• Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
    Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.

Do I NEED a UPS?

honestly in my 12 years of owning different computers, I have never had a UPS. But I do have surge protectors.

What's the difference?
 
mekkanic said:
honestly in my 12 years of owning different computers, I have never had a UPS. But I do have surge protectors.

What's the difference?
Click to expand...

I think I can answer this one now...I'll give it a shot at least. A surge protector protects your equipment from just that, surges. Not only does a UPS provide power for your system when the power goes out, but it also "softens" electrical spikes and dips therefore adding life to your components. The surge protector will stop that huge spike wave that is accustomed to when the power is turned back on, but does not account for the brownouts and misc. electrical noise in the power lines during operation. Basically, a surge protector is better then nothing (what I currently use) but a UPS will protect your equipment that much more.

If I'm wrong please enlighten me. :)
 
Most people here seem to be looking only at the dollar value of their hardware. I can't put a figure on how much my DATA is worth to me, plus the hassle saved of not reinstalling an OS with lots of apps and customizations. All you need to do is lose power for that magic "worst interval" of around 0.75s and any writes are corrupted, the filesystem may be in an unknown state (NTFS is not journalling for example) and things could be a real mess depending on what you were doing. Even 30s of battery life to finish writing and shut down is of great value.

Of course a significant fraction of people here seem to reinstall everything a couple of times per year, so maybe they have no data of any real value to them on these PCs....

(Yes, I have backups. No, I don't keep all my data online. That's not the point. Even if you had everything on tape or other removable media, it's still a hassle.)
 
TheEnglishJob said:
That's probably because my initial question was whether I need a UPS to protect my hardware.
Click to expand...

It's not a bad idea. A UPS will maks sure that you have a constant 120v supply voltage. If you live in an area with alot of brownouts which is where the power company bumps the voltage down a bit to save money it's a very good idea. Plus in the event of an outage you will have time to properly shutdown your pc. A surge protector will protect you from a power surge but thats about it.
 
mekkanic said:
honestly in my 12 years of owning different computers, I have never had a UPS. But I do have surge protectors.

What's the difference?
Click to expand...

A UPS is a Uninterruptible Power Supply.

I work at a store called Batteries Plus and we service UPS's regularly. I also repair the broken ones meant to be thrown away and keep them for myself. I would say I have 12 or so UPS's in my house with fresh batteries in them.

They are designed to provides emergency power to the connected equipment by supplying power from a separate source when utility power is not available.

So when your power goes out in your home, the UPS will keep your Computer up and running for about 15 minutes to 1 hour (depending on the model).
Just enough time to save your data and properly shut it down.

Most UPS's have built in surge protectors in them. A Surge Protector is designed to protect electrical devices from voltage spikes. It regulates the voltage supplied to an electric device by either blocking or by shorting to ground voltages above a safe threshold.

I would always recommend running a PC on a surge protector.

I lost my old PSU by not running it on one. But now I have everything on UPS systems.
 
A good APC UPS (or other major brand) with Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) will also help to make your system more stable, may increase your OC'es & can increase your system's lifespan. AVR will, without going to batteries, raise a low voltage, lower a high voltage & generally help to "clean up" your system's VAC input.

APC actually "insures" equipment it is protecting against damage from VAC input damage, spikes, lightening, etc.

I have used APC UPS's "forever" & have never lost a piece of hardware from a VAC problem.

For maximum advantage go with a "Smart BackUps" UPS with a "True Sine Wave" output, for d@mn good overall improvement/protection any properly rated APC UPS with AVR will be fine.

If you want to save some real money, get a "Refurbed" unit with warranty & new batteries.

Also do not forget to isolate you systems from spikes & lightening that can come through your NIC & phone modem.

Highly Recommended,
Dave :)
 
davidhammock200 said:
For maximum advantage go with a "Smart BackUps" UPS with a "True Sine Wave" output, for d@mn good overall improvement/protection any properly rated APC UPS with AVR will be fine.

If you want to save some real money, get a "Refurbed" unit with warranty & new batteries.

Dave :)
Click to expand...

What does the "Smart BackUps" line add that the regular APC UPS units don't have? Also, do you have have a place you usually buy from?

