Engadget confirms Win7 upgrade rules

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guppy

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I'm thinking of canceling my pre-order of Win7 Upgrade for sure now because this upgrade method is BS and I was not made aware of the method *before* I ordered the upgrade disk. Obviously I was not made aware pre-purchase by design and if had known this before placing my order I would have ordered the full version but now I will have to pay full price to get the full version. Yea, I got fucked over by Microsoft once again.


Is this BS too?

http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/14/microsoft-confirms-windows-7-rc-upgrade-rules/

As October 22nd hastily approaches, Microsoft is slowly but surely dropping all sorts of knowledge on to-be Windows 7 buyers. The latest tidbit about the forthcoming OS revolves around upgrades, with a company spokesperson reportedly confirming that users running an activated version of Windows 7 Release Candidate will not have to "reinstall an older version of Windows before using a Windows 7 upgrade disk." Unfortunately, those who choose this path will see all of their files and such ushered into a folder labeled "Windows.old" when the final version of Win7 is installed, essentially putting a damper on what would've been an otherwise awesome experience. Interestingly, the fun doesn't stop there; if you ever need to reinstall the final version of Win7 from scratch using the upgrade copy you purchased, you'll first need to install (and activate) a copy of XP or Vista, which is different that Vista's somewhat more lax upgrade policies. Check out the read link for the full spiel, and make sure you wrap your noodle around it good before you go off pre-ordering the wrong box.

BTW, I fully expect to get flamed for this post by the Microsoft stalwarts but I won't be responding to you so don't waste your time. Have a nice day. :)
 
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I'm not sure where your problem lies. Is it the fact that your files are going to be in this "windows old" folder and you'll have to move them back over? Or is it that you think you're should be able to upgrade an RC to the final version without owning or losing the use of an eligible existing OS like everybody else?
 
Arainach that made me lol :D

The only problem is maybe he doesn't have a valid version of windows for the upgrade? pirated or through technet etc or otherwise non-retail windows? As for those people with Windows 7 RC they should've already known that they were not dealing with a finalized version of windows and that it wouldn't be a smooth move over to the final version

edit forgot that he could be running Linux, OSX, etc...
 
I came into this thread expecting some new information. That Engadget article is old and I believe it has been discussed before. So you're a little late to the party. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that, and you can miss a discussion. I just thought this was going to be something new. Either way it's an upgrade version, so what exactly did you expect? Like MrGreg62 asked, what is your exact problem? Do you not have a legit, activated copy of Windows on your machine to upgrade from? Is it something else entirely?
 
Jerome36 said:
I came into this thread expecting some new information. That Engadget article is old and I believe it has been discussed before. So you're a little late to the party. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that, and you can miss a discussion. I just thought this was going to be something new. Either way it's an upgrade version, so what exactly did you expect? Like MrGreg62 asked, what is your exact problem? Do you not have a legit, activated copy of Windows on your machine to upgrade from? Is it something else entirely?
Click to expand...

The problem lies in the fact that if you ever need to format, you need to install vista or xp THEN 7 which is a pain in the ass. There are FAR FAR better ways to verify an upgrade license than this.

A simple solution is for the 7 installer to ask for your Vista or XP license, then perform the activation check on that license (check for HW changes etc like the normal activation does). If that passes, it allows you to install 7. Far far cleaner process then having to install Vista then 7 over it everytime you reformat.

Upgrade license is just that, having to have an old OS version installed is kinda redundant.
 
I'm not responding to anyone here specifically but it seems there is some confusion as to what my gripe is. I would have thought it is rather obvious because there is one major change from how upgrades were done in the past. It requires an installed and activated OS before you can do the upgrade. You guys a bit dense or what?

And I have legit copies of XP, Vista, Win2KPro, Win95, Win98, Win98SE, WinME so the implications of being a pirate just don't fly buckos.

Yes, this issue has been discussed before but that was MaximumPC article as the source and some people claimed it was BS. I have never seen the Engadget article confirming what MaximumPC and a few other sites said until today. If Engadget was referenced before as a source then point me to it.
 
