Electrical for HT question.

rudy

rudy

[H]F Junkie
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I know this is a little off topic but all the forums out there with decent traffic appear to be for pros only.

I have attached an image from my electrical box. I was wondering if you had any idea why they did this? From my understanding I cannot figure it out. They have used 2 breakers to do the job one breaker should have handled just fine. I am wondering if I can just remove the standard 15a breaker and drop the GFI breaker in that slot. The GFI is just hanging loose without any postitive contact to the postitive bars.

electrical%20blunder.png


If I turn both breakers on and press test, nothing happens.

I would like to fix this, I also need to find space to get a dedicated circuit to my HTPC because I am getting a ground loop hum, probably caused by all the CFLs.



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So that GFI is just hanging out in the breaker box? wtf!

Call an electrician.

edit: Ok, now I get it. The neutral (white) wire for that circuit is going through that GFCI breaker for some shithead reason. Totally wrong. It should go right to either neutral bus bar, and that GFCI breaker should be removed.

Also, TURN OFF THE POWER BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING! The big ass wires at the top will still be live though. Or, like I said, call an electrician.
 
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Yes it is just hanging in the box. It goes to the master bathroom so I assume it should be a GFCI
 
The way GFI works is by comparing the current on the hot side to the current on the neutral side. If there's a difference, that means electricity is finding another way out of the system... most likely through somebody... so it trips. The way it's wired up now, if the circuit even works at all, it's only comparing the neutral current against itself.... which would always be the same and it can't do shit if someone were getting electrocuted..
 
If that's for the bathroom I strongly suggest having an electrician out to install it correctly. Big time hazard right there.
 
The breaker needs to be properly installed in the box so it plugs into the bus bar and powers the hot.

Is the breaker above your (+) not connected to a black wire?
 
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drescherjm said:
The breaker needs to be properly installed in the box so it plugs into the bus bar and powers the hot.

Is the breaker above your (+) not connected to a black wire?
Click to expand...

It is connected, it just looks a little high. The one breaker the + points to just happens to be the only breaker where the wire seems to come out of the center of the breaker.

Do you guys think that maybe the previous owners had issues with the GFCI tripping constantly, so they decided to do this in a very backwards way of bypassing it?
 
Do you guys think that maybe the previous owners had issues with the GFCI tripping constantly, so they decided to do this in a very backwards way of bypassing it?
Click to expand...

It looks like they ran out of space to properly install it on the main bus and did not know how to properly get around that limitation.

What you need to do is get a breaker that has 2 independent circuits like the 3 you dual 15A breakers have on the left you have at the at the top and consolidate 2 of the breakers into one so that you can make room for the GFCI. However with this mess up no telling what other blunders they did... If you do attempt to do this it make sure you only do this with the same A circuits. I mean do not try to mix a 20A and a 15A. And also make sure you get the correct Square D tandem circuit breaker, meaning do not replace a 15A with a 20 or a 20 with a 15.

With all of this said. You may want to call an electrician. This can be dangerous.
 
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AFAIK that loose GFCI you see will fit exactly in the space that it is connected to through the black wire. Which is why I am so puzzled. If you look further up in the box you will see another identical GFCI with a yellow reset button which is properly placed.
 
Ok......the GFCI not connected to the buss bar has no feed (+) correct? If it has no feed,it's not protecting anything and I would assume there was a problem with it triping for some reason. Most GFCI breakers in a residential panel are there to protect 1 of 3 things mainly, either the bathroom outlets.....kitchen outlets near sinks or outside receptacles.I'm a comercial electrician who hasn't done much residental but the few times I did run into this problem helping out a friend I found at times they run off of the bathroom GFCI to feed an outside receptacle and either a bad cord outside...or christmas lights getting wet outside would trip the GFCI and this seems like an attempt to get around the triping breaker. I would first.....put that GFCI back on the buss bar and try and see where the offending circuit feeds. Is it the bathroom recpetacles that feeds an outside receptacle as well....or? Edit......a GFCI also does not play well with motors,refrigarator compressors will trip them as the cycle on and off,maybe an oustside water pump for a pond,landscaping waterfall or such that the cord has broken down and is getting wet are a couple of afterthoughts.
 
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rudy said:
AFAIK that loose GFCI you see will fit exactly in the space that it is connected to through the black wire. Which is why I am so puzzled. If you look further up in the box you will see another identical GFCI with a yellow reset button which is properly placed.
Click to expand...

Yes, it will. Thats a GFCI breaker, it should be in place of that other breaker to protect the bathroom outlets so you don't get killed.

Call an electrician to check things out.
 
