Does "Bass Redirection" *work* with the Audigy 2?

[dderidex]

Just recently re-wired my speakers to actually set up a real, live, surround-sound configuration (rather than having the 'rears' at the corners of my desk....almost exactly 90 degrees off the front), but had not finished with the rear sat stands yet.

So, I simply tested the speakers with the THX applet in the Audigy 2 control panel - still in 5.1 mode - with just the front 3 speakers and sub. Oddly, when it gets to the REAR speakers, I hear clear as day from the sub (although muffled - 'tis a sub, after all) "Right Surround", "Left Surround". I'd probably hear the same from the front speakers if they were not plugged in, either - but, they were, so the sound from the sat obviously overpowers the sound from the sub.

Uhhhh....'okay', thinks I, so I hop over to the Audigy's speaker setup and check the box for "bass redirection" (previous unchecked). Try again. No difference. Hrm...well, the default cutoff was 100hz, so.....dragged it ALL the way down to the bottom. Still....no difference.

Any ideas?

 

[dderidex]

Nobody?

 

[BBA]

It works but the sub level is very low, you need a dedicated sub with the special break out cable for the front center/sub/rear center jack. Using a standard stereo 1/8 mini style plug doesnt work for sub out.

I have no idea why the set the bass level so low, pisses me off too.

 

[dderidex]

It works but the sub level is very low, you need a dedicated sub with the special break out cable for the front center/sub/rear center jack. Using a standard stereo 1/8 mini style plug doesnt work for sub out.

I have no idea why the set the bass level so low, pisses me off too.

*scratches head*

I'm not sure I follow. Using Klipsch Promedia 5.1 Ultra setup, not a seperate sub entirely.

 

[BBA]

To use the dedicated Audigy sub output, you need a sub connection with this type of pin configuration:

If you use the standard Klipsch cable, which only has a stereo connector for the center/sub, it doesnt work very well.

 

[BBA]

After reading your whole post again, it sounds like you may also have the cables plugged into the wrong jacks.

You should try repositioning the connections again just to be sure, because the rear speakers are connected through a standard stereo 1/8 jack on the sound card.

 

[dderidex]

After reading your whole post again, it sounds like you may also have the cables plugged into the wrong jacks.

You should try repositioning the connections again just to be sure, because the rear speakers are connected through a standard stereo 1/8 jack on the sound card.

LOL - definitely have them plugged in properly.

Just finished wiring the rears up today, actually, and everything tests out fine. If I unplug any of the speakers, though, I can still hear that speaker's test voice through the sub.

Definitely an interesting diagram you have, there. Had no idea the Audigy jacks were anything other than a simply 3-pole 1/8" jack. But I'm not sure what it gets me - the sub doesn't have a seperate channel for the sub alone - there are only three connectors TO it, front stereo, rear stereo, and center/sub.

 

[BBA]

Definitely an interesting diagram you have, there. Had no idea the Audigy jacks were anything other than a simply 3-pole 1/8" jack. But I'm not sure what it gets me - the sub doesn't have a seperate channel for the sub alone - there are only three connectors TO it, front stereo, rear stereo, and center/sub.

I got the diagram from the Creative Labs faq section on the Audigy series cards, thats how they do 6.1 and 7.1 with only three jacks.

BTW: I was wrong about the rear speaker connections jack...The Audigy 2ZS actually does three pole as well on the rear jack for a total of:

2 speakers for front jack, 3 speakers for rear jack, 2 speakers and sub for rear jack.

 

[dderidex]

Interesting.

However, again, it does me no good, as the Klipsch Promedia 5.1 Ultra sub isn't on its own line, I *think* it gets its signal from the 'center/sub' line. (Although I wouldn't bet any amount of money on that - posts on the Klipsch forums have it in my head that maybe the Klipsch set has its own internal crossover to the sub, and the sub pretty much ignores the "sub" line! Kinda frightening if true, but, there ya go!)

 

[thomase]

If you get sub in music and games (no dedicated sub channel) WITHOUT using the bass redirection on the soundcard, that pretty much proves that the Klipsch speakers have an internal crossover.

 

[BBA]

Yes, I believe the Klipsch has an internal crossover, as do the CL, Logitech and most other x.1 computer speaker systems. The reason being they are designed to sound 'good' no matter the listening mode...and that means to prevent returns when Joe Schmo up sales a set of 5.1's to grandpa who just wants granny to be able to hear the instant messenger beeps on her 486 with an ISA sound card, they still need to have some bass reproduction (other than 2 channels of 3" one way sattellite drivers most typical of PC speakers.)

