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Does DICE know anything about real firearms?

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Bop

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I'm beginning to think that DICE has never held, fired or read any detailed info about the guns they put in their game. For example:

The L96A1: Look at the way he is holding the sniper rifle, if you were to hold it like that it would hurt your arm and make aiming impossible. I have a replica L96A1, you are supposed to put your thumb in the hole in the stock.

P90: In RL this gun has a very high ROF and its rounds are capable of penetrating armor. In the game it has the lowest ROF of all the SMGs and it does less damage than a 9mm pistol.

G3: This gun is 1 meter long and used 7.62mm rounds, it is extremely accurate but its large rounds give it quite a punch(so more recoil). So what does DICE do? They give it the least accuracy of all the assault rifles and the least deviation when going full auto. Just the exact opposite of what the gun is supposed to mimmick.

The G36 series: I have a replica of a G36C w/ the vertical grip and a red dot sight and for long range shooting the vertical grip makes aiming harder, it is meant for CQB yet the G36 is one of the most accurate guns in the game. There is also no three round burst selector on the real gun that I am aware of.

I know DICE is going for weapon balance here, but why the hell give the guns properties opposite the real ones? Why not just put in a different gun that has similar properties? Its apparrent the devs never really even held the guns, so I wonder if they bothered looking up the specs on them. :rolleyes:
 
Agreed with you here. Although I haven't played BF2 (I assume that's the game you are refrencing), nor do I own firearms, you have a good point. It's one thing to balance the game mechanisms (which IMO, is more important than realism), but to completely misrepresent what you're mimicking is ridiculous. If you don't want a gun to be good at sniping, don't model it after a gun that is used for that in real life.
 
Since when has BF2 EVER been realistic? I mean, you can jump off a 2 story building and deploy a parachute... :rolleyes:
 
fat_al said:
Since when has BF2 EVER been realistic? I mean, you can jump off a 2 story building and deploy a parachute... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
LOL, exactly....realism isn't quite what they were going for :)
 
Bop said:
I'm beginning to think that DICE has never held, fired or read any detailed info about the guns they put in their game. For example:

The L96A1: Look at the way he is holding the sniper rifle, if you were to hold it like that it would hurt your arm and make aiming impossible. I have a replica L96A1, you are supposed to put your thumb in the hole in the stock.

P90: In RL this gun has a very high ROF and its rounds are capable of penetrating armor. In the game it has the lowest ROF of all the SMGs and it does less damage than a 9mm pistol.

G3: This gun is 1 meter long and used 7.62mm rounds, it is extremely accurate but its large rounds give it quite a punch(so more recoil). So what does DICE do? They give it the least accuracy of all the assault rifles and the least deviation when going full auto. Just the exact opposite of what the gun is supposed to mimmick.

The G36 series: I have a replica of a G36C w/ the vertical grip and a red dot sight and for long range shooting the vertical grip makes aiming harder, it is meant for CQB yet the G36 is one of the most accurate guns in the game. There is also no three round burst selector on the real gun that I am aware of.

I know DICE is going for weapon balance here, but why the hell give the guns properties opposite the real ones? Why not just put in a different gun that has similar properties? Its apparrent the devs never really even held the guns, so I wonder if they bothered looking up the specs on them. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Great, another keyboard commando. Wow, I am so impressed. Gosh you know so much about firearms. But I guess with all that experience you have with replica firearms and airsoft you would have to be a real expert. :rolleyes:

I suppose next you'll link to some internet site that is also written by another keyboard commando which everybody else links to in order to show how much they know. Whoopee.

Why don't you try impressing people in another manner?
 
Wow Replicant1911, overreacting a little bit? I'm not trying to impress anyone. Take a deep breath and calm down...

I'm just putting out some points seeing as DICE is going completely against what they are mimicking. The G3 being the biggest example. Of course its a game, it takes like 5 rounds just to put a man down, if I was complaing about that I would understand the harsh reaction.

I'm not talking about realism here, just about the general properties of how they screwed up so bad when it came to mimmicking the guns.

P.S. I also own a real gun, a Kar98 carbine (G33/40). Oh well, I guess that still makes me a total "keyboard commando".
 