AFAIK that loose GFCI you see will fit exactly in the space that it is connected to through the black wire. Which is why I am so puzzled. If you look further up in the box you will see another identical GFCI with a yellow reset button which is properly placed.
Click to expand...

It needs to connect to the bus bar. It will not do that when it is floating loose in the panel. You can not fix this by connecting the black wire to the breaker and leaving the breaker float loose. That would be very dangerous and it would not make the GFCI or breaker work anyways. Call an electrician.
 
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Check to make sure you do not have any other interrupters wired in series with what would be the GFI breaker in the panel. Even though they should not interact with each other, i have seen cascading units cause strange problems. This could be the problem the previous owners were trying to troubleshoot.

If you choose to run the branch circuit without the GFI breaker, you may do so (see caveat at the end of my post); the neutral line should be disconnected from the floating GFI breaker and connected to the neutral bus bar at the top of the breaker panel. Then remove that entire floating GFI breaker from the panel.

IF you choose to do this, you must install GFCI outlets at point of use wherever the outlets or connected devices may come in contact with water or condensation. IF you happen to have a spa tub connected to this branch (not likely given rating and 110v cabling) or lighting within a shower stall then install a new GFI breaker in the panel or you will need to retrofit the wiring in the bathroom to install a ground fault circuit interrupter in between the panel and any at-risk equipment/outlets.
 
Did you not get an inspection on your place when you bought it?

Your breaker panel is overloaded, even without the GFI dangling there. It does not meet code and should be upgraded.
 
Zangmonkey said:
Did you not get an inspection on your place when you bought it?

Your breaker panel is overloaded, even without the GFI dangling there. It does not meet code and should be upgraded.
Click to expand...

How exactly is his breaker panel "overloaded".

Those double handle breakers are perfectly fine provided the panel is rated to take them.

You're not adding up the amperage of each branch breaker are you? It doesn't work that way.
 
valve1138 said:
How exactly is his breaker panel "overloaded".

Those double handle breakers are perfectly fine provided the panel is rated to take them.

You're not adding up the amperage of each branch breaker are you? It doesn't work that way.
Click to expand...

Your breaker panel needs to have at least two empty knockouts, per code.
The dangling GFI breaker is because there are no spaces available.
He has three more breakers in the panel than code would allow, and the GFI is not appropriate, it is dangerous.
 
I did have my place inspected, there are many problems with the home. However it did not matter this house would have been purchased any way because it was a forcloser sold as is and a good house for the money. Never bothered me much because I do most of the work myself.

I decided to wire the GFCI breaker in correctly to the box and remove the normal breaker. I will see what happens. If the GFCI keeps tripping I will track it down, if I cannot track it down I will call in an electrician. The box is definitely very full. There are at least 4 tandem breakers. However the main has never tripped in the 4+ years I have lived there. I have contemplated having the whole box ripped out and upgraded but at this point I do not want to drop 2k on that, when I am not sure how much longer I will be here.

Dalfo002 I think there probably is another GFCI, the outside plugs all have one. I think the side door has one.
 
rudy said:
I did have my place inspected, there are many problems with the home. However it did not matter this house would have been purchased any way because it was a forcloser sold as is and a good house for the money. Never bothered me much because I do most of the work myself.

I decided to wire the GFCI breaker in correctly to the box and remove the normal breaker. I will see what happens. If the GFCI keeps tripping I will track it down, if I cannot track it down I will call in an electrician. The box is definitely very full. There are at least 4 tandem breakers. However the main has never tripped in the 4+ years I have lived there. I have contemplated having the whole box ripped out and upgraded but at this point I do not want to drop 2k on that, when I am not sure how much longer I will be here.

Dalfo002 I think there probably is another GFCI, the outside plugs all have one. I think the side door has one.
Click to expand...


Why would you ever tolerate an improper breaker box?
It may not trip, it may just start a fire.

Especially if you can do the work yourself, spend a little money on a proper sized panel and wire everything correctly.
It's not like breakers are that expensive.
 
Zangmonkey said:
Your breaker panel needs to have at least two empty knockouts, per code.
The dangling GFI breaker is because there are no spaces available.
He has three more breakers in the panel than code would allow, and the GFI is not appropriate, it is dangerous.
Click to expand...

Cite the NEC where it says you need two knockouts please.

Three more breakers? Huh? Again, cite the code that supports this.
 
Mostly I forgot about the issue, but recently as I said, I needed to address a ground loop humm. So I decided to address all the electrical issues at once. I guess that means death by electrocution does not scare me as much as my HT sounding bad.
 
Rudy, do you own one of those outlet testers? The thing you plug in and it has the three lights that tell you if a plug is wired correctly?
 
