inclined to agree with nigerian_businessman. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a myth but at the very least I would say ESD has been overblown. (pardon the pun)

if you want to come in here and tell people "ESD is a myth" even though it has been proven millions of times, then you have another thing coming.
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This is what I think is lacking in the ESD argument. Proof. Is there actually proof? This is not proof of ESD:

Walking across carpet generates 35,000 volts at 10-25% humidity, down to 1,500 volts at 65-90% humidity.
Click to expand...

This is not proof either:

Ever see an electronics factory worker NOT wearing a wrist band? Ever see a SMD not grounded? Ever see a motherboard NOT shipped in an ESD bag?
Click to expand...

Lots of companies buying ESD equipment is not proof. Information from companies that make money selling ESD equipment and magazines is not proof. What are they going to say, "ESD isn't that big a problem...don't buy our equipment." Photos of voltage damaged circuits is not proof. Granted, this is not proof either:

I have been around comptuers for 20 years and I have not seen anything happen.
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Because of course, you can't prove a negative. It is also extremely difficult to prove to a company that something isn't going to cause a catastrophe. One guy is telling the president, "Y2K will shut us down - computers think 2000 is 00 and we will lose money". The other guy is saying "it doesn't work that way." The next thing you know everyone is buying water and canned goods, afraid of the new year.

So what is proof of ESD? We know static electricity exists. We know "high" voltage hurts some chips/circuits. We know some circuits stop working for some reason.

But, can our fingers cause damage? Not simulations, but real fingers? Have there experiments where circuits were examined under an electron microscope, touched repeatedly in the worst possible static conditions, and then examined again? Both old technology we are less likely to encounter and modern technology we see everyday? If so, I will be happy to sing the praises of ESD protection.

Otherwise, all I see are theories and overreaction. It doesn't prove ESD, to me anyway. (EE for 15 years - computer builder w/o ESD gear for 24 years - failed to prove in the late 90s that my chair was Y2K compliant)
 
kinglerch said:
But, can our fingers cause damage? Not simulations, but real fingers? Have there experiments where circuits were examined under an electron microscope, touched repeatedly in the worst possible static conditions, and then examined again? Both old technology we are less likely to encounter and modern technology we see everyday?
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You've got the cart before the horse here. Simulations aren't the reason that we think ESD causes damage. Simulations were implemented after we figured out that static electricity caused MOS-fabricated parts to fail in order to test and measure. They're trying to quantify the effectiveness of the solution; they're not there to demonstrate the problem exists.

This issue dates to the early 1970s and early 1960s when commercial MOS devices first became available. They were incredibly fragile, and devices built using them had very high failure rates compared to bipolar devices. It was at that time that the issue was studied and the problem diagnosed.

If you want to prove it to yourself, you can do the same experiment I suggested above.

I don't think you'll find detailed studies using fingers because destructive testing of a known phenomenon using an inconvenient and highly variable source isn't interesting; it isn't likely to teach us much.

kinglerch said:
If so, I will be happy to sing the praises of ESD protection.
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Let me know when you're done with the lyrics, and I'll lay down a funy phat diabolical bass line for you.


kingerch said:
(EE for 15 years
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This is the most shocking part of your post. (Get it? Shocking. Ha ha ha ha ha ha!) If you're a professional, practicing EE, then I can't understand why wouldn't know about ESD in detail, or at least why you would be skeptical of it.

Semiconductor parts are made from silicon (which conducts electricity) and insulators. The insulators have a very low diaelectric constant, are very thin, and therefore break-down very easily. Imagine that every input to a MOS part has a capacitor between the input and ground, and another capacitor between the input and Vss.

Those capacitors are in the picofarads (if not smaller) in capacity. But their rating is only in the hundreds of volts. Showing the capacitor a charge of more than a few hundred volts (not even a few thousand, like in a typical static discharge you might begin feel) rips the insulator and breaks it down. The input is either torn apart from the gate it was driving, or fuses that gate. Either way, the circuit is irreparably damaged because the input is useless. It's possible that the insultator only partially breaks down; this is the kind of failure that causes instability in a system that involves the part.

One of the big improvements (that I know about -- and you must know about more, since you're an EE) was getting costs down so that clamping diodes could be put across each input and the rails to dissipate a greater amount of energy before ripping the insulator.
 
mikeblas said:
I don't think you'll find detailed studies using fingers because destructive testing of a known phenomenon using an inconvenient and highly variable source isn't interesting; it isn't likely to teach us much.
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It could teach us what the real world ESD threat is. For example, if ICs made in the 60s and 70s (when improperly handled) have a failure rate of 1%, but modern ICs have a failure rate of .1%, and when handled within a PCB (due to inherent circuit characteristics/impedance) fail .01% of the time...we could act in an educated manner.

