DX10 only with Vista?

Brent_Justice said:
How come there is still so much confusion on this?

It seems pretty simple to me:

DX10/SM 4.0 is Vista Only, No DX10 API for XP

DX9.0L is to allow Vista to run DX9 and under games in hardware

EOS
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Wrong!

You can use all the nice SM4.0 stuff through OpenGL extensions even in Windows XP or Linux for that matter. So Windows Vista is not required for SM4.0 and I seriously doubt there are any real limitations making it impossible to make a DirectX version supporting SM4.0 for Windows XP. M$ just wants to get their hands in PC gamers pockets really fast. They are literally trying to force PC gamers to move to Vista as fast as possible.
 
Its not simply a matter of MS' greed - Vista and DX10 rely on a new driver model with lower level access to the hardware. To make DX10 for XP large chunks of the OS and basic subsystems would need to be rewritten and they are not going to do that when they have a shiny new bauble for you to buy (Vista).
 
DirectX 9 is available for Windows 98 and 2000/XP. I'm sure there's at least as much difference between these OS's as between XP and Vista.
The decision to not support XP is purely economic, IMO.
 
theriverlethe said:
DirectX 9 is available for Windows 98 and 2000/XP. I'm sure there's at least as much difference between these OS's as between XP and Vista.
The decision to not support XP is purely economic, IMO.
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Wrong--the graphics display API for Win98/2000/XP is the same, GDI, with updates and extensions over time of course. The API for Vista is completely rewritten. Likewise with DX9 and 10. DX9 was able to run on older OS's because it was an extension and development of previous DX's (and was running on the same GDI API, as mentioned above). DX10 is completely rewritten (again in part because of the new system API). The closest analogy for the move from XP to Vista is the move from DOS/Win3.1 to Win95. Not a perfect comparison, but it gets across the significance of the transformation under the hood.

Of course MS wants to motivate people to change in order to increase upgrade rates and thus profits. But this isn't just an artificial incompatibility hack, like say nVidia's driver hack to keep you from running SLI on Intel chipsets. This is a real incompatibility brought about by significant change. And not just change for the sake of planned obsolescence, but change intended to make things better.
 
Wasn't the move from 9x to NT as big a shift as DOS/Win3.1 to 9x?

Unless the new API directly accesses the new drivers, which would probably be a very bad thing, I don't see why they couldn't back-port it. You wouldn't have the performance advantages of running it on Vista, but why couldn't it be done?
 
aop said:
Wrong!

You can use all the nice SM4.0 stuff through OpenGL extensions even in Windows XP or Linux for that matter. So Windows Vista is not required for SM4.0 and I seriously doubt there are any real limitations making it impossible to make a DirectX version supporting SM4.0 for Windows XP. M$ just wants to get their hands in PC gamers pockets really fast. They are literally trying to force PC gamers to move to Vista as fast as possible.
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You could use SM4.0 through OpenGL extensions, but these extensions don't exist (yet) It remains to be seen if Nvidia/AMD will add these extensions.
 
DX10 is all well and good... but I wish vista was out NOW so I could get this stupid upgrade out of the way. I hate being in limbo.

Hurry the fuck up microsoft and release this damn thing!
 
hi,

are there any dx10 demos out there, except nvidias ones for the 8800?

or only for windows vista?

I'm confused now......
 
Yashu said:
DX10 is all well and good... but I wish vista was out NOW so I could get this stupid upgrade out of the way. I hate being in limbo.

Hurry the fuck up microsoft and release this damn thing!
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I think alot of people are holding off upgrades for this reason. I personally believe with all the changes to the OS, DX and hardware, theres got to be bugs. I'll upgrade now and then wait at least 6 months before I jump into vista. by then hopefully the bugs will be fixed and the hardware prices for DX10 cards should be much more reasonable.
;)
 
mito said:
hi,

are there any dx10 demos out there, except nvidias ones for the 8800?

or only for windows vista?

I'm confused now......
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there are no 8800gtx demos out
 
Domini said:
there are no 8800gtx demos out
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are you sure?

what about that fish demo and the lake with the mountains in the background?

I thought that was the latest technology regarding sm...
 
mito said:
are you sure?

what about that fish demo and the lake with the mountains in the background?

I thought that was the latest technology regarding sm...
Click to expand...

i think thats just from the dx10 sdk
 
theriverlethe said:
Wasn't the move from 9x to NT as big a shift as DOS/Win3.1 to 9x?

Unless the new API directly accesses the new drivers, which would probably be a very bad thing, I don't see why they couldn't back-port it. You wouldn't have the performance advantages of running it on Vista, but why couldn't it be done?
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Yes, NT was a big move for Windows, but they used the same display API-named GDI-for both it and the Win9X series. Helped to improve software compatibility and made programmers' lives simpler. They just ported GDI--which I think stands for Graphics Device Interface--over to the NT architecture.

As for the second part, well, it's the other way around, the drivers access the display API. And yes they do so directly, that's what it's there for, to communicate with them. But all the parts work together--how the video card drivers interact with DX, how DX interacts with the API, how the whole display process interacts with the CPU, the file system, the memory manager, etc. etc. etc. And most of those parts have been changed in Vista into something entirely new and not backward compatible. And the changes are good ones--the new system is more stable, more adaptable, more efficient, and so on.

