Emachines M6809... sparks and pictures "Fire Plug"

M

Matt126

Gawd
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
812
The reason behind the subject of this thread will become apparent pretty soon here.

First, let me start with the story.

I was sitting around at a friend's house, not much to do.. Someone gets an idea that they want to watch a movie that I had on my laptop. My friend has a 53inch Hitatchi TV, which is slightly larger than my laptop screen, so I figured I'd hook up up to that using an S-Video cable. I get the video working fine, and then I notice my battery starting to get low. I grab my AC power adapter, I plug it into the the wall first. I then go to plug it into the back of my laptop. I go to plug it in, trying to find the hole to plug it in, and POOF a huge spark and a puff of smoke right in my face. I stood there in shock for a second, then examined the situation. The laptop seemed fine, it did not shut off. The TV however did shut off. I turn the TV back on, and the display is working, whew, big relief... until I noticed there was no sound. All sound, internal speakers and audio out, ceased to work.

There is visible burn marks near the AC port, which you can clearly see in this picture.
final_fire_plug.jpg


Heres a link to the high resolution picture... (1.7mb)
Click here


As you can see, there is clearly a metal ring around the outside of the port. This metal appears to be part of the chassis itself. When the plug came in contact with it, poof...

Here is a few things I'm asking myself right now, and feel free to give me some input..
Is this a manufacturing defect specific to my laptop? Maybe someone with the same one can answer this question, does yours look the same?

What do you think emachines will do about this situation? I already got an RMA number and explained the situation. They said they are going to try and "recreate the incident". They also said they don't know what they can do about the TV.

Did the TV act as a ground for my laptop? Had I not had it plugged into the TV, would my laptop have taken the hit instead of the TV?

Should I demand a new laptop? They said they were going to look at this one, and possibly give me the same one back if they found "nothing wrong".

That's really all I can think of right now. If anyone has any input at all please respond to this thread.

-Matt
 
To bad. I think it's standard with most electronics, atleast if you read manuals, that you should always plug in the poweradaptor to the laptop first THEN plug it in to the wall.
 
You'd be wrong in this assumption, I checked the manual. It does not specify an order in which to connect the AC adapter.
 
Whats the ramification of you not looking at the picture closely before you tell Matt to RTFM? OOH I know! You look like an idiot... There is a piece of the chassis sticking out into the area where you plug the power in. You could brush that when unplugging it even if the manual says to plug one in before another. (which matt states it does not but I would reccommend him reading it twice to be sure) Matt all the luck to you getting your freinds tv replaced as well as a new laptop which wont short out and kill other appliances in the process.
 
man that sucks, gl with getting new tv and laptop, hopefully emachines can idenitfy the problem and fix it pronto
 
DEJAL could you snap up a pic so we can see if it looks to be a design flaw or quality assurance issue.
 
your kidding me right?, its like the most popular laptop there is, best bang for your buck gaming wise
 
you got the "bang" right =)

This was one of the laptops I was originally looking at getting.

Oh, well
 
Let me say something.. It was a great laptop up until this point..

If this problem turns out to be a isolated freak accident, I would still recommend this laptop to anyone.

I only pose one question to you all...

What would you do?
 
Originally posted by Matt126
Let me say something.. It was a great laptop up until this point..

If this problem turns out to be a isolated freak accident, I would still recommend this laptop to anyone.

I only pose one question to you all...

What would you do?
Click to expand...

Well, here's what I would do, but honestly, I don't hold out much hope that you'll get reimbursed. The question is, do you want to do what's best for your individual situation, or do you want to try and get the manufacturer to fix the problem? If you just want a quick resolution and to get your apparently undamaged laptop replaced, you'll probably have to bite the bullet on the TV.
  • You did the right thing by contacting the manufacturer of the notebook. You also did the right thing by photographing the evidence. If you haven't sent the laptop to the manufacturer though, I'd hold off on doing so until you know what you wanted to do. If you wanted to fight for reimbursement of the TV, you might need the laptop as evidence to report to the Consumer Products dudes.
  • With regards to the TV, I'd bet that portions of the main logic board are fried and will need to be replaced. Expect a several hundred dollar repair bill. The question is, who pays? If you want quick resolution and a replaced laptop, you probably do.
  • I'd ignore asinine comments like the one from the obvious moron in the thread.
 
"DEJAL could you snap up a pic so we can see if it looks to be a design flaw or quality assurance issue."

It looks the same as the picture, a slight chrome rim around the white. There is a slight chance that something inside is broke and that made contact with the exposed metal causing the short, but I'm not going to be the guinea pig.

Isn't there someone here who has a volt/ohm meter AND a 680X that can check to see if it's live?
 
I contacted emachines again, and they claim they will not under any circumstances cover the TV, and they willl not replace the laptop unless they deem it damaged beyond repair. I've been advised to either contact the BBB, or get a lawyer. I have no clue what I'm doing right now. I still have the laptop in my posession. I do have a volt meter and I will test that metal ring and see what I come up with...

More to come..
 