Replicant1911 said:
Great, another keyboard commando. Wow, I am so impressed. Gosh you know so much about firearms. But I guess with all that experience you have with replica firearms and airsoft you would have to be a real expert. :rolleyes:

I suppose next you'll link to some internet site that is also written by another keyboard commando which everybody else links to in order to show how much they know. Whoopee.

Why don't you try impressing people in another manner?
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His point was that none of the weapons in this so-called "realistic" game are parallel to their real-life counterparts, and I agree 100%. He's not trying to be a "keyboard commmando."

Really though, he has brought up a good point. Games today strive towards realism and in an attempt to create "fairness" they have completely lost their goal of realism.

Then again, if it were 100% realistic the game would be no fun because US would always win ;)
 
BF2 is an arcade game. Not allt he weapons are going to be drop dead up to spec of their real counter part.

7.62 is a .308 Winchester equivelant. So the G3 having a huge recoil isn't exaclty true, the M16 used to fire a 7.62 round during its initial release, as did the M249 SAW. Mid Vietnam they changed it to a 5.56 NATO round because the UN felt the 7.62mm round was too "in-humane" due to the entry and exit wounds produced by it. .308 Winchester is still being used by civilians. Theres nothing that special about the .308 Winchester. Teh G3 is not a sniper rifle. Also on a side note teh H&K MP-5 is a modified G3 which fires 9mm rounds.

P90 has a cyclictic rate of fire of 700 rounds per minute. The rounds are designed for light armor. Not heavy.

The G36 fires a 5.56 Nato round. Its also select fire. Which means it can fire full auto, 2 round burst, single round, or three round burst. Its modular which means there are different upgrades to get teh different types of firing modes. Defeault is single shot, 2 round burst and full auto.

My uncle fought in Vietnam, he tends to keep up on this stuff. Not to mention he has a multitude of weapons at his house. Not to mention many of my friends own a lot of different fire arms from AK-47's to 1911M1A1 Colt 45's and combat shotguns.
 
Replicant1911 said:
Great, another keyboard commando. Wow, I am so impressed. Gosh you know so much about firearms. But I guess with all that experience you have with replica firearms and airsoft you would have to be a real expert. :rolleyes:

I suppose next you'll link to some internet site that is also written by another keyboard commando which everybody else links to in order to show how much they know. Whoopee.

Why don't you try impressing people in another manner?
Click to expand...
QFT

Though, you could say the same thing to yourself, there.
 
I watched a movie with a Desert Eagle in it awhile ago, and the guy shoots eight rounds with it. Or is that clips? Well, bullets. And we all know from Counter-Strike that it only has 7 bullets in a round. Of clips. I stopped the movie right then, then took it back to Blockbuster and screamed at the cashier, demanding my money back.

Are you really so distracted by this that you can no longer enjoy the game? Are there forums of car enthusiasts where people do nothing but complain about car chase scenes in movies where a car does something it obviously shouldn't be able to? It's cool to have a hobby and all, but I figured the point of hobbies was more to have something to enjoy in your spare time, rather than to have something to completely obsess over and then condescend towards everybody who knows less, which likely includes any normal person. (hahaha...I just realized the parallel to most computer hardware site video card forums. zing)

Oh, and I can't say as I ever recall BF2 being promoted for its hyper-realism, or anything along those lines.
 
Its just like how guns in real life act like their cs counterparts.. i mean you know.. i can shoot my gun and itll be an instant laser that damages another guy a half a mile away. Then when i throw grenades itll just do about enough damage to make you run slower but youll be fine in about.. 2 seconds. :D
 
I would certainly like to think everyone is mature enough to have this convo. Please don't prove me wrong.
 
Right, lets keep this civil.

I started this discussion as it just seemed DICE didn't even have a clue what they were basing their guns on. Like as in they just saw a picture of it and put it in the game not knowning anything about it.

BF2 is not an arcade game, nor a realistic shooter. It is meant to be a meld of both but seeing as there are no jump pads or power-ups and is based on real armies, guns, and equipment I'd say its more towards the realistic aspect.

If they are trying to make it pseudo-realistic they should at least make the properties of the guns they are trying to copy have some relevance to its real world counterpart. If not then why didn't they just pick another gun or create their own firearm; or do they just lack creativity?

