Dual Pentium Board for a small server?

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travanx

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My work is looking to upgrade all our computers and I am trying to figure out what parts to look at. My main question is for the server computer. I will be installing Windows 2000 Server and have about 16 computers sharing autocad files. So far I know I want 2, 74GIG SATA Raptor drives running in RAID, maybe 4 to mirror the 2 drives, and at least 2 gigs of ram. Probably some form of middle end Radeon video card.

Now my questions are what dual Intel Processor choices do I have, and what motherboards are good to look at? I am going to make the purchases all from Newegg.com as well, unless there is somewhere better to get this from. Are there any good websites to look up info for dual intel product reviews?

For our normal computers we are looking to buy P4 3.2C processors for $287. So something in that price range times 2 would be good. Any help would be greatly appreciated. As well as any suggestions.
 
Originally posted by travanx
My work is looking to upgrade all our computers and I am trying to figure out what parts to look at. My main question is for the server computer. I will be installing Windows 2000 Server and have about 16 computers sharing autocad files. So far I know I want 2, 74GIG SATA Raptor drives running in RAID, maybe 4 to mirror the 2 drives, and at least 2 gigs of ram. Probably some form of middle end Radeon video card.

Now my questions are what dual Intel Processor choices do I have, and what motherboards are good to look at? I am going to make the purchases all from Newegg.com as well, unless there is somewhere better to get this from. Are there any good websites to look up info for dual intel product reviews?

For our normal computers we are looking to buy P4 3.2C processors for $287. So something in that price range times 2 would be good. Any help would be greatly appreciated. As well as any suggestions.
Click to expand...

I'd look at newegg's Xeon boards. You could probably get an Opteron board and CPU for the same as a Xeon and dual board.

As far as Intel CPU's, you've got a choice between Dual PI, Dual PII, Dual PIII, or Dual Xeon. Either way, you're going to be looking at expensive stuff as far as that goes.

You could get an Athlon MP system for a little less than a Dual Xeon system. Dual PIII is a bit expensive, plus most of them take RDRAM or PC133 ECC (which is really cheap if you know where to look).

If you don't want to spend too much money, you might want to go with a single MP and a Dual MP board. You can always spring for a few extra bucks later and get a second CPU for it if you need it.
 
Is an opteron equivalent to a dual Xeon? I think my only real choice, since we probably won't go with AMD, is the Xeon. Any suggestions on brands or model numbers for Xeon motherboards? I would like to go with DDR ram. Not sure if its too expensive to get 2x1gig, but that way we have an upgrade path for ram. I do not want Rambus because its way too expensive for how much we need.
 
since you are looking for the following correct me if i am wrong

AGP (4x at least hopefully 8x)
2+ gigs of ram
4+ SATA onboard connectors that you can raid
Dual CPU (Xeon Price cap of ~300 usd per chip)

i would go with a Asus PC-DL (great board)
has 8x AGP pro slot (works great)
will handel 4 gigs of ram (only 4 slots though) can run 4 gigs in dual channel mode :D
4+ SATA on board, 2 on the intell chip set, and 2 on the Promise (both will run together and they can be raid'ed but not acrost the pair (iirc))
will run great with 1 xeon (400 or 533 fsb) and ofcourse will run 2 with out any problem.

with your price cap i would go with a pair of 2.8 533fsb for 341 (retail and free shipping) from newegg found here http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-117-016&depa=1

hope this helps.
 
I was just looking at the PC-DL as I read your post. That does look like what we will end up getting. So I see that you need a specific PSU and case to fit the board into. Any suggestions on where to look to buy those from? Newegg is pretty limited on cases.

Thanks for showing those points with the motherboard. Because it does help to see it typed out like you did.
 
Pick up a 1600SC and never worry about having to support the hardware again.
Dual 2.4's, 1Gb Ram and 2 x18Gb SCSI mirrored off of a PERC 3 came to ~$3k if you know where to look for coupons.