See? Demingo gets what the issue is so why not the rest of you? It's not just having to install previous OS but having to activate it too that is an issue. I was not made privy to this info until after I placed my pre-order. None of this info was released until after the pre-order special was over either, which was July 11th for North America. That fact makes me suspect that it was done by design.
 
This would be a show stopper for me. Does Windows 7 require Vista or XP binaries in order to run? Of course not. Why should I have to install it first then?

Well here's my guess at why. In the past, when performing an install with an upgrade disk, proving ownership of said requisite prior software was simple - pop in the old CD or give it a key, nothing too hard. Well, since proof of legitimacy is such a problem for MS (hence the creation of the genuine "advantage" program) MS can't even trust their own loyal law abiding customers anymore. Having a prior OS installed, that has had the genuine advantage stuffs installed and verified, seems to be the real reason.

This, to me, is absurd. No it's not easy to prove legitimacy, but surely there is a more elegant way to handle this than force the user to install an old OS.

Think of this (possibly) not too unlikely scenario. I own XP and an upgrade copy of Win7. It's several years from now, after end of life for XP (and security patches). In order to reinstall Windows 7, I first will have to install XP with likely known unpatched security flaws, put it on the net to patch it to a sufficient requisite level to get WGA, and this becomes my base install for Win7. I don't think it'd be too hard to target these users with attacks, and they can't do anything about it.

Edit: Sorry, got beat to the punch...
 
guppy said:
See? Demingo gets what the issue is so why not the rest of you?
Click to expand...

The problem is you didn't give any specifics as to your particular issue with the upgrade rules. We're not mind readers, and your OP is so poorly worded (no offense), that the only thing you get out of it was you were not aware of the upgrade rules prior to making your pre-order purchase. Seeing as there are no specifics, to expect everybody on this board to just know right off the bat what you're talking about (and not one or two people) isn't going to fly either bucko. :p
 
well didn't think of that way so thanks for the clarification!

For me, I was just thinking of putting in an n-lited version of win2k pro (or maybe vista business that I never installed) in, go for a run, start up the windows 7 upgrade then take a shower n finish up the rest of the install.

For the WGA can't you just go to windows update immediately after starting up windows then update? Isn't that the second thing XP tries to get you to do after you install the updated windows update? I know the first thing I do is update windows xp as soon as its installed because it is such an unsecure OS. Also, unless Microsoft gets hacked I don't see how you would get mal-ware on your computer. If a person has the ultimate goal of installing windows 7 and you knew how to since you are installing an OS (as most regular people won't even bother with installing their own OS) then you would be pretty quick about just doing the WGA and just going straight to the install of Windows 7.

Furthermore, why would someone buy an upgrade now and wait a few years to install it? I'm assuming that by then they should know that this is the upgrade process. I'm sure that Microsoft will include instructions on how to upgrade so that the customer would know about it and if the customer didn't read the instructions with the upgrade they purchased then it is the consumers fault

I'm guessing I just don't see the big fuss over it. lol

In the end though I agree that this probably isn't the best way, but it doesn't really inconvenience me.
 
There's nothing really "new" in that article at all.


It's been known for quite some time that an over the top upgrade install from RC to final code would not be permitted. That instead a 'custom clean' install would be required for that transition just the same as it is for a license upgrade which is not (in practical and doable terms) a 'valid upgrade path'. You gotta do a custom clean install if you're moving from 32-bit to 64-bit. You gotta do a custom clean install if you're moving from a domain networking version to a simple networking version.

And it makes perfect sense that people are similarly restricted when moving from pre-release code to final release code. There's always the chance that late changes to te code will impact on the capacity to carry across user settings successfully, so the over the top upgrade install gets blocked for that circumstance. We've seen it before for previous Windows releases too. It's nothing new and unusual.


As for the 'need an activated install' part of it all that claim is still "unconfirmed" It remains "unconfirmed" until it becomes either a formal, official statement from Microsoft or a behaviour which has been confirmed by somebody using an upgrade install key with the finalised installation disk. Nobody has yet got access to an upgrade install key, and nobody will for a while yet. (Anybody remember how the 'Upgrade' details for Vista weren't conclusively known until just a few days before Retail Relase, when upgrade keys were made available to techie folk?)