And for the L96, what they did was just ignorance. I mean if your going to put a gun in the game don't you think the developers should at the very minimum hold it? I know if I was a developer I would at least hire a specialist to come in, like with what they did for CoD 2.
 
Rich Tate said:
I would certainly like to think everyone is mature enough to have this convo. Please don't prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

Aren't you giving us a bit too much credit there? They just released a study saying that "tone" of emails is lost on greater than 80% of people, in clinical research, suggesting that there's almost NO WAY that people will get what you mean :)

I should explain further, when I say that it's lost on greater than 80% they "misunderstood" the "tone" of the email.
 
I think we need an ultra realistic FPS game... so when you get shot, no matter where, you fall down and start screaming like a little girl while putting pressure on your wound. Instead of having to wait until the board's over from being killed, you can nurse your wound as tears stream down your face. That would be awesome! :)

Or better yet, let's have a civil war FPS where everyone gets one shot, then you have to run behind a tree, pack in your powder, load up some shot, replace your cap and then when you pull the trigger, you have to balance the 40 lb musket for 2-3 seconds before it fires. Total Badass! :D
 
There we go, add some more realism to games. How about the Medic with his shock paddles, zaps you and due to this your whole system gets fried :) Then we don't have to worry about complaints about "damn Medic revived me in the middle of a firefight." :)
 
MasterShredder said:
Or better yet, let's have a civil war FPS where everyone gets one shot, then you have to run behind a tree, pack in your powder, load up some shot, replace your cap and then when you pull the trigger, you have to balance the 40 lb musket for 2-3 seconds before it fires. Total Badass! :D
Click to expand...

I remember playing a HL mod like this... yeah it was pretty bad.
 
finalgt said:
I watched a movie with a Desert Eagle in it awhile ago, and the guy shoots eight rounds with it. Or is that clips? Well, bullets. And we all know from Counter-Strike that it only has 7 bullets in a round. Of clips. I stopped the movie right then, then took it back to Blockbuster and screamed at the cashier, demanding my money back.

Are you really so distracted by this that you can no longer enjoy the game? Are there forums of car enthusiasts where people do nothing but complain about car chase scenes in movies where a car does something it obviously shouldn't be able to? It's cool to have a hobby and all, but I figured the point of hobbies was more to have something to enjoy in your spare time, rather than to have something to completely obsess over and then condescend towards everybody who knows less, which likely includes any normal person. (hahaha...I just realized the parallel to most computer hardware site video card forums. zing)

Oh, and I can't say as I ever recall BF2 being promoted for its hyper-realism, or anything along those lines.
Click to expand...

The .50 AE version of the Desert eagle holds 7 rounds, the .44 mag version holds 8 And the .357 magnum version holds 9 rounds of ammo.
 
The elements like reviving are there to keep the player in the game and such. Things like that are good for a game like BF2. This is a discusion based solely on the firearms of BF2. I'm sure just about all BF2 players have had moments where you were lying prone, shooting some guy 20 times in single shot and all the bullets went around the target and he jumps, spins and land a round in your face at 500 yards while spraying and praying.

And I happened to like that Revolutionary war mod for HL, when you fired your shot you could do a bayonet charge :)
 
MasterShredder said:
I think we need an ultra realistic FPS game... so when you get shot, no matter where, you fall down and start screaming like a little girl while putting pressure on your wound. Instead of having to wait until the board's over from being killed, you can nurse your wound as tears stream down your face. That would be awesome! :)

Or better yet, let's have a civil war FPS where everyone gets one shot, then you have to run behind a tree, pack in your powder, load up some shot, replace your cap and then when you pull the trigger, you have to balance the 40 lb musket for 2-3 seconds before it fires. Total Badass! :D
Click to expand...

The civil war game has been done.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/godsgenerals/review.html

Read the review, its a total riot.

As for the original post, I agree. I can imagine for someone with a little knowledge issues like this could be VERY distracting.
 
Moose777 said:
BF2 is an arcade game. Not allt he weapons are going to be drop dead up to spec of their real counter part.