If you are intent on rolling your own, a "server" motherboard typically comes with ATi Rage of some type onboard, so no need for AGP.
 
the pc-dl will fit in to any full size atx case, i have my in a mid-tower antec sonata here is a pic of it in the case (ignore the wire mess)

see you can fit 12lb os cpu in to a 10 bl bag D.JPG


and it will work fine with any atx psu (350 watts or better) but you should use a SSI psu, i am using the enermax 3n1 psu and it works great. found here http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-103-488&depa=1
 
I didnt realize that was the setup you had. So how do you like the PC-DL? Can I run 2 RAID HD's and 2 others to mirror that? Also if I can and say the main 2 fail, what happens? Does it just crash and I put the backup HD's on the primary? I have never run both RAID setups at the same time, only the faster RAID.
 
Originally posted by travanx
I didnt realize that was the setup you had. So how do you like the PC-DL? Can I run 2 RAID HD's and 2 others to mirror that? Also if I can and say the main 2 fail, what happens? Does it just crash and I put the backup HD's on the primary? I have never run both RAID setups at the same time, only the faster RAID.
Click to expand...

That's called RAID 10- and that mobo supports it (they call it 0+1)

basically you have a RAID0 array of RAID1 arrays. 2 mirrored drives each, in RAID 0. One issue you might consider, well depending on your backup regimen, is hotspare capability. I don't know about SATA RAID controllers, onboard or PCI based, but on my SCSI systems it's a peice of cake, and automatically rebuilds when you lose a drive.

And 'the faster one' doesn't neccessarily mean 0 or 1. I've had great performance with a RAID1 setup, better than RAID0 (of course, I then went to RAID10 with 15k U320 drives :D ) Depends entirely on your setup, AND data.
 
NOTE

Raid 01!= Raid 10


Common Name(s): RAID 0+1, 01, 0/1, "mirrored stripes", "mirror of stripes"; RAID 1+0, 10, 1/0, "striped mirrors", "stripe of mirrors". Labels are often used incorrectly; verify the details of the implementation if the distinction between 0+1 and 1+0 is important to you.

Technique(s) Used: Mirroring and striping without parity.

Description: The most popular of the multiple RAID levels, RAID 01 and 10 combine the best features of striping and mirroring to yield large arrays with high performance in most uses and superior fault tolerance. RAID 01 is a mirrored configuration of two striped sets; RAID 10 is a stripe across a number of mirrored sets. RAID 10 and 01 have been increasing dramatically in popularity as hard disks become cheaper and the four-drive minimum is legitimately seen as much less of an obstacle. RAID 10 provides better fault tolerance and rebuild performance than RAID 01. Both array types provide very good to excellent overall performance by combining the speed of RAID 0 with the redundancy of RAID 1 without requiring parity calculations.


In simple words, RAID01 is a stripe made of mirrors, and raid 10 is a mirror made of stripes.

I dont think that ASUS sytem allows you to mirror acrost the 2 raid controlers (one is a FASTTRAK 378 and the other is a Intel® Application Accelerator RAID Edition powered by the intel ICH5R chip)


but you can put 2 drives on the top (marked SATA_RAID0 and SATA_RAID1) with 2 PATA drives on the Blue (PATA IDE 133) controler in RAID 0+1 but not RAID 1+0



massive thread on the PC-DL over at 2 CPU with tons of good info in it found here http://forums.2cpu.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40755&perpage=50&pagenumber=1


hope this helps
 
thank you thank you thank you. of course trying to read that description of RAID is kind of confusing at first. I think I have to read that a couple of times to get the idea. Its not helping that I am swamped with normal work while trying to come up with the server parts and config.

Any thoughts on ram for this system? I am ordering Mushkin pc-3200 2-2-2 2x512 for the normal computers. Any certain brands to look for? I need to put 2 gigs minimum in the server.
 
while the mushkin is not listed, it should work fine, here is a link to the supported ram (at the bottom of the page)

http://usa.asus.com/products/server/srv-mb/pc-dl/overview.HTM

right now i am running kingston value ram modle KVR266X64C25/256 (4 sticks for 1 gig) and it is cl of 2.5
i think tyour mushkin should work fine, since the board does support pc3200 or ddr400 ram with out any problems
 
Go with RAID 5. Promise has a pretty affordable SATA RAID controller. You'll need a stick of at least 128MB SDRAM as it doesn't come it (read: required). Buy 4x Drives of whatever flavor you like, and use three in the array, and use the forth as a hot spare in case of drive failure.