Thanks,
- JustPyro
 
Would this be adequate for my build?

http://buy.apc.com/commerce/storefr...product_id=BE750G&tsk=h546w&promotionID=13129

edit: or do I need something like this:

http://www.apc.com/resource/include...00BLK&ISOCountryCode=us&segmentID=1&tsk=h546w


Build:

-CPU (AMD Phenom II X3 720 2.8GHz) $150.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103649
With $5.00 Promo Code
EMCLPLP24
-Motherboard (GIGABYTE GA-MA770-UD3 AM2+/AM2) $75.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128376
-Memory 2x (G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 800) $80.00 (8 GB Total)
$5 off w/ promo code EMCLNNP29
-Hard Drive (Western Digital Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB 7200 RPM 32MB) $80.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136319
-DVD/CD (BurnerLG Black 22X DVD R/RW) $26.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136153
-Graphics Card (XFX HD-487A-ZDFC Radeon HD 4870 1GB 256-bit) ~$150.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150352
-Fan (Antec Tri-Cool 120mm Case Fan) $10.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835209005
-Heatsink & Fan (XIGMATEK HDT-RS1283 Red Scorpion) $33.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233012
-Power Supply (CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W) $100.00 *Purchased ($75 w/MRI)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139005
-OS (Vista Home 64bit) $100.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116488
-Case (Antec Three Hundred) $60.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042&Tpk=antec 300
-Monitor 20" or so (Going to pick up one at local store as recommended) ~$150.00-200.00
 
The first is rated at 450W's, the second at 540W''s.

Your system will never draw 450 watts from the wall outlet, so it is more than enough.
 
davidhammock200 said:
Also do not forget to isolate you systems from spikes & lightening that can come through your NIC & phone modem.
Click to expand...

QFT! I had a lightning strike hit our cable line a few years ago and fry our old cable modem, linksys router (use a pfsense box now), 2 ports on the 16 port switch I had at the time, my TV, and a set top box in another room. TWC replaced the modem and set top box and had to have a tech switch us to another port on the box or whatever they have on the telephone pole because one of those got fried too. That was a fun 4 days without internets.

Now I have an APC backups ES 650 va protecting nothing but the cables power and COAX line, then I have a LAN surge protecter grounded to my rack right before it connects to my router. Every single device in my room save my alarm clock and printers are powered by one of my 2 rack mount UPSes, and I need to get LAN surge protecters on those soon.

Can you tell I'm paranoid about surges yet?

The whole reason I got a UPS in the first place was because the wiring in this house sucks. Anytime a high load device comes on (AC, Dryer, Etc.) the voltage sags and I would get blue screens on my old and long gone socket A system.
 
BababooeyHTJ said:
It's not a bad idea. A UPS will maks sure that you have a constant 120v supply voltage. If you live in an area with alot of brownouts which is where the power company bumps the voltage down a bit to save money it's a very good idea. Plus in the event of an outage you will have time to properly shutdown your pc. A surge protector will protect you from a power surge but thats about it.
Click to expand...

That's not a brown out, and power companies certainly don't initiate brown outs to try and save money. If they did intentionally initiate them then they would have waaaay too many lawsuits on their hands because of all the damage to equipment (not just solid state devices like computers, but all sorts of equipment like motors, etc.) that a brown out can cause.

What happens is that the voltage regulating equipment from the source of the power ends up going tits up and the voltage drops slowly (slowly as in a few hundred msec to a few seconds) and the protection schemes in the power grid don't see it because it's too slow to warrant a trip of a breaker. Once the relays and other protection devices in the electrical grid finally see the problem then they trip out the necessary breakers. But in that time period as the voltage goes down, load essentially stays the same, and in order to keep on supplying that load the current ends up going up sharply. It's the current spike that damages everything. I've seen what a brown out can do to a piece of machinery (most specifically an amplidyne for a turbine generator set...it's part of the voltage regulating equipment for older generators) and it's definitely not pretty. Unless you like a lot of sparks and fire...then I suppose you might think it's pretty. lol
 
largefarrva said:
That's not a brown out, and power companies certainly don't initiate brown outs to try and save money. If they did intentionally initiate them then they would have waaaay too many lawsuits on their hands because of all the damage to equipment (not just solid state devices like computers, but all sorts of equipment like motors, etc.) that a brown out can cause.

What happens is that the voltage regulating equipment from the source of the power ends up going tits up and the voltage drops slowly (slowly as in a few hundred msec to a few seconds) and the protection schemes in the power grid don't see it because it's too slow to warrant a trip of a breaker. Once the relays and other protection devices in the electrical grid finally see the problem then they trip out the necessary breakers. But in that time period as the voltage goes down, load essentially stays the same, and in order to keep on supplying that load the current ends up going up sharply. It's the current spike that damages everything. I've seen what a brown out can do to a piece of machinery (most specifically an amplidyne for a turbine generator set...it's part of the voltage regulating equipment for older generators) and it's definitely not pretty. Unless you like a lot of sparks and fire...then I suppose you might think it's pretty. lol
Click to expand...