7.62 is a .308 Winchester equivelant. So the G3 having a huge recoil isn't exaclty true, the M16 used to fire a 7.62 round during its initial release, as did the M249 SAW. Mid Vietnam they changed it to a 5.56 NATO round because the UN felt the 7.62mm round was too "in-humane" due to the entry and exit wounds produced by it. .308 Winchester is still being used by civilians. Theres nothing that special about the .308 Winchester. Teh G3 is not a sniper rifle. Also on a side note teh H&K MP-5 is a modified G3 which fires 9mm rounds.

P90 has a cyclictic rate of fire of 700 rounds per minute. The rounds are designed for light armor. Not heavy.
Click to expand...

Wow...Speechless.

7.62 = 30 caliber. It depends on the other half, if it's x54R its a modin nagant round. If it's x51 its the nato .30 caliber round, which is similiar to .308 but has its differences. If it's x39 its the AK round. The m16 and m249 were never 7.62x51. They have always been 5.56x45 (Aka .223 but like 7.62x51 and .308, they have their differences) As the army was looking for a new .22 caliber round back in the 60's. The Un has never declared a .308 round inhumane, only bullet types other than FMJ. The mp5 Is NOT a modified g3, it uses the roller locking system like a g3, but it is not a g3 based weapon. H&K just happens to like the roller locking system. Theres alot special about a .308 winchester. It offers better baricade penetration than a .223 because of heavier bullet weight, ability to reach out around 1000 yards, etc that you'd expect from a larger caliber.

The p90 cyclic rate is 900 RPM. The AP ammo is designed for penetration of light armor as you mentioned.
 
Imagine a racing game where the Grand Am's were the fastest and the Lamborghinis, Ferrarris and Porches were slow. Wouldn't anyone be bothered by that?

It's the same thing here, except not many people have a knowledge of firearms. I think most everyone knowns a Lamborghini is fast.

Now what would be great is if everyone went out and bought a Grand Am so they could have a fast car
tongue.gif
 
finalgt said:
I watched a movie with a Desert Eagle in it awhile ago, and the guy shoots eight rounds with it.
Click to expand...

It can hold eight rounds, 7 in the clip + 1 in the chamber. The clip can only hold a maximum of 7 though.
 
droppedrngr said:
Wow...Speechless.

7.62 = 30 caliber. It depends on the other half, if it's x54R its a modin nagant round. If it's x51 its the nato .30 caliber round, which is similiar to .308 but has its differences. If it's x39 its the AK round. The m16 and m249 were never 7.62x51. They have always been 5.56x45 (Aka .223 but like 7.62x51 and .308, they have their differences) As the army was looking for a new .22 caliber round back in the 60's. The Un has never declared a .308 round inhumane, only bullet types other than FMJ. The mp5 Is NOT a modified g3, it uses the roller locking system like a g3, but it is not a g3 based weapon. H&K just happens to like the roller locking system. Theres alot special about a .308 winchester. It offers better baricade penetration than a .223 because of heavier bullet weight, ability to reach out around 1000 yards, etc that you'd expect from a larger caliber.

The p90 cyclic rate is 900 RPM. The AP ammo is designed for penetration of light armor as you mentioned.
Click to expand...

Although that information is nice to know, it is kinda off topic.

Without getting into the specifics of firearms, I think DICE should just have their guns mimmick their real world counterparts. The P90 should have a higher ROF and deal more damage, the G3 should be more accurate/deal slightly more damage and have greater recoil. The G36C should be slightly less accurate and the E version should have semi/full and the scope. Nothing very specific, just "generally" more like the original gun.

I mean, if I were someone who worked at one of these firerarms companies I would feel insulted. Don't they have to license the gun's name to use it in a game? Just as car companies get ticked off when their cars damage isn't properly portrayed(thats one reason why car damage isnt in many games) you'd think some gun companies would feel the same, but they probably don't realise it yet.
 
finalgt said:
I watched a movie with a Desert Eagle in it awhile ago, and the guy shoots eight rounds with it. Or is that clips? Well, bullets. And we all know from Counter-Strike that it only has 7 bullets in a round. Of clips. I stopped the movie right then, then took it back to Blockbuster and screamed at the cashier, demanding my money back.
Click to expand...
The Desert Eagle comes in 7, 8, or 9 round capacity. And has a magazine. Not a clip.

A magazine is self-feeding. A clip is not. A magazine has a carrier and a spring that guides the carrier. A clip merely holds bullets.