What kind of services are you going to be running on the server. Is it just a central storage depot for your CAD files? Hell, whatever processor ou buy now will be up to the task. You should focus on three things. Disk subsystem, RAM, and your network bandwidth.

How big are those CAD files, a couple firms we deal with have files in excess of 500MB (Really big, with textures added does that) Gigabit ethernet really sped up the transfer from client to server and visa versa.

One thing to remember, if you aren't running terminal services where the downstream PCs are using the resources of the server, or you aren't going to be running exchange or other services on the same file server...processors aren't going to matter a whole lot.
 
My boss seems to not mind going somewhat overkill without going crazy on this, probably so it doesn't have to be upgraded so often, plus he said we might be doing some 3D stuff eventually. Our cad files are pretty small right now. Probly not more than 10 megs at most. But I can slow my P4 2.0ghz with Radeon 9200 on a complicated 250k file waterline project I am working on. So this upgrade with proper windows 2000 server config is something the office needs.

So there are constantly 16 people accessing files on our server while the programs are run off their computers. I did get the ok on doing a gigbait switch or switches and cat6 cables for the office. We are a pretty small company (thrifty as well) with not much room, every nook and cranny is being used. So I wanted to run the wires more efficiently through the office.

So thats the story, and the server part of the install is the big deal. And I want to make sure all the parts are good and reliable. Right now I have it down to Asus PC-DL MB, 2 Xeon 2.8's, 4 74GB raptors, Fortron 550w Xeon PSU, YY-W201 Yeong Case. Now I don't know what to get for a video card and 2 gigs of ram. I need to look into that sata raid controller. I am open to suggestions on all the components.

So explain a little more about that 4 drive RAID setup. You can use 3 striped, and if one of those fails the 4th one can take its place automatically? Either way in the mirror RAID, when something fails, how does it fix itself. Does it alert the computer it broke and do something to fix it? Or does it just fix it automatically and tell you a drive broke?

Also any good sites on how to config windows 2000 server for a small network?, like that whole forest/tree thing.

This thread is has been so helpful.
 
Originally posted by travanx
My boss seems to not mind going somewhat overkill without going crazy on this, probably so it doesn't have to be upgraded so often, plus he said we might be doing some 3D stuff eventually. Our cad files are pretty small right now. Probly not more than 10 megs at most. But I can slow my P4 2.0ghz with Radeon 9200 on a complicated 250k file waterline project I am working on. So this upgrade with proper windows 2000 server config is something the office needs.

So there are constantly 16 people accessing files on our server while the programs are run off their computers. I did get the ok on doing a gigbait switch or switches and cat6 cables for the office. We are a pretty small company (thrifty as well) with not much room, every nook and cranny is being used. So I wanted to run the wires more efficiently through the office.

So thats the story, and the server part of the install is the big deal. And I want to make sure all the parts are good and reliable. Right now I have it down to Asus PC-DL MB, 2 Xeon 2.8's, 4 74GB raptors, Fortron 550w Xeon PSU, YY-W201 Yeong Case. Now I don't know what to get for a video card and 2 gigs of ram. I need to look into that sata raid controller. I am open to suggestions on all the components.

So explain a little more about that 4 drive RAID setup. You can use 3 striped, and if one of those fails the 4th one can take its place automatically? Either way in the mirror RAID, when something fails, how does it fix itself. Does it alert the computer it broke and do something to fix it? Or does it just fix it automatically and tell you a drive broke?

Also any good sites on how to config windows 2000 server for a small network?, like that whole forest/tree thing.

This thread is has been so helpful.
Click to expand...

In a RAID setup, using RAID 1, if a disk fails, the RAID itself fails. You have to break the RAID and toss the borked disk to get your data back, but it's still there on the mirrored drive.

RAID 5 is the same way. You'll have one 2x gig disk, and then 2 1x gig disks (EG, 40 gig and two 20 gig). The two 1x disks will be in RAID 0. The RAID 0 array will be in RAID 1 with the 2x size disk. If any drives fail, you simply break the RAID again and toss the disk that ate it, and replace it. You can 'restore' the RAID using the mirror to whatever part of the array got replaced.
 