Oh! And to date the only 'Microsoft' comments about this have been email messages from one or two Microsoft employees, not formal company anouncements.


It's looking increasingly likely that an activated qualifying install WILL be required. Those people who've accessed and closely examined the final code disk image are reporting that there are differences to its structure which weren't present for Vista. Those diferences are the presence on the disk of ID which determines (XP style) the version which the disk will install. The ONLY rational purpose for including that code is to impact on the upgrading. There was, basically, nobody exploiting 'loopholes' in the Vista installation to have 'better versions' installed. The only exploits which were common knowledge was the 'install over the trial install' exploit which allowed an unqualified upgrade install to be put in place. It's kinda silly that they've knee-jerked to close that loophole, but it looks like they've done it.



And, in any case, for a competent and sensible person this move DOES NOT really represent a 'problem'. It's only going to genuinely inconvenience those silly folk who think that an over the top upgrade install is even desirable! Nobody in their right mind would want to do an over the top upgrade to transition from Release Candidate to Final Release code anyways! Or from one Windows version to the next! For such transititions a clean, fresh start is ALWAYS the best course to take.


A sensible, competent person confronted with such a transition will do the preparations first. ensure that any and all data is off the system partition and safely on other drives or partitions, so that after the new install is performed it'll need only the changing of 'location' for the various data storage poiunters to have all data back again and accessible. A sensible, competent person will be accepting the need to reinstall software, and closely examining the library of currently installed software to determine what amongst it the 'new version' of Windows renders unnecessary or incompatible.

And a sensible, competent person will be having a good, close look at the procedures to determine what the easiest way to deploy a clean installation (using the upgrade media and key) actually is!



For XP and earlier that entailed having a previous version disk handy and popping it in when prompted during the install.
For Vista that entailed using the install disk WITHOUT entering an install key to put a trial install in place, and then running the actual (custom clean) installation from inside that.

For Windows 7, it appears, the sensible move will be to use drive imaging software to make a ghost image of the activated previous version, so that later the image can be deployed to a new hard drive, and the custom clean installation of 7 can be run from inside that.





Addendum: It appears unlikely that making a drive image of an activated Release Candidate install will be a sensible move, considering that the Release Candidate becomes functionally unusable altogether after end of June next year. But that'd depend upon precisely what happens when the RC release actually does expire, and I've currently not got a 'test' install of the RC release here to play with and find out. Only RC install I have in place is in use, and I can't be arsed to run out another (disposable) one.

But point is that in a 'rendered no longer usable' scenario there's generally always very limited functionality left behind, to enable the situation to be corrected or to allow the user to find out HOW to correct it. and that very limited functionality can usually be exploited to access the file shell. If such exploits exists for an expired RC install, then that expired RC install can be used to launch a custom Clean install with Upgrade media and key. The expired install would still be an activated install, most likely.

I'd not bother with that though, really. A drive image of an activated previous version installation is easy enough to make, and would be all the 'preparation' necessary for future installs forever after!
 
What did you think would happen? You'd get the upgrade disk and be able to install without a previous OS installed? That'd be silly, and by extension, MS might as well require the OS to be activated as well... Just get the retail/non-upgrade version and don't worry about it.
 
SpaceHonkey said:
Think of this (possibly) not too unlikely scenario. I own XP and an upgrade copy of Win7. It's several years from now, after end of life for XP (and security patches). In order to reinstall Windows 7, I first will have to install XP with likely known unpatched security flaws, put it on the net to patch it to a sufficient requisite level to get WGA, and this becomes my base install for Win7.
Click to expand...

Not a problem, and if you or anybody else thinks it's a problem then that's the result of a failure to comprehend the Vista and beyond 'Upgrade' process.

From Vista onwards it no longer really matters if the previous install is kaput or corrupted. Not even if an over the top upgrade install is performed. Because from Vista onwards the previous 'problems' don't get inherited by the later install.