An M1 Garand uses a clip.
 
Moose777 said:
The Desert Eagle comes in 7, 8, or 9 round capacity. And has a magazine. Not a clip.

A magazine is self-feeding. A clip is not. A magazine has a carrier and a spring that guides the carrier. A clip merely holds bullets.

An M1 Garand uses a clip.
Click to expand...

The capacity is influenced by Caliber. as i mentioned before.
 
droppedrngr said:
Wow...Speechless.

7.62 = 30 caliber. It depends on the other half, if it's x54R its a modin nagant round. If it's x51 its the nato .30 caliber round, which is similiar to .308 but has its differences. If it's x39 its the AK round. The m16 and m249 were never 7.62x51. They have always been 5.56x45 (Aka .223 but like 7.62x51 and .308, they have their differences) As the army was looking for a new .22 caliber round back in the 60's. The Un has never declared a .308 round inhumane, only bullet types other than FMJ. The mp5 Is NOT a modified g3, it uses the roller locking system like a g3, but it is not a g3 based weapon. H&K just happens to like the roller locking system. Theres alot special about a .308 winchester. It offers better baricade penetration than a .223 because of heavier bullet weight, ability to reach out around 1000 yards, etc that you'd expect from a larger caliber.

The p90 cyclic rate is 900 RPM. The AP ammo is designed for penetration of light armor as you mentioned.
Click to expand...

In 1964 the M16 was in fact 7.62x51. It remained 7.62 up until 1967 when it was deemed that the 7.62's powder caused heavy fouling and jams then it was changed over to the 5.56 NATO. I was off on the UN "in-humane" thing but I'm sure they may have had complaints along those lines.

So, if it were never a 7.62 weapon you might want to go ahead and tell all the vets who were issued the weapon prior to 1967 that the gun they fired in the wetlands of Vietnam that it never existed. I can give you the number to my uncle, I'm sure he'll be thrilled to know that the M16 didn't exist in a 7.62 format.

As for the SAW, no it has never been 7.62 I was confused with teh M60 which was.

And if you had actually read I said the 5.56 used in the weapon is the .308 EQUIVELANT I didn't say it was the same. Just said it was comprable to the Winchester.

And sorry on the RPM of the P90 I was mistaken.
 
Moose777 said:
In 1964 the M16 was in fact 7.62x51. It remained 7.62 up until 1967 when it was deemed that the 7.62's powder caused heavy fouling and jams then it was changed over to the 5.56 NATO. I was off on the UN "in-humane" thing but I'm sure they may have had complaints along those lines.

So, if it were never a 7.62 weapon you might want to go ahead and tell all the vets who were issued the weapon prior to 1967 that the gun they fired in the wetlands of Vietnam that it never existed. I can give you the number to my uncle, I'm sure he'll be thrilled to know that the M17 didn't exist in a 7.62 format.

As for the SAW, no it has never been 7.62 I was confused with teh M60 which was.

And if you had actually read I said the 5.56 used in the weapon is the .308 EQUIVELANT I didn't say it was the same. Just said it was comprable to the Winchester.
Click to expand...

You may be confuseing your M series weapons. The M14 was around for a few years before the m16 came along. It was 7.62x51 caliber. Based off the a modified garand action. Mr stoners creation was and always has been .223 Except for the AR-10.

The cheap powder that the army used AND them telling troops that the rifle never needed cleaning was a big factor in the m16 unreliability. the m16 needed Ball powder to run its best, and regular cleaning.

5.56 is not equivelant to .308. 7.62x51 is. 5.56x45 is a .223 equivelant.

BTW, this thread makes us giggle in the firearms forum.

Also, CS has just as bad a firearms knowledge as BF2 does.
 
droppedrngr said:
The capacity is influenced by Caliber. as i mentioned before.
Click to expand...
Correct it comes in calibers of .41, .44 and .50.

And to the person who said its magazine can hold 7 in the mag 1 in the tube is wrong. How do you think that one in the tube gets there? Its not manually loaded through the breach.
 
My $.02:

BF2 (and BF1942 before it) are not terribly realistic when it comes to nitty gritty details. When faced with balance/gameplay vs. realism, balance and gameplay always win out. If you want a really realistic shooter I would look to the mods that will soon be arriving. Many of them are based around realism such as Point of Existence 2 (modern) and Forgotten Hope 2 (WW2). Both were excellent in previous incarnations and I imagine they will continue to be so in the future.
 