If the main function is going to be file serving, are you going to need a lot of bandwidth? PC-DL only has 32bit/33Mhz PCI slots. If you are going with some kind of RAID controller, you might want to consider something with 64bit/66Mhz PCI slots. Maybe the Iwill DH800 if you can wait for its release? It's similar to the PC-DL with 2 64bit/66Mhz PCI slots.
Depending on how much file serving you need, RAID 1 on the PC-DL would probably be enough. But IMHO, if that amount of file serving is the main purpose, why go with SMP? I think a single P4 is more than adequate for serving 16 workstations. You'll hit the bandwidth wall sooner than the processing wall anyway.
 
if you need the system to stay up 24/7 look for a raid card that supports a 'hot ready drive' this will allow you to setup a 3 disk raid 5 setup with 1 disk in a wait state, so that if one of the 3 disk fails, it will automaticaly repair the array with the new disk with out any down time (but you will notice a performance hit as the mirror rebuilds it self).
 
Originally posted by darkamage
If the main function is going to be file serving, are you going to need a lot of bandwidth? PC-DL only has 32bit/33Mhz PCI slots. If you are going with some kind of RAID controller, you might want to consider something with 64bit/66Mhz PCI slots. Maybe the Iwill DH800 if you can wait for its release? It's similar to the PC-DL with 2 64bit/66Mhz PCI slots.
Depending on how much file serving you need, RAID 1 on the PC-DL would probably be enough. But IMHO, if that amount of file serving is the main purpose, why go with SMP? I think a single P4 is more than adequate for serving 16 workstations. You'll hit the bandwidth wall sooner than the processing wall anyway.
Click to expand...

Ding, ding, ding..

Focus your cash on bandwidth from the disk array to the workstations.
Dual homed gigabit nic's in the server. And an intelligent switch that can recognize the load balancing.
64bit/66 mhz pci cards for the nics and raid cards.
A single 3 gig p4 will handle disk requests with no problems at all.

We serve over 400 people with a p3 - 1 ghz.
Lots of autocad and large media files.
as long as you have sufficient network bandwidth, people won't notice or care about the processor speed.
 
Originally posted by mobiux
Ding, ding, ding..

Focus your cash on bandwidth from the disk array to the workstations.
Dual homed gigabit nic's in the server. And an intelligent switch that can recognize the load balancing.
64bit/66 mhz pci cards for the nics and raid cards.
A single 3 gig p4 will handle disk requests with no problems at all.

We serve over 400 people with a p3 - 1 ghz.
Lots of autocad and large media files.
as long as you have sufficient network bandwidth, people won't notice or care about the processor speed.
Click to expand...

I was actually about to say that a PIII 1 ghz would probably be adequate for just a fileserver. :p I know that my LAN is limited by my actual cable and I've never maxed a CPU out with just file transfer stuff. Hell, you might be able to get by on a PII. Just make sure the disks are fast and the ethernet is fast. :p
 
RAID 5 is the same way. You'll have one 2x gig disk, and then 2 1x gig disks (EG, 40 gig and two 20 gig). The two 1x disks will be in RAID 0. The RAID 0 array will be in RAID 1 with the 2x size disk. If any drives fail, you simply break the RAID again and toss the disk that ate it, and replace it. You can 'restore' the RAID using the mirror to whatever part of the array got replaced.
Click to expand...

Um...no. :rolleyes:

In this particular instance (4x 74GB Hard Drives) RAID 5 with a hotspare would work like this.

3 of the drives would actually be in the array. One third of each drive would be assigned as where all of the parity information is stored (so in this config you are essentially losing 1/3rd of your storage space). This parity information is used in the event of a drive failure, at which point (if you have a hot spare) will rebuild the failed drive on the hot spare. You can then pull out the bad drive, with no downtime. If you have no hotspare, you can still operate your server, however you risk data loss due to the extra overhead of trying to reassemble your data as you access it. I can't for the life of me understand why people build servers (which in my mind are built to have no downtime) with a RAID 5 array but fail to include the hot spare drive. This would force you to shutdown until a replacement could be had, otherwise you risk corrupting all data that is accessed. Not Good.

Here is a good place to start for those of you who need to brush up on your RAID levels.

http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/pr...&cat=/Technology/RAID&prodkey=talk_about_raid

Here is the link for the RAID 5 SATA Controller.

http://www.promise.com/product/product_detail_eng.asp?productId=112&familyId=2

one final point, as I stated in my first post (areas which have also been identified by others since)

You should focus on three things. Disk subsystem, RAM, and your network bandwidth
Click to expand...
 