You can't translate one part of that into XP without translating the rest, which would be turning XP into Vista, which is what they did when they created Vista in the first place. It's a logical impossibility. It's like going into a restaurant and deciding you want a single burger with cheese, but then asking the waitress to add another patty and some bacon. You might as well have ordered the double-bacon-cheeseburger from the menu, because you've just turned your burger into the same thing. Or like complaining that you can't play compact discs on your old phonograph. The parts just aren't there!
 
Martyr said:
considering dx10 isnt being released at the vista launch, idk
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Excuse the hell outta me??? :confused:
Lemme get this straight.......so Micro$haft is making sure that pc gamers migrate to the new crapola with fancy window dressing and a healthy dose of big brother OS by releasing dx10 ONLYwith vista........
........While telling everyone that dx10 won't even launch at the same time as vista??

What the hell is that?? :mad:
 
StalkerZER0 said:
Excuse the hell outta me??? :confused:
Lemme get this straight.......so Micro$haft is making sure that pc gamers migrate to the new crapola with fancy window dressing and a healthy dose of big brother OS by releasing dx10 ONLYwith vista........
........While telling everyone that dx10 won't even launch at the same time as vista??

What the hell is that?? :mad:
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Dude, read the post directly following the one you just quoted........and you'll see that DX10 has been in Vista since RC2 ;)
 
digital_exhaust said:
Dude, read the post directly following the one you just quoted........and you'll see that DX10 has been in Vista since RC2 ;)
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Actually, I'm running RC1 and DXdiag says I'm running DX10. I think it's been in there since Beta 2.
 
Now I'm really confused....

regarding the fish demo.

it's sm4.0 and dx10?

it'll run only on windows vista?
 
*Edit* On second thoughts, I don't want to go into this.
 
g9s7x said:
Who in god's name is going around telling everyone that DX9L is DX10 for XP?? If I had an STD for everytime I read that in a thread on here I'd be Paris Hilton.
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lol!!!
 
kleox64 said:
very good analogy, the decision for DX10 to be Vista only was the right one in the longterm.
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This wouldn't be a problem if Vista wasn't an ugly piece of shit...

Oh well, I just have to wait for Vista Window Blinds to make my computer look truly classic :(

Damn the tradeoff... ugly OS, beautiful games! :p
 
djBon2112 said:
This wouldn't be a problem if Vista wasn't an ugly piece of shit...

Oh well, I just have to wait for Vista Window Blinds to make my computer look truly classic :(

Damn the tradeoff... ugly OS, beautiful games! :p
Click to expand...

It does have the classic skin/theme built in if you don't want ot use Aero.
 
g9s7x said:
Who in god's name is going around telling everyone that DX9L is DX10 for XP?? If I had an STD for everytime I read that in a thread on here I'd be Paris Hilton.
Click to expand...
STD does not affect your gender...
 
ryan_975 said:
It does have the classic skin/theme built in if you don't want ot use Aero.
Click to expand...
But it's still missing the File bar (and I can't move it to where it's supposed to be), the explorer shell is different, and there's just a bunch of little things that make it seem off. And ergo since most of these things can't be changed to the degree I'd like, and I'm a compulsive perfectionist, I think it's crap.
 
Domini said:
who ever said he was male?
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I think he missed the reference to Paris Hilton being a slut. That was the reference, I believe. His gender is irelevant
 
digital_exhaust said:
Dude, read the post directly following the one you just quoted........and you'll see that DX10 has been in Vista since RC2 ;)
Click to expand...

Sorry. As soon as I read his post I got offended and I had to immediately reply to express my outrage.
:D
 
I pity the fools who'll get shafted into getting Vista. The amount of DX10 titles will be minimal for a loong long time - no game developer will want to hack 95% of their customer base away by making stuff for a niche product. The only titles that will be released for DX10 are the ones MS paid for in advance - just to fool people into upgrading.
 
shrug i wouldn't feel "shafted" into getting vista, i want a 64 bit operating system i myswell go ahead and buy vista now when by your own admission later down the line there will be plenty of games out there that use dx10 so why wait? its no like you can't still upgrade your hardware as needed etc.?
 
Dear friends,

What are the available DX10 demos for the 8800?

Regards,
 
Finn said:
I pity the fools who'll get shafted into getting Vista. The amount of DX10 titles will be minimal for a loong long time - no game developer will want to hack 95% of their customer base away by making stuff for a niche product. The only titles that will be released for DX10 are the ones MS paid for in advance - just to fool people into upgrading.
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Game developers won't have to drop the XP user base to release DX10 games. They are coding their DX10 games to be able to run in DX9 with reduced features and effects. With one notable exception so far--Microsoft's own Halo 2 is DX10 only, and that is upgrade-bait, but given their position it's a move that serves their interests. Not so for the makers of independent titles.
 
So then if you run a DX10 game like Crysis in XP, I guess it'll just run on some emulation layer using DX9?
 
Josh_Norem said:
So then if you run a DX10 game like Crysis in XP, I guess it'll just run on some emulation layer using DX9?
Click to expand...

No, it'll run as a DX9 application, without any of the benefits of DX10. THe same way DX9 apps can have a DX7 fallback mode in case DX9 isn't available.
 
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