I bet you that Metal ring is the chassis ground. It looks as though the ring is connected to the outside of the power connector. The + line goes to the center of the connection which is usually the case. There may be a short inside the connector or the plastic insulator on the connector itself might have a bad spot.
 
Here's the first test...
It would appear that an electrical current would have little trouble traveling from point A to point B. The ring to the S-Video port. 0 resistance.

0k.jpg
 
That Measurement doesnt suprise me.

It looks like what your measuring is chassis ground of the laptop. I am starting to wonder if there was some sort of ground fault between the TV and the laptop that caused the flash. The outside of the power connector is negitive so the only thing i can think of is that "chassies" had some sort of a potential (since it is a floating ground while the laptop is not plugged in) on it maybe from the TV and when you plugged in the power connector it pulled it straight to ground and poof sparks.

The only way i can see that happening is if the negitive of laptop Power supply and the ground of the 3 prong plug are common to each other.

I am not sure if its a bad design of the laptop or the TV.

-Peace
 
I thought that if you grounded it, it doesn't hurt anything, it's just when you short two different live wires to make a circuit that it jacks stuff up. Not an electrical engineer, but my dad is, I will ask him.
 
with the laptop unplugged the grounds are floating and will goto whatever potential its connected to, in this case the TV. Just guessing if the TV had some type of voltage on the svideo connector that would cause that laptop ground to goto whatever voltage the svideo cable is. I havent measured the power supply of the laptop to see if the ground prong of the power supply and the ground of the power supply laptop plug are common.

To me its the only thing that makes sense, once it was plugged in the circuit was complete causing a ground fault completed via the laptop power plug.

In my opinion if the laptop power plug (120vac side) ground and the laptop power plug side are common then that is a bad design by emachines for just this type of problem your having. I have seen other laptops that have a two prong plug design which could be a better design.
 
I measured the ground plug to the negitive of the DC side of the power supply and i was right, there is about 15 ohms of resistance through the brick.

Knowing that i better be careful what kind of devices i hook to this laptop or leave the ground floating so things dont go boom.

-Peace
 
That is why I stay away from Emachine. Sorry, hope you get it fixed.
 
could the problem be the TV? maybe it didn't have a good ground so it went through the laptop when u grounded the laptop?
 
I go to plug it in, trying to find the hole to plug it in, and POOF a huge spark and a puff of smoke right in my face.

Did the TV act as a ground for my laptop? Had I not had it plugged into the TV, would my laptop have taken the hit instead of the TV?

Should I demand a new laptop? They said they were going to look at this one, and possibly give me the same one back if they found "nothing wrong".
Click to expand...


My guess is as you were "searching around" for the hole to plug into the laptop you inadvertantly shorted the center conductor to the shield (ground). Since the laptop was already connected to the TV via the s-video then that short was also transmitted to the TV placing a "small" DC voltage on ground. What happens after that is up to Murphy as to where it goes and what it does or does not affect. Since a lot of digital circuitry works on 5 vdc or less signaling even a 9-12 DC adapter voltage can pop junctions.

You're probably out of luck getting anything on the TV replaced, unless it's under warranty. Now that E-machines is aware of the situation they may or may not choose to help. This honestly sounds like the error was on your part and not a specific defect of hardware, which means the manufacturers are not liable to fix the damage.

As far as your multimeter readings of the adapter you have to be careful taking ohm readings of components that are still attached in the circuitry, the readings can be misleading unless you isolate certain components. Electricity takes the path of least resistance, which could be a coil or transformer winding, for example giving the low reading. Also since semiconductors normally only allow the flow of current through them in one direction, try swapping the meter leads (positive and negative) on the points you are testing to make sure it's not a semiconductor junction being forward biased by the meter's batteries.
 
How could the error be on my part? Why is the chassis exposed in this area to begin with? In my opinion plugging in my laptop should be fool proof. I should not have to worry about getting it perfect every time, and the idea of that is just preposterous. Emachines has already said they will not under any circumstance take responsibility for the TV, and I'll be lucky to get a new laptop if they find any "damage". The only damage they're going to find is a nice burn mark. I'm very interested to see what they're going to do when and if I send it back.
 
Having exposed ground is common place on laptops its not anything new. I defintly feel that the issue may have been with the TV and not the laptops. Take your voltmeter and check the resistance between the ground prong on the laptop power adapter plug for the wall and the outer connection on the point where you plug the adapter into the laptop.

I did this and I got zero resistance between the two connections I mentioned. Then I went one step further and checked between the ground on the outlet plug and the VGA/S-Video connection. Again zero resistance. Unless your laptop's ground system is damaged. This does not seem to be the fault of E-machine and seems to be a ground problem the whe TV/reseptical you plugged it into.

I have seen faulty TVs and Monitors damage equipement they are plugged into. I plan to replicate this event on my two TV's at home tonight and see what happens. My TV's and Laptop have a extened warranty plan so I'm not worried.

I truthfully believe this is another case of "It's an E-Manchine so it must be the laptops fault."
 