I understand that we are going overboard on the processor power needed. Thats ok though. So lets say my boss wants to still go with a dual xeon config. Right now we are planning to get 4 74gig raptors. I like the idea of using a promise cards for the SATA raid that was mentioned. Also we are going to switch over to Gigabit network speeds. What are some motherboards to look at? And what cards am I looking to buy? Are there better gigabit cards to look at if the motherboard doesn't come with it?

Any thoughts on the IWILL DPL533?
 
the dpl533 is a great board, the pc-dl has onboard gigabite (intel type) and for a good pci (33/32 type) i would go with this one it has a hot swap ready for your needs. and you can even pull out the dead drive without shuting donw the system (it supports hot swap of dead drives :D)
 
I cant decide on the motherboard now. And I read varrying reviews on the different RAID5 cards.
 
As far as RAID cards, I can tell you first hand that I have setup at least 6 servers in the past 2 months with the Promise card all without issue. If you are looking for 64-bit/66MHz RAID 5 SATA Card, Adaptec also makes a nice card. Specs here...

http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/pr...SA&cat=/Technology/Serial+ATA/Serial+ATA+RAID

As far as motherboards...MSI, Asus, Iwill, Gigabyte..hey they make great boards...but for server products you should stick with a company that is known for its' server products. Look at Intel, Tyan, and Supermicro. Almost every server board they make has Gbit LAN on board, and there are plenty of choices as far as boards with 64-bit/66MHz PCI Slots.

http://www.tyan.com/products/html/fam_thunder.html

http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/

http://www.intel.com/products/server/motherbd/index.htm?iid=ipp_home+server_motherbds&

I don't care who you are, if you build servers for business then you are using the manufacturer's listed above.
 
hardwarephreak

you bring up quite a few good points, but I would not hesitated to use a Asus for a small server, and I run/or setup, 25 asus dual xeons mb, from the ServerWorks chipsets and all of the Intel chip sets board. One PU-DLS has been up running win2k adv server (main DC with AD for 200 users) and it host 2 or 3 database files and is folding 24/7 with a >99% uptime for the past 18 months. While I have built more gigabyte servers then asus servers, I have no problems offering them the asus option.
 
For the intel, tyan and supermicro boards what are some lower priced good ones to look at? Ones that I can use the full bandwidth of the gigabit lan and promise sata card.
I am looking right now at the Supermicro X5DAL-TG2

Also I plan to install the swiftech heatsink and panaflo fans.
 
dagamore..

What I was trying to say is that there are several motherboard manufacturers out there that are making good quality and reliable boards...Asus being one of them. I would just think it better to purchase from a manufacturer that not only builds good quality and reliable boards, but also from a company whose bread and butter is server products. Not that Tyan, Supermicro, (and Intel) don't make desktop boards, it's just that where they focus almost all of thier R&D and monies is towards building a better server platform. Asus is an extrememly large company, dwarfing Tyan. But when AMD has released its' server chips, who did it pick, little Tyan. Why, because servers is what they know, and it is what they focus on. Supermicro...heck try and find something that isn't server related on thier website. They have been building server boards since the HX chipset and dual 133 Pentiums. They are also usually first to market with an Intel/Serverworks based solution. You probably can't go wrong with any choice, but Supermicro and Tyan are also setup to support mission critical problems, have you ever tried to get a FAST response from MSI, Asus, Abit, Gigabyte...it just aint gonna happen.

travanx...

Here is a good board from Tyan...Dual Gbit Lan, PCI-X (66/100/133Mhz), Onboard ATI graphics...

http://www.tyan.com/products/html/tigeri7501s.html


Here is a another good motherboard, but from Supermicro, Dual LAN (only ones GBit) More PCI slots than the Tyan, onboard ATI

http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/E7501/X5DPL-iGM.cfm

I don't know if expansion is an option, but you may want to look at the above Supermicro board instead of the X5DPR-TG2+, just based on the fact that the X5DPR-TG2+ only has two slots.
 
I understand exactly what you are saying about getting a board by a company that mainly deals in the server boards. Let me go check those out.