While I think it's stupid to say ESD doesn't exist at all, I think it's equally stupid to handle (as I see at my company) discrete resistors with wriststraps and ESD bags. I've also seen "floating" (no ground) buildings and copper ESD rooms.

Without real world numbers (and just because I haven't seen them doesn't mean they weren't published somewhere) ESD damage is too nebulous for me. All I read is that it does exist and it's better to be safe than sorry. But I'm not going to buy earthquake insurance just to be safe...if I live in Ohio and the chances are .00001%.
 
SarverSystems said:
RAM is the most suseptible to ESD damage from what I've found. It appears to be the smaller the circuitry, the more damaged it is. CPU, RAM, and chipset seem to be the worst at getting zapped by ESD.
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So I guess walking around with sticks of ram in your pockets (without anti static bag) is bad? :rolleyes: You guys are totally making a bigger deal out of this than you need to. I've never damaged a piece of hardware with static and I DO put ram, cpus, etc in my pockets. Never worn a wrist strap, don't work on a mat, don't even have a mat under the boards when I bench test them. Guess I'm just lucky.
 
kinglerch said:
It could teach us what the real world ESD threat is.
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After a certain point, the failure rates don't matter. You end up in a situation where you want to do everything possible to avoid causing damage because it means retesting and burn-in in house before shipping, and expensive in-field failures after shipping.

kinglerch said:
While I think it's stupid to say ESD doesn't exist at all, I think it's equally stupid to handle (as I see at my company) discrete resistors with wriststraps and ESD bags.
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It depends on where the resistors are going. If you're about to solder them onto a board with other ESD-sensitive parts, well ...

kinglerch said:
Without real world numbers (and just because I haven't seen them doesn't mean they weren't published somewhere) ESD damage is too nebulous for me. All I read is that it does exist and it's better to be safe than sorry. But I'm not going to buy earthquake insurance just to be safe...if I live in Ohio and the chances are .00001%.
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So you're looking for a study that shows failure rates for ESD-sensitive devices which were handled improperly, compared to rates for devices which were handled properly?

poncho said:
Guess I'm just lucky.
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Yep.
 
mikeblas said:
After a certain point, the failure rates don't matter. You end up in a situation where you want to do everything possible to avoid causing damage because it means retesting and burn-in in house before shipping, and expensive in-field failures after shipping.
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The key part of your statement is after a certain point. What is the certain point? 1%? .0000001%? Because if the failure rates don't matter, I have the following to sell you:

- Y2K compliance documents, procedures, and rework
- Thermonuclear protection stickers (from Oakley)
- Markers for the edge of CDs that make them play better (sold in the 80s)
- $100/foot audio cable that machines guarantee "sound better"
- Earthquake insurance for your Ohio home
etc, etc

mikeblas said:
So you're looking for a study that shows failure rates for ESD-sensitive devices which were handled improperly, compared to rates for devices which were handled properly?
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That would be nice. If someone is selling equipment to prevent failure, is it unreasonable to ask what rate of failure they are helping to prevent? If I only handle resistors, or chips, or PCBs how would my failure rates change?
 
kinglerch said:
The key part of your statement is after a certain point.
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That point isn't a number. It's a point in the product cycle.
 
99% - of all ESD is from a human.
89% - of that is from human not being grounded to the casing or the chip.
50% - of that is from the human not following BASIC ESD PRECATIONS.
the other 50% - of the 89% is from the human not using ESD PRECATIONS correctly.

the only sure way not to have ESD is to work in a 'clean room' with electro-discharge flooring, tables and workstations - wearing a clean room suit with all hair and breathing covered. Using a wrist strap and still always touching the metal casing first.

(this is from day one of ESD training at SawTech.)
 
kinglerch said:
I am more inclined to agree with nigerian_businessman. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a myth but at the very least I would say ESD has been overblown. (pardon the pun)



This is what I think is lacking in the ESD argument. Proof. Is there actually proof? This is not proof of ESD:



This is not proof either:



Lots of companies buying ESD equipment is not proof. Information from companies that make money selling ESD equipment and magazines is not proof. What are they going to say, "ESD isn't that big a problem...don't buy our equipment." Photos of voltage damaged circuits is not proof. Granted, this is not proof either:



Because of course, you can't prove a negative. It is also extremely difficult to prove to a company that something isn't going to cause a catastrophe. One guy is telling the president, "Y2K will shut us down - computers think 2000 is 00 and we will lose money". The other guy is saying "it doesn't work that way." The next thing you know everyone is buying water and canned goods, afraid of the new year.

So what is proof of ESD? We know static electricity exists. We know "high" voltage hurts some chips/circuits. We know some circuits stop working for some reason.