Also another note. Something I just noticed if you look at the connection for the A/C adapter to the laptop ther is no positive terminal exposed so its imposible to short positive against the ground of the chassis.
 
matt

your best option would be to contact the emachines pr people, not the tech people, and refer them to this thread and the amd forum thread. they will them have some incentive to investigate whether it is the computer, the tv or the power supply that is at fault..
 
I am not questioning your answers King, I just think it could have been easily avoided by not having the chassis exposed in that area to begin with. And if you were in my situation, you would probably be thinking the same thing. I have been in contact with the corporate office as well as tech support, they have no interest in seeing pictures or forum threads. They just want the laptop.
 
Originally posted by Matt126
I am not questioning your answers King, I just think it could have been easily avoided by not having the chassis exposed in that area to begin with. And if you were in my situation, you would probably be thinking the same thing. I have been in contact with the corporate office as well as tech support, they have no interest in seeing pictures or forum threads. They just want the laptop.
Click to expand...

I dont think it has anything todo with the chassies being exposed since the same thing would have happened even if you did not touch the chassis and plugged it right in. All the outputs on the back of the laptop should have a common ground point if not it would be a nightmare.

Looking @ it more iam leaning towards a problem with the TV's svideo output and not the laptop. All the laptop did was complete the path to ground and i think any laptop that has a ground plug in the AC side would have done the same thing.

King:
I got about 15 Ohms which is about what i would expect to see.

darktiger:
It has nothing do do with the fact thats it is an emachine but thanks for the input :rolleyes:

-Peace
 
from the emachines website -

There's always something happening at eMachines. Now you can be among the first to know about new product launches, product awards, strategic company moves and more. For PR inquiries, please contact Mike Kilroy with Maples Communications at 1-949-477-0710.

if you think emachines isn't reacting well to the incident, (and, wherever the problem lies, they should at least i guess be keen to ensure that the fault isn't in their equipment) this guy should be in a position to kick up an appropriate fuss...
 
That's what keeps me from buying a Laptop other than a Dell. Dell's power bricks have the best connectors I've ever seen. They don't have that crappy barrel design that is prone to breakage. And it's grounded both at the AC outlet and at the notebook itself. I hope Sager's are similar in design.
 
Yeah the design Dell uses is top notch. I really like that. It's a shame others don't use something similiar.
 
Matt I would give that pr guya call and see what he can do for ya. And as for Dell they make great laptops but have also gone back to the barrel approach for the D series of centrino laptops. What they don't have in common with the emachine is... METAL STICKING INTO THE AREA THE PLUS GOES IN! No one has really mentioned the fact that this seems to be the ONLY reason this incident occurred.
 
ouch. sorry to see this happen to an owner.

i know on my 6805 that you have to push the plug in the back and about a third of the way it feels like it clips onto something to hold it into place...

was this before or after the sparks and smoke?

good luck to you. 3 year warranty looks better and better all the time.

/emXry
 
I can't tell from the angle on the picture, but does the metal come out flush to the opening, or are they inside the jack like mine?. If I look at mine from the same angle, it looks the same and I know that there's nothing wrong with my jack. On mine there are three chassis pins that come out toward the center pin.

These peices of metal are supposed to go to chassis; they are what makes it safe to use the notebook while you're sitting on the can. You want the metal parts of the computer to be the same potential as the pipes in your house, the floor, and anything else that you might touch. Even if you don't get a deadly shock, I wouldn't even want a slight tingle if I happen to be holding my noteboook while I'm barefoot and it makes me jump and drop it.

The television, and any other audio and video equipment are a different story. Very few of those have the earth ground terminal, and there may be a pretty big voltage difference between the "chassis" of a television and earth ground. Use your voltmeter on AC and check the difference between the shield of the video plug on the powered-up TV and earth ground on an outlet. I wouldn't be suprised at all if you read a nice, steady 80VAC. Usually the only good ground you get with an audio/video setup is the antenna line coming in to the RF jack, and oftentimes that is also improperly grounded.

I can almost guarantee that there is nothing wrong with the notebook that caused the TV to go. As long as the metal in the collar of your DC jack doesn't obstruct the insertion of the plug or can come in contact with the center pin on the plug, it is fine. While you may have had good luck hot swapping that equipment in the past, I would bet that in the manual for the TV it tells you to turn it off before connecting anything.

Check the voltage on the powered TV "chassis" vs. Earth Ground, and I'll bet you'll see your problem.
 
Matt, I was going to mention that a TV uses a floating ground which is stupid for the amount of current that hanging around inside the TV. Also you know s-video doesn't carry sound right only video? I would save your money on the attorney because if E-Machine contests you will loose. It would be far easier to go after the TV manufacturer.

Also, 15ohms is within reason for the distance of cabling between the frame and the end of the power adapter. I just used the diode function on my fluke it just tells if there is a "short" aka conductivity.

Finaly, Dell has switched back to the Barrel design on its newer laptops. I know for ta fact the new 600m Centrino uses one.
 
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