I think we are going to end up getting 5 74gb Raptor drives and either use that promise controller or the Raidcore one. Any opinions on choosing between those two for RAID 5?

Also any cases to check out? I am now not sure if I should go with the gigacase yeong YY-W201 or go with a more traditional case that has better spots for cooling fans. I like the idea of putting a quiet 120mm fan on the front and the back. Instead of the YY-W201 case I get 120 on the back and 2 60mm on the front. A silent fan over the hard drives would be good too.

This week has been a great learning experience.
 
That Raidcore is a sweet card...PCI-X(133)..very nice..one thing I noticed though at thier site is that they were just purchased by Broadcom, and they only have a small distributrion network in North America. You may want to give them a call and see how easy it is to get ahold of someone in case you have a question or a support issue.

Another company with highend SATA controllers is 3Ware. They have been around in that market segment for quite sometime, here is a page discussing thier escalade 9000 series controllers.

http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata9000.asp
(go to the data sheet link in the top right corner of the page)

As far as cases, you want good cooling for those 10,000RPM drives, with as many as you are planning on getting heat will be a real issue. Another factor is the majority of dual Xeon boards utilize EATX (extended) which can take up a lot of internal real estate, so much so, that even some so called server towers can't fit them (properly).

I recommend tower over rack unless you go with a rack case with ample drive bays, which is costly and not really worth it in my opinion. SuperMicro and Intel make some great chasis. I can't count the number of servers I have built using the SC760-400 from Supermicro. I think they have upgraded their model line to the SC762-420. These have 10 case fans, 4 of which blow directly onto where you would mount your drives (5.25 bays). Here is a link to some places that sell them:

http://pcmag.shopping.com/xPF-SuperMicro_SC760_P4_CSE_048_760P4_400W

I think I have an extra one at one of my businesses. It has all the fans and accessories, I'll sell it for $90 plus ship (which would be probably around $29), I think on the above link they sell for $149 plus ship.

As for Intel cases, they are all rackmountable, but also can double as towers. They are extremely convenient to use if you go with thier boards because they flat out tell you the case is compatible with so-and-so board, or designed for so-and-so board. They are also very nice cases, however they are also quite pricey.

http://www.intel.com/design/servers...ex.htm?iid=ipp_srvr_srvrchassis+high2_sc5200&

http://www.intel.com/design/servers/sc5250-e/index.htm?iid=ipp_srvr_srvrchassis+high1_entry_servr&
 
One quick note, silent fans over the hard drives won't be as much of an issue as you think, primarily because with the exception of some Deltas and Tornados those hard drives are going to be louder than the fans.
 
So here is the final breakdown of what I am going to get. Just wanted to thank everyone for helping me out in this thread.

CPU
2 Pentium Xeon 2.8
MOTHERBOARD
Supermicro X5DAL-TG2 newegg.com
CASE
Supermicro CSE-733T-450 newegg.com
RAM
Corsair XMS 1GBx2 newegg.com
HARD DRIVE
Western Digital 5 x 74GB Raptor newegg.com
RAID CONTROLLER
RAIDCORE RC4852 pcmall.com
DVD BURNER
Pioneer 8X 107 newegg.com
FLOPPY
MITSUMI 3.5" BLACK newegg.com
VIDEO CARD
???? newegg.com
COOLING
heatsink 2 SWIFTECH MCX603-VSR2 frozencpu.com
case fan PABST 3412N/2GL Silicon Acoustics
case fan PABST 4412F/2GL Silicon Acoustics
 
Do you guys think its ok to run the whole computer off of those RAID5 drives?
 
just as an update I put it all together and there were absolutely no problems. Got windows 2000 server running on the RAID5 SATA Raptors. Great system and thanks for all the help in this thread.
 
Yeah I forgot to bring my camera. I also wanted to get a shot of the fedex guy delivering most of the parts for the 11 pc's I am building. Seeing 10 9800 pro 256mb cards was pretty nice along with 10 antec sonata cases. Of course the motherload was one box filled with all the server parts. 2x1GB of corsair platinum heat spreader ram and all those raptor drives.

Gotta bring my camera tomorrow!

I am working on a slipstreamed windows XP disc right now and am testing it out in virtual pc. Seems to be working so far.
 
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