No I only have the 1 light outlet tester, live or dead.
 
valve1138 said:
Cite the NEC where it says you need two knockouts please.

Three more breakers? Huh? Again, cite the code that supports this.
Click to expand...

I can't cite it. I know that in Nevada residential code calls for two vacant knockouts and no double tapping.
EDIT: some googling indicates that double taps in some breakers like the SquareD in the OP may be permitted under code but not really good practice.

The GFI dangling with absolutely be an issue.

OP should either:
Install a larger panel, eliminate the dangling GFI, eliminate the double taps and leave extra slots.
Or install a sub-panel to accomplish the same goals without upgrading the entire panel.
 
That loose GFCI breaker is retarded. It's not doing anything if the circuit that it's SUPPOSED to be protecting isn't hooked up to it, and it can't do anything if it's not snapped in to the bus bar (that hot connection isn't a magic unicorn).

If I were me, I'd fix it myself, and probably add a sub panel for my new toys. If I were you, I'd call a sparky and have one remove the stupid, and put in a sub panel for your toys.
 
I already fixed it myself. I considered a sub panel, but it seemed like if I was going to waste money on that I might as well just pay to get the whole thing replaced. I only have a 100 amp main, it does fine for what I have, but if I hosted a larger LAN party I think I would not be able to handle it.

Also I do not think all states have the same electrical code. Not sure but they sell the tandem breakers in home depot here and the guys there never mention them being against code. I also showed an electrician my box and there was no mention of 2 empty slots. My guess is this is not 100% to code here in MI, but right now I am not going to drop 2k on a new panel.

I should also mention that I think I have no less than 3 grounding rods, lol.
 
Zangmonkey said:
I can't cite it. I know that in Nevada residential code calls for two vacant knockouts and no double tapping.
EDIT: some googling indicates that double taps in some breakers like the SquareD in the OP may be permitted under code but not really good practice.

The GFI dangling with absolutely be an issue.

OP should either:
Install a larger panel, eliminate the dangling GFI, eliminate the double taps and leave extra slots.
Or install a sub-panel to accomplish the same goals without upgrading the entire panel.
Click to expand...

Yes, the dangling GFI is an issue, but everything else you mentioned is not, unless he's in Nevada.

And the two vacant slots sounds wrong. If you always have to have two empty slots thats a lot of wasted breaker panels.

Also, those Square D breakers have space for two wires under the screw down.
 
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rudy said:
I already fixed it myself. I considered a sub panel, but it seemed like if I was going to waste money on that I might as well just pay to get the whole thing replaced. I only have a 100 amp main, it does fine for what I have, but if I hosted a larger LAN party I think I would not be able to handle it.

Also I do not think all states have the same electrical code. Not sure but they sell the tandem breakers in home depot here and the guys there never mention them being against code. I also showed an electrician my box and there was no mention of 2 empty slots. My guess is this is not 100% to code here in MI, but right now I am not going to drop 2k on a new panel.

I should also mention that I think I have no less than 3 grounding rods, lol.
Click to expand...

All states adhere to the NEC, or National Electric Code, as a base, they may add to it however they chose though.

It looks ok, those Square D panels are tanks. If you look at the label for the model number you'll be able to look and see if double breakers are allowed in that that panel. Also the model number might be something like D100-20/30. That 20/30 indicates 20 regular size breakers, with the 30 allowing for some double handle ones.

The only concern I have is that cloth covered wire on the right.
 
Well rudy, i must know; did you get rid of the line noise that was bugging you?
 
the cloth covered wire goes strait down to the ground and through the cement in the basement below the load center. I will assume that is the oldest of the grounding rods.

I think I did solve my noise issue with the subwoofer, but I have not had much chance to test it. It was variable in intensity before.
 
LOL. wow i had to post when i saw that picture. that had to be a numnuts that did that. i assume youve already called someone to fix that. if you havent, i would.
 
Not yet, but we I certainly have not done much. Nothing has been run off the outside plugs and I do not blow dry my hair. Also best I can tell my electrical box does not support any tandem breakers but I have 4. The only weird thing is, the map of the box where you write what each breaker connects to, shows a line for about half the breakers, to me this would indicate that is where you write the labels for tandem breakers. I wonder sometimes If I should not just try to rip the box out and put my own in myself.
 
I'd have an electrician do the swap, you have to have the meter yanked out. Best to get it done correctly.

You are correct about those lines. Some panels will have specific spots for those tandems.

You could very easily go to a 100amp 30 space breaker panel. And if you have an overhead service it's pretty straightforward to go to a 200amp service. In that case you could even convert that existing panel into a sub panel by unbonding the neutral bus bar. Then just move you bigger loads over to the new panel.
 
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