Beginning with vista, the 'upgrade' process has become:


  • Migrate the data, user settings and software installs out of the current install and quarantine them safely aside temporarily.
  • Obliterate the old install and put a clean, fresh install of the new version in place.
  • Migrate the data, user settings and software installs into the new clean install.


It's a far superior process to what we saw with previous Windows versions, where an 'upgrade' meant simply overwriting certain files of the previous install, and all the various corruptions left in existence. From vista onwards even an 'upgrade' install is, effectively, a 'clean' install.
 
I've never done an upgrade install on top of the previous OS with any upgrade version. I've never had to have the previous OS installed and activated before either but it looks like that is about to change. Being the "competent" person I am I would never have bought upgrade Win7 if I had known this is how it would be. Now it is too late to pre-order full version at the reduced price thanks to Microsoft's incompetence in not telling us this is how it would be before we placed our orders. I guess some of you just don't get it and never will so I will just go and cancel my Win7 Upgrade pre-order and be done with it. Vista64 does everything I need anyway, so does XP come to think of it. Gee, I don't even need Win7. Win-Win for me!
 
Although I love Win7, I just cancelled my Newegg order. I was expecting to be able to do a clean install of the OS with the Upgrade disc as long as I could provide my Vista disc during installation. Since this is not the case, I will just wait until Win7 comes out and buy a Full version.

Plus, this 7100 RC seems pretty trouble-free and will last me until March 2010 (as far as I know).
 
...... I don't see what the issue is. Just delete the windows.old folder. You have a cleanly installed OS either way. It's not patching over old files. It's installing 7 and moving everything else to the folder.
 
guppy said:
Being the "competent" person I am I would never have bought upgrade Win7 if I had known this is how it would be.
Click to expand...

The term used was actually "competent and sensible". It had two components, not just one.


The "sensible" part of it would indicate a person who didn't shrinlk from a more desirable option simply because that more desirable option introduced a rather minor annoyance/inconvenience. The "sensible" part of it means recognising that, despite the minor annoyance/inconvenience, that upgrade pack is still a migrateable license, both practicvally and legally. Choice between Retail Upgrade and OEM System builder? Price is basically the same but the Retail Upgrade is a better license, so the scales fall in its favour EVERY TIME!

And the "competent" part of it means that the minor annoyance/inconvenience doesn't (or shouldn't) really even rate a second thought!


:D
 
We differ on just what sensible is. Installing two OSs and activating both just to get one OS installed is not sensible in my fantasy world. The sensible thing would have been for Microsoft to have been upfront about this from the beginning and then I would have just pre-ordered the full version instead and could have used Vista on another of my 4 computers.
 
Pre-ordering the full retail version via the formal channels would involve paying twice the price, at least. With respect to the cheap upgrade pre-order deal it's four times the price! Paying twice the price (or more) purely and solely to avoid what is actually a relatively minor annoyance does not constitute "sensible" in either a fantasy world OR a real world!

Waiting and later obtaining an OEM System builder kit and license is an alternative which is pretty much 'same price'. (You can't pre-order those, though). Even then it entails obtaining a product which is actually a 'lesser license'.
 
Pre-ordering full version I think was $129.00 CAD, which is still at least $100.00 less than it will be come Oct. 22nd. I never buy OEM because then I would be breaking that license when I move it to a new PC. With retail I am not.

Isn't Technet a yearly subscription?
 
Yes, but you don't need to renew it. You can keep whatever came out during your subscription period. Action Pak needs to be renewed annually, but has less restrictions on use.
 
Problem solved. Don't bother with an upgrade.

For crying out loud. If it is such a hassle just get the full version and get over it.

The bickering over such a trivial thing is mind boggling.
 
Two words MSDN/Technet. Well MSDN is technically 3 word so 4.

This is a great time to by these and you can always find deals on them. I've been using MSDN for 13 years continuously either through my own purchase or through work. Yes, I know the EULA says certain things. I also know that if you use the software for your own personal use that Microsoft doesn't give a rats ass about the EULA on those programs. Ask any subscriber of those programs. It's the best deal in commercial software there is overall IMHO.