Moose777 said:
Correct it comes in calibers of .41, .44 and .50.

And to the person who said its magazine can hold 7 in the mag 1 in the tube is wrong. How do you think that one in the tube gets there? Its not manually loaded through the breach.
Click to expand...

Depends on the model, the older model (Mk.7) was .357 and .41 and .44 mag. The new model Mark XIX, is chambered for .357,.44,and .50AE, you could also have gotten a .440 corbon barrel for it for a short time.
 
droppedrngr said:
You may be confuseing your M series weapons. The M14 was around for a few years before the m16 came along. It was 7.62x51 caliber. Based off the a modified garand action. Mr stoners creation was and always has been .223 Except for the AR-10.

The cheap powder that the army used AND them telling troops that the rifle never needed cleaning was a big factor in the m16 unreliability. the m16 needed Ball powder to run its best, and regular cleaning.

5.56 is not equivelant to .308. 7.62x51 is. 5.56x45 is a .223 equivelant.

BTW, this thread makes us giggle in the firearms forum.

Also, CS has just as bad a firearms knowledge as BF2 does.
Click to expand...
Nope, I'm not confused. I'm well aware of what the M14 is, my father used it during Vietnam. My uncle fired the M16 and the M60 during Vietnam and he has confirmed that prior to 1967 the M16 fired a 7.62x51 round. After 1967 they switched to the 5.56 NATO and it still remains 5.56 to this day. The M16's initial release was the 7.62.

As far as I understand though the M16 did replace the M14 somewhere around the early 1960's so its most likely some sort of a grey area where some M16's shipped in the 5.56 configuration and some did not. Who knows. But all I know is that I'm going to believe a man who has killed with the weapon in question.

As far as the .308 thing, it doesn't matter. I'm not good with my decimal conversions so whatever, I'll agree there.

The M16 and the AR 10 are completely different weapons too. Doesn't the AR10 use a 2.43 round?
 
finalgt said:
lol. Thanks for inadvertently proving my point, guys. :)
Click to expand...

I dont care, i dont even play BF2. but i have played it a few times anyway. I play CS alot more, and it still gets on my nerves how slow the animations are.
 
droppedrngr said:
Depends on the model, the older model (Mk.7) was .357 and .41 and .44 mag. The new model Mark XIX, is chambered for .357,.44,and .50AE, you could also have gotten a .440 corbon barrel for it for a short time.
Click to expand...
True.

Plus now theres the Magnum 500 version of it too which I don't know too much about. All I know is that it is a very heavy weapon that fires very large rounds.
 
Moose777 said:
Nope, I'm not confused. I'm well aware of what the M14 is, my father used it during Vietnam. My uncle fired the M16 and the M60 during Vietnam and he has confirmed that prior to 1967 the M16 fired a 7.62x51 round. After 1967 they switched to the 5.56 NATO and it still remains 5.56 to this day. The M16's initial release was the 7.62.

As far as I understand though the M16 did replace the M14 somewhere around the early 1960's so its most likely some sort of a grey area where some M16's shipped in the 5.56 configuration and some did not. Who knows. But all I know is that I'm going to believe a man who has killed with the weapon in question.

As far as the .308 thing, it doesn't matter. I'm not good with my decimal conversions so whatever, I'll agree there.

The M16 and the AR 10 are completely different weapons too. Doesn't the AR10 use a 2.43 round?
Click to expand...

Well, he's wrong sir. the m16 has never fired a 7.62x51. First of all, its too small. If you have read the history of it, it was never chambered for that round. the AR-10 is only different than the m16 because. 1. Its not FA. 2. Its chambered for 7.62x51.
Let me pull up the history on it.
 
You guys know there is a firearms forum, right
rolleyes.gif


For anyone who doesn't want to read the thread, here's a summary:

OP: Guns in BF2 should be close to their RL counterparts
Replies: OMG NO THEY SHOULDN'T
Random Person: Stop being a keyboard commando
*Post lots of stats of RL firearms*

So uhhh... are you guys against realistic guns in games? If so... why are you talking about real guns?
 
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