I have almost come to the point of unsoldering the bass/center f/center r jack from my 6.1 amplifier card (since it came with the correct 4 contact cable set and jack straight from CL) to allow resoldering in a way that manually isolates the sub channel to a new RCA jack to connect a real dedicated (home type) powered subwoofer. That would pretty much get the best of both worlds for me.

 

[Slider19]

Just curious, why exactly is it a problem that you hear sound from the sub? Isn't that what they're supposed to do?

 

[BBA]

It's because he is probably wanting a true 5.1 seperation, in which the bass channel is dedicated to the bass output.

Of course with that, he would need to make use of the bass redirection to get normal sound in the sattellite channels to sound balanced bass wise. It's just that the computer design sattellites do not produce full range sound with deep bass so some of their content must come through the subwoofer, which really makes computer subwoofers into midbass units instead.

 

[dderidex]

It's because he is probably wanting a true 5.1 seperation, in which the bass channel is dedicated to the bass output.

That is basically the goal, yup.

Makes me think of putting together a component system, now....

 

[Slider19]

Very interesting, never thought about it this way. Do any computer speaker solutions offer true 5.1 sound with separate bass channel?

 

[Donnie27]

LOL - definitely have them plugged in properly.

Just finished wiring the rears up today, actually, and everything tests out fine. If I unplug any of the speakers, though, I can still hear that speaker's test voice through the sub.

Definitely an interesting diagram you have, there. Had no idea the Audigy jacks were anything other than a simply 3-pole 1/8" jack. But I'm not sure what it gets me - the sub doesn't have a seperate channel for the sub alone - there are only three connectors TO it, front stereo, rear stereo, and center/sub.

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1028105908&postcount=170

Look at the date?

Donnie27

 

[BBA]

Thats why a was thinking a dedicated sub with an adjustable gain would work since the CL sub out level is set pretty low (for some reason I have no idea why.)

 

[Donnie27]

Thats why a was thinking a dedicated sub with an adjustable gain would work since the CL sub out level is set pretty low (for some reason I have no idea why.)

Yes, the Sub's volume level is low but it was Creative of trying to save small sats. They didn't want these tiny speakers trying to reproduce bass. The Logitech 560Z’s are legendary with the Audigy 2. There are ZERO bass problems with Creative's speakers. The Cutoff frequency has more to do with the sats, not the Sub, only the Volume on the Sub changes.

Bassmanagement is wrong-headed because it assumes most folks are using those same tiny sats that cannot play any bass at all. Just about all computer speakers are made this way. They didn't see (didn't have any idea or under estimated) folks connecting their computers to receivers and etc.. I’d take a nice small but powerful set of bookshelf speakers over a set of satellites any day. So changing the cutoff freq to between 110 and 130 should keep enough mid range sound in the sats and bring up the volume level of the Sub.

Bassmanagement/Redirection is alive and well on X-Fi as well. Set the sats to large and you’ll see the Sub’s *volume Level decrease to almost nothing. It’s more advanced in that you have a 3-step setting. There’s SMALL or LARGE speaker selection for Center, Front and Rear just like many receivers. Set all of these to Large and you get very little to no VOLUME from the Sub. Set all of these to “Small” (those tiny sats I talked about above) and you get almost too much bass. You can hear the Sub loose strength as each setting is changed from small to large for example. I use to set my sub's volume between 7 and 8, now it stays at 4.

Donnie27

 

[dderidex]

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1028105908&postcount=170

Look at the date?

I'm really not following how any of this interesting discussion applies to *my* situation, though.

I have an Audigy 2zs, I have Klipsch Promedia 5.1 Ultra speakers, the sub is producing sound that I am POSITIVE the sats should be producing instead.

What can be done about this?

Change speakers? Change soundcard? Any driver or registry tweaks that can be done?

 

[BBA]

The only answer would be change speakers to something that is designed to use full range bookshelf speakers and a dedicated sub.

Thats the biggest gripe I have about any speaker system that uses limited range sattellites. Criticism not limited to computer speakers either, were even talking bose and bose imitation cube speaker type crap. Lets make crap sound and try to fool you into thinking all that bass is coming from where it's supposed to be coming from.

 

[Donnie27]

I'm really not following how any of this interesting discussion applies to *my* situation, though.

It does though, it's the reason your sub's volume is low. He was right, you first need a the correct 1/8" mini Jack as the Link and PICs showed. The normal Stereo Jack doesn't work.