But, can our fingers cause damage? Not simulations, but real fingers? Have there experiments where circuits were examined under an electron microscope, touched repeatedly in the worst possible static conditions, and then examined again? Both old technology we are less likely to encounter and modern technology we see everyday? If so, I will be happy to sing the praises of ESD protection.

Otherwise, all I see are theories and overreaction. It doesn't prove ESD, to me anyway. (EE for 15 years - computer builder w/o ESD gear for 24 years - failed to prove in the late 90s that my chair was Y2K compliant)
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I've seen ESD damage under a 100x stereo microscope - when some moron didn't use the wrist strap at a workstation.
 
kinglerch said:
Without real world numbers (and just because I haven't seen them doesn't mean they weren't published somewhere) ESD damage is too nebulous for me. All I read is that it does exist and it's better to be safe than sorry. But I'm not going to buy earthquake insurance just to be safe...if I live in Ohio and the chances are .00001%.
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Exactly my point. If I had encountered just one piece of equipment that failed, and I could find no other explanation except ESD, then I would take the precautions. However, I haven't, so as far as I'm concerned it's nothing to worry about. Certainly nothing to go out and spend money to prevent.
 
nigerian_businessman said:
Exactly my point. If I had encountered just one piece of equipment that failed, and I could find no other explanation except ESD, then I would take the precautions. However, I haven't, so as far as I'm concerned it's nothing to worry about. Certainly nothing to go out and spend money to prevent.
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Where I work we build $50,000 to $250,000 inertial navigation and flight management computers. If a $1.5 billion Space Shuttle or $35 million F/A-18 crashes and kills somebody due to ESD damaged equipment we take it very seriously. So we do spend lots of money to prevent it.
 
Frank4d said:
Where I work we build $50,000 to $250,000 inertial navigation and flight management computers. If a $1.5 billion Space Shuttle or $35 million F/A-18 crashes and kills somebody due to ESD damaged equipment we take it very seriously. So we do spend lots of money to prevent it.
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one thing I heard while at my internship this past summer (electrical engineering internship)

"If you actually have to take precautions against ESD, then you shouldn't be using the part"

however, i think i would add.. in order to protect something from ESD, it really doesn't take much.. so it's really not a big waste of money.. so why not do it i guess...
 
RancidWAnnaRIot said:
"If you actually have to take precautions against ESD, then you shouldn't be using the part"
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ahaha.

Did this company build every one of thier products using bipolar transistors and RCL parts only? :D
 
Frank4d said:
Where I work we build $50,000 to $250,000 inertial navigation and flight management computers. If a $1.5 billion Space Shuttle or $35 million F/A-18 crashes and kills somebody due to ESD damaged equipment we take it very seriously. So we do spend lots of money to prevent it.
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How do you ground things in space, Frank? Seriously: in thin atmosphere: (high for an F-18, low for the shuttle) doesn't the shuttle build a charge? How is it dissipated? Does it matter, if the whole ship is so charged?
 
gee said:
ahaha.

Did this company build every one of thier products using bipolar transistors and RCL parts only? :D
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LOL!!!!

nah... they did a lot of defense work too LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but i think the guy that said it was making hte point that.. if you just handle it normally with no ESD protection.. and the part fails often.. then you know it's a crappy part.. because parts these days are very resiliant.. especially against ESD

but i guess i shoudln't say much more about that...

i mean i think it's a good point about ESD.. but it's soo cheap to protect against ESD.. i don't see why you shouldn't take teh precaution..
 
mikeblas said:
How do you ground things in space, Frank? Seriously: in thin atmosphere: (high for an F-18, low for the shuttle) doesn't the shuttle build a charge? How is it dissipated? Does it matter, if the whole ship is so charged?
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eveything is "grounded" to the chassis of the airplane...

so.. the airplane itself is isolated from everything else.. and the electronics are referenced to the airplanes chassis.. so there is not earth grounding.. but there is grounding... if the chasis picks upa charge relative to earth ground.. it will not affect the electronics.. becasue the electronics are referenced to tha chasis... basically the electronics will not see the extra charge on the chasis... there is the possibility of things like ground loops and stuff.. where there is a bit of difference in the chasis.. but that's a howle other story.. and if something is designed well.. it's not an issue

if the air plane flys through a thunder cloud. the airplane picks a change relative to earth ground.. but the electronics are referenced to the chasis.. so even though the chasis gets a charge. teh electronics are fine, since they are referenced to the chasis (which has a charge.. but it doesn't matter becasue it's isloated.. as long as it doesn't get hit by lighthing... LOL!!!)...

however.. something like a solar flare can screw things up.. but that's not really ESD..