Sparks and fire are pretty till you realize that the shit just hit the fan.
 
largefarrva said:
That's not a brown out, and power companies certainly don't initiate brown outs to try and save money. If they did intentionally initiate them then they would have waaaay too many lawsuits on their hands because of all the damage to equipment (not just solid state devices like computers, but all sorts of equipment like motors, etc.) that a brown out can cause.
Click to expand...

Voltage reductions can be accidental or intentional action from the service operator. Standard reductions of 3% and 5% for purposes of conservation are common numbers.

http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/siteShared/voltage_reduction.asp?sid=bi

http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/ircp/VR_Testing.asp

Most UPS units probably wouldn't trip on voltages within 5%. Some with AVR (voltage boost/cut without going to batteries) may or may not. I haven't observed my UPS during one of these IESO tests to see what it did. I wasn't emailed a power event from apcupsd, however.
 
Surly73 said:
Voltage reductions can be accidental or intentional action from the service operator. Standard reductions of 3% and 5% for purposes of conservation are common numbers.

http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/siteShared/voltage_reduction.asp?sid=bi

http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/ircp/VR_Testing.asp

Most UPS units probably wouldn't trip on voltages within 5%. Some with AVR (voltage boost/cut without going to batteries) may or may not. I haven't observed my UPS during one of these IESO tests to see what it did. I wasn't emailed a power event from apcupsd, however.
Click to expand...


Utilities might do this as your articles linked say, but a 3-5% drop in voltage on a line certainly is not considered a brown out. Brown outs are much more severe and actually aren't seen all that much. I was just explaining what a brown out is, and trying to give a simple example of what one can do. Think of a brown out as a power outage where all the power goes out...but at a much slower rate than a simple black out where it's instantaneous (ie opening a breaker or turning off your light switch).
 
Need, prolly not. I won't ever run without one again. I have to much $$ invested in my systems.
 
WesM63 said:
Need, prolly yes. I won't ever run without one again. I have to much $$ invested in my systems.
Click to expand...

Fixt.

You can also think of it this way. Your system can cost 1000+ dollars. A good UPS is somewhere from 200-600 depending if you get one with true sine output. What's cheaper to replace?
 
soulesschild said:
Fixt.

You can also think of it this way. Your system can cost 1000+ dollars. A good UPS is somewhere from 200-600 depending if you get one with true sine output. What's cheaper to replace?
Click to expand...

No one thinks they need a UPS till that voltage sag/spike fries thier computer. I got my primary UPS for $20 used (APC Smart UPS 2200va with network monitoring) and I spent $75 on the 1100VA. They both are gonna need new batteries inside of a year or so, but they protect a good $2500 of gear. Even if I had to buy those UPSes new all over again they would still cost less than having to re-buy all of that equipment. Also the price of some of that equip. is low balled because some of it was second hand. To get all of it back at full retail would average $3k+. I also still have an APC surge protector between my main pc and UPS.
 
OmegaAvenger said:
I also still have an APC surge protector between my main pc and UPS.
Click to expand...

I actually read on the APC website that you should not do this because it interferes with UPS. The UPS has a built in surge protector and you don't need to add an extra one.
 
TheEnglishJob said:
I actually read on the APC website that you should not do this because it interferes with UPS. The UPS has a built in surge protector and you don't need to add an extra one.
Click to expand...

Well it was either that or I run out of outlets and/or run multiple extension cords which I don't wanna do. I also dont wanna buy any of thier special PDUs because I don't see how they are any better than a power strip. It hasn't caused a problem yet and I've been using it this way for almost a year. Its survived over voltage, under voltage and power failures during that time.
 
I think having your house wiring capable of handling your equipment with little voltage drop is probably ideal. If you have that good, you should only really need a good surge protector right? As long as your electrical company isn't sending you dirty power with improper voltages.
 
OmegaAvenger said:
Well it was either that or I run out of outlets and/or run multiple extension cords which I don't wanna do. I also dont wanna buy any of thier special PDUs because I don't see how they are any better than a power strip. It hasn't caused a problem yet and I've been using it this way for almost a year. Its survived over voltage, under voltage and power failures during that time.
Click to expand...
Do NOT put an el'cheap'o power strip between the UPS & the power source (wall plug), it voids your UPS warranty, voids the insurance provided by the UPS company, and WILL interfere with operation of a "good" UPS during a sever power situation!