I saw a Craigslist add a few months ago with a guy listing his MSDN subscription for sale because he said he was about to loose his house. I really felt bad for him. That said don't do this. Get your subscription, keep the stuff to yourself and you'll wonder why you ever went retail.

Keep in mind that Office 2010 is coming so if you pick up one of those subscriptions, TechNet can be had for like $300 or less, you'll be set with Windows and Office for $100 per year for the next three years and the copies never expire. Hell even when I was a kid with no job I could come up with $100 a year. It's just not a lot of money.
 
I have a solution
Get your damn upgrade disk and do your install. Once that is done and running the way you like it make a damn image of your hard drive and save it in a safe place. Programs like Bootit NG work wonders for this. Then, if you ever need to reinstall just reimage the drive, done, no hassles.
 
Now I understand the complaint but I think it's a bullshit one.

Technically Engadget hasn't proven a thing nor has Hot Hardware, the site that Engadget got the information from. They're still using the Beta for the upgrade advisor. It's even in their screenshot. They offer no proof of anything. No links to a source. There are NO upgrade discs or keys available for anybody to confirm anything with yet (which is something MS has handled very poorly).

However, for the sake of argument let's assume it does need an activated OS in order to upgrade. Acronis True Image FTW or some other imaging program. Seriously some of you are just whiny babies that don't want to put forth 10 minutes of work.

Load the OS once and activate. Take the backup image. Upgrade to Windows 7. Now if you have to reload the system quickly put the image back on and you don't even have to boot it. Just boot off your Windows 7 disc and poof look. There's an activated OS on the HDD. Oh here's an even better idea. Image your Windows 7 after it's been installed. OMG THE HORROR!!!!!

For the record I hope this all turns out to be FUD just so I can laugh at those of you who cancel your pre-orders based on unproven information.
 
Catweazle said:
As for the 'need an activated install' part of it all that claim is still "unconfirmed" It remains "unconfirmed" until it becomes either a formal, official statement from Microsoft or a behaviour which has been confirmed by somebody using an upgrade install key with the finalised installation disk. Nobody has yet got access to an upgrade install key, and nobody will for a while yet. (Anybody remember how the 'Upgrade' details for Vista weren't conclusively known until just a few days before Retail Relase, when upgrade keys were made available to techie folk?)
Click to expand...

Which is exactly what we told him in his previous 6+ page bitch session about this.

Obvious troll is ________?

A.) Obvious
B.) Hairy
C.) under a bridge
D.) Obvious
 
If I use an Acronis or Macrium image of my activated system, it won't require activation again on a reload? (have an image of current Vista, with 2 7-64 upgrades ordered)
 
InorganicMatter said:
Oh no, they've closed the loopholes so people can't game the system any more...BOO FRAKING HOO!!! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Ignorant reply is ignorant?

There is a legit differnce between cheating the system, and being forced to go through redundant steps.

There is absolutely no reason the win 7 installer cant just have you input your license, perform the activation check vista or xp would, verify you can upgrade and let you go from there. Having to actually have it installed is retarded.

And to those suggesting to just take an image of the HDD.. that doesnt work so well when you swap motherboards and the image has the wrong drivers. There are plenty of legit reasons to do a clean install on a formatted drive
 
demingo said:
that doesnt work so well when you swap motherboards and the image has the wrong drivers.
Click to expand...
While I agree with some of your points, mainly about finding a happy medium between the loophole, and needing to be activated, I do have some issues with this part.

First, you could always make a clean, base image that's installed, with no drivers loaded. Second, if you've ever tried this with Vista, it is much more forgiving when booting up with the wrong drivers installed.
 
DeaconFrost said:
While I agree with some of your points, mainly about finding a happy medium between the loophole, and needing to be activated, I do have some issues with this part.

First, you could always make a clean, base image that's installed, with no drivers loaded. Second, if you've ever tried this with Vista, it is much more forgiving when booting up with the wrong drivers installed.
Click to expand...

Give the man a kewpie doll!