so.. no it doesn't matter if the whole ship is charged.. as long as isolation breakdown doesn't occur.. (which will pretty much never happen because you cannot pick up more charge per square area than is on a cloud that could cause breakdown in the atmosphere...)

it would be crazy if an airplane generated lighting LOL!!!

what's cool.. is in a sense teh airplane bgecomes a capacitor if it's charged and is flying over earth.. with the plane being one plate of the capacitor.. and the surface of the planet being the other plate lol...

you can even model the planet itself as a leaky capacitor (leaky because of lighitng)
 
Interesting, so if I build a highly sensitive e-field detector, all the raptor stealth wouldn't do much...then again, the field is probably so weak that it does not matter..
 
mikeblas said:
How do you ground things in space, Frank? Seriously: in thin atmosphere: (high for an F-18, low for the shuttle) doesn't the shuttle build a charge? How is it dissipated? Does it matter, if the whole ship is so charged?
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I believe Rancid answered the question quite well. The case is grounded to the airframe and if everything is charged up to the same voltage there is no problem. ESD damage occurs usually when people are handling components and modules. The person and components are at different voltage potentials and when the components are touched the static is discharged through them.
 
i was watching something on tv about planes building up electrons and were actually getting hit by lightning! they fixed the problem by channeling the electrons down the wings to antennas on the wing. this would disapate the electrons into the air instead of staying on the plane.
 
drizzt81 said:
Interesting, so if I build a highly sensitive e-field detector, all the raptor stealth wouldn't do much...then again, the field is probably so weak that it does not matter..
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Oh yea.. the field would be so weak.. that basically background fields will drown it out... so.. you won't be able to detect anything...

the field would be rediculously low.. i'm just saying.. technically.. the plane & the planet create a capacitor..

but yea...
 
protias said:
i was watching something on tv about planes building up electrons and were actually getting hit by lightning! they fixed the problem by channeling the electrons down the wings to antennas on the wing. this would disapate the electrons into the air instead of staying on the plane.
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cool


and i apologize for the grammar errors in my previous post lol.. i just read it now.. i was in a hurry when i typed it..
 
RancidWAnnaRIot said:
LOL!!!!
i mean i think it's a good point about ESD.. but it's soo cheap to protect against ESD.. i don't see why you shouldn't take teh precaution..
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My point about ESD is not really the expense. In some cases the expense, time, effort, training, etc can be a lot...but I don't mind if it's for a good reason.

Let's assume that ESD exists and touching circuits with bare hands can damage them. Is it unreasonable to ask what the risks are? I wasn't able to find any information (I've looked) regarding the failure rate of ESD. 1%? .01%? 10 times x? What does the risk reduce to? Even with ESD precautions, none of the companies selling ESD equipment claim it eliminates the risk.

For me it is like selling insurance. I will buy it only if I know the risk and payout. Would you buy insurance from a company who says "We don't know the risk of x happening, nor do we know the reduced risk if you buy our product...but it's cheap so why not?"

Otherwise, all of you who live on the east coast can send me $10 and I will fully insure you against earthquakes. There hasn't been earthquake damage since the dinosaurs, but it's cheap so why not?
 
Does anybody know if its safe to take out a spare PSU I have in storage, plug that into a wall, then clip myself to that with my wrist strap?
 
SarverSystems said:
I can just lay my motherboard on an ESD bag when I need to work on it. FALSE. An ESD bag will only work if the item is completely enclosed in the bag. The object must be completely surrounded by the bag, and the bag must be sealed for it to do any good.
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Laying your motherboard down on a AS baggie wouldn't do it any harm from coming into contact with the surface below, however, it doesn't act as any grounding agent if you are working on it. Perhaps clarify this sentence a bit more so people know. Putting your board on a ESD bag is a much more sound practice than not using any at all.

SarverSystems said:
The styrofoam peanuts that Newegg (and other places) ships their products in must be safe then, right? FALSE. There is no such thing as ESD-safe packing peanuts. Ever notice how they want to stick to your arm, and everything else when you pull your items out of the box? Yup, you guessed it. That's static electricity making them stick to your skin.
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You do get packaging peanuts designed for electronics, esd packaging peanuts do not esd your components such as regular peanuts do. I've only seen a few vendors ship with EDS peanuts, most including newegg, ships with regular penuts... they stick everywhere... annoying too.

The downfall to these is that you don't know the difference between them, so they can be easily mixed or confused. Also, ESD peanuts costs nearly twice the price.


http://www.esdrmv.com/ESDProducts.asp
http://www.harborpkg.com/2-CustomPkg/returnables-custom.html

here is a general search:
http://search.yahoo.com/search?&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=esd+packaging+peanuts
 
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