I have an Audigy 2zs, I have Klipsch Promedia 5.1 Ultra speakers, the sub is producing sound that I am POSITIVE the sats should be producing instead.

Creative should get off its @$$ and sell an adaper to correct this. This is what the Creative Cables look like the cards don't seem to care about other speaker systems. It's Proprietary to get folks to buy Creative Speakers. Unless the orange 3rd jack on your Center and Sub looks like this one on the PIC, you're not getting correct Speaker Output.

Logitech also has a cheap set of 6.1 that uses this Jack, the 620's. After you get the Jacks straight, the Bass Redirection must be enabled and the slider set to between 100 to 130. Bass will be low so turn up your sub.

What can be done about this?

Change speakers? Change soundcard? Any driver or registry tweaks that can be done?

If there are tweaks or a Fix, I missed it! The X-Fi is the fix for me. It has increased the Sub's Volume by 15db for games and 12db for music along with what I said about the Smal and Large speaker settings.

Donnie27

 

[dderidex]

It does though, it's the reason your sub's volume is low. He was right, you first need a the correct 1/8" mini Jack as the Link and PICs showed. The normal Stereo Jack doesn't work.

I see.

So, what you are saying, is that the "center/sub" jack actually has 4 poles, and that with a standard stereo plug, the two of the three outputs it connects to are NOT the correct 'center' and 'sub' channels (specifically, the 'sub' connecting to the wrong one), is that right?

So, that I hear anything from the sub at all is entirely due to the Klipsch speaker's built-in crossover?

If that's true....ummmm....anybody sell cables with the correct connections? Designed for 4-pole on one end and 3-pole on the other seems like a rather odd combination....

 

[Mister X]

To use the dedicated Audigy sub output, you need a sub connection with this type of pin configuration:

If you use the standard Klipsch cable, which only has a stereo connector for the center/sub, it doesnt work very well.

Look at your picture once.....
Do you notice what channel gets "shorted out" when you insert a standard trs 1/8" plug into it?
Let me help you out with the answer:

Rear center huh?


Go back a few replies and see if you happen to notice that this is a 5.1 speaker system we are talking about here.

I would assume that since this is a 5.1 speaker package dderidex has his Audigy 2 set to 5.1 speaker mode which "shorts" nothing to nothing when you insert a standard trs 1/8" plug in that jack.
Given that why do you think you need this "wonder plug" ?


Explanation of shorting nothing to nothing---------->
The muting transistor for the 7th channel is not forward biased so there is no signal there to "short" to ground when the soundcard is set to 5.1 mode

Experiment to validate this explanation------>
Set you DMM on AC mV, play some music on your PC and measure the voltage across the rear center RCA plug in 5.1 mode.
Further experiment to validate this explanation---->
Set your DMM to AC mA play some music on your PC and measure the current across the rear center RCA plug in 5.1 mode.

Logic test----->
If there is no voltage and no current flowing across the rear center RCA plug while the sound card is in 5.1 mode isn't the 1/8" trss (4 conductor) plug functionaly identical to a standard trs 1/8" plug?





Back on topic here:

I got a real simple test that will demonstrate the whole bass redirection thing for you dderidex.

Unplug the center subwoofer cable from the sound card.....
Plop in a audio CD, mash the play button on your favorite software and notice if the subwoofer still produces any sound.
Now plop in a DVD and notice if there is a difference.

 

[dderidex]

Unplug the center subwoofer cable from the sound card.....
Plop in a audio CD, mash the play button on your favorite software and notice if the subwoofer still produces any sound.
Now plop in a DVD and notice if there is a difference.

From prior experience - and this is with 'bass redirection' turned OFF, mind you - with the 'center/sub' unplugged, the sub still definitely generates sound from music files.

Haven't checked w/ DVDs, yet. Wonder if the Klipsch internal crossover turns itself off when it detects a signal coming down the 'sub' channel and just uses that or not....

 

[Donnie27]

From prior experience - and this is with 'bass redirection' turned OFF, mind you - with the 'center/sub' unplugged, the sub still definitely generates sound from music files.

Haven't checked w/ DVDs, yet. Wonder if the Klipsch internal crossover turns itself off when it detects a signal coming down the 'sub' channel and just uses that or not....

Then if it does, it's matrixed bass. Two channel music files doesn't carry a discrete LFE Channel track. The bass is "Redirected" from the Fronts to the Sub.

Donnie27