You can also boot into Safe Mode and remove any extraneous drivers before allowing the system to boot up completely. This isn't rocket science. Some people are just too damn lazy to do things themselves.
 
Once again though, I am talking about having to do extra work with no legitimate reason. I definately think MS could have handled this better. I have no issue proving my license is legit, but I'd really prefer to just be able to pop the upgrade disk in, not have to go through several steps.

For example, when I get my upgrade CD, I need to:

1. Format my system
2. Do a clean install of Vista. (using RC)
3. Install 7
4. Remove extra drivers in safe mode
5. Create an Image
6. Restore drivers for use of 7

Compared to:

1. Format drive
2. Install 7

All I am saying is that it is A LOT of extra work when it could have been handled much better. The 7 installer could easily take my Vista key, verify that it is the proper computer, permit the upgrade license, and go. At the same time it could active my 7 key. The entire process between entering both license keys and verifiying would take about 2 minutes... I personally would have prefered a cleaner solution to jumping through loopholes.


P.S. To your too damn lazy comment.. Please kid, grow up. I manage a 400 person user enviroment as my job. So when I get home and need to install Win 7 on my 3 home systems, I'd like it to be as easy as possible. After 60 hours a week of supporting PCs, I just want to relax at home and get upgrades done as painlessly as possible and not spend my time away from work performing redundant steps to get an OS going. I'd much rather spend time with the wife and kid than making images of all my home systems.
 
demingo said:
P.S. To your too damn lazy comment.. Please kid, grow up. I manage a 400 person user enviroment as my job. So when I get home and need to install Win 7 on my 3 home systems, I'd like it to be as easy as possible. After 60 hours a week of supporting PCs, I just want to relax at home and get upgrades done as painlessly as possible and not spend my time away from work performing redundant steps to get an OS going. I'd much rather spend time with the wife and kid than making images of all my home systems.
Click to expand...

Because you can't do your job in 40 hours MS should bend over and change it for you?

1. You do the upgrade once which is just "stick in the disk".

2. Since you are so "awesome", you would have an automated backup system at home so you could just "relax at home" when fixing the machine if the HDD crashed.

Eesh...your chest thumping is funny. God...you are like a weight lifter that comes home from the gym and bitches that about safety bottles for perscriptions being so hard. :rolleyes:
 
Trepidati0n said:
Because you can't do your job in 40 hours MS should bend over and change it for you?

1. You do the upgrade once which is just "stick in the disk".

2. Since you are so "awesome", you would have an automated backup system at home so you could just "relax at home" when fixing the machine if the HDD crashed.

Eesh...your chest thumping is funny. God...you are like a weight lifter that comes home from the gym and bitches that about safety bottles for perscriptions being so hard. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Your post is frankly... sad. I do enjoy how you make assumptions and completely ignore the discussion of the thread. We are discussing how the activation system works, and how it could have been imporved upon. Other posters like deacon helped futher this with debate.

Your only addition is to make assumptions and not contribute anything to the discussion? Lame man, lame. Same advice to you, grow up, stop with personal attacks, and actually learn to contribute to a discussion.
 
demingo said:
P.S. To your too damn lazy comment.. Please kid, grow up. I manage a 400 person user enviroment as my job. So when I get home and need to install Win 7 on my 3 home systems, I'd like it to be as easy as possible. After 60 hours a week of supporting PCs, I just want to relax at home and get upgrades done as painlessly as possible and not spend my time away from work performing redundant steps to get an OS going. I'd much rather spend time with the wife and kid than making images of all my home systems.
Click to expand...
I'm in a similar boat, in terms of being a one man IT department. However, I'll add two more comments. First, drive imaging systems have become so easy, that the average user could do it themselves, and quickly. Most of them can be kicked off within a minute's time, and they will run by themselves. You'd only need to do this once to create a good image all three of your systems could use...and then you'd only need to retrace the process anytime you had to rebuild....which leads to my next point.

Windows 7 and Vista have gotten so good at self-tuning and maintaining themselves, that the days of reinstalling every few months are gone. While this process is detailed and takes longer than older upgraded processes....you won't be doing it nearly as often.
 
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