Follow the directions, I know that you don't know why, so that is all the more reason to follow the directions!

If you don't & you have a "real problem", you will be real:(
 
davidhammock200 said:
Do NOT put an el'cheap'o power strip between the UPS & the power source (wall plug), it voids your UPS warranty, voids the insurance provided by the UPS company, and WILL interfere with operation of a "good" UPS during a sever power situation!

Follow the directions, I know that you don't know why, so that is all the more reason to follow the directions!

If you don't & you have a "real problem", you will be real:(
Click to expand...

its not an el cheapo its an APC brand. I'm also using some dell rack mount PDUs. I'd hardly call dell and APC stuff el cheapo.

rekd0514 said:
I think having your house wiring capable of handling your equipment with little voltage drop is probably ideal. If you have that good, you should only really need a good surge protector right? As long as your electrical company isn't sending you dirty power with improper voltages.
Click to expand...

Mother nature doesn't care if your power company regulates their power to 1/1000th of a volt. Lightning can strike and fuck it all up. plus a power strip only protects against surges and cuts power to the device and doesn't allow a graceful shutdown (for low VA units) or short term continued operation (higher VA units).

Whats your DATA worth? cerainly more than $40 i'm sure.
 
OmegaAvenger said:
its not an el cheapo its an APC brand. I'm also using some dell rack mount PDUs. I'd hardly call dell and APC stuff el cheapo.
Click to expand...
You didn't say that before & 99% of people use the cheapest power strips they can find!

Those are without a doubt very good power strips, but it is still recommended not to use them, but...:D

You are not using any power strips between the UPS's "regulated, battery back-up" outputs and anything they are powering, are you?

I hope not, as in this case, the higher the quality the bigger the problem they WILL cause.
 
davidhammock200 said:
You didn't say that before & 99% of people use the cheapest power strips they can find!

Those are without a doubt very good power strips, but it is still recommended not to use them, but...:D
Click to expand...

Actually I did. :D I'm sure I could do better, but I work with whats available and within my budget. I'd certainly like to have some APC pdus (especially the network managed ones)

OmegaAvenger said:
No one thinks they need a UPS till that voltage sag/spike fries thier computer. I got my primary UPS for $20 used (APC Smart UPS 2200va with network monitoring) and I spent $75 on the 1100VA. They both are gonna need new batteries inside of a year or so, but they protect a good $2500 of gear. Even if I had to buy those UPSes new all over again they would still cost less than having to re-buy all of that equipment. Also the price of some of that equip. is low balled because some of it was second hand. To get all of it back at full retail would average $3k+. I also still have an APC surge protector between my main pc and UPS.
Click to expand...
 
I also still have an APC surge protector between my main pc and UPS.
Click to expand...
Since you are using a "Smart BackUp" that generates a "True Sine Wave" this is not a problem, but if you were using a cheaper model BackUp that generates a "stepped" (modified sine wave), when on batteries, your APC Surge protector might attempt to "clamp" what it see as "dirty power spikes" when the BackUp was on batteries, this would strain the UPS & produce a low-voltage condition for the PC.
 
davidhammock200 said:
Since you are using a "Smart BackUp" that generates a "True Sine Wave" this is not a problem, but if you were using a cheaper model BackUp that generates a "stepped" (modified sine wave), when on batteries, your APC Surge protector might attempt to "clamp" what it see as "dirty power spikes" when the BackUp was on batteries.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Thats why my Back UPS 650 is powering nothing but my cable modem (which has its own battery as well since its the VOIP model). I use it for the Coax protection.
 
You are in good shape! If everyone would take "power" as seriously as you, this would be a very dull forum, which in this case would be a GOOD thing.

Best Wishes,
Dave:)
 
rekd0514 said:
I think having your house wiring capable of handling your equipment with little voltage drop is probably ideal. If you have that good, you should only really need a good surge protector right? As long as your electrical company isn't sending you dirty power with improper voltages.
Click to expand...

No. You'd still want one. What if the power cut out and you were writing stuff to disk? Whoops there goes your RAID setup...etc...etc
 
rekd0514 said:
I think having your house wiring capable of handling your equipment with little voltage drop is probably ideal. If you have that good, you should only really need a good surge protector right? As long as your electrical company isn't sending you dirty power with improper voltages.
Click to expand...
Very Wrong, you can easily learn vicariously from reading or the [H] way, by expensive & painful experience, the choice is yours.

Always Build with the Best,
Dave
 
OmegaAvenger said:
Mother nature doesn't care if your power company regulates their power to 1/1000th of a volt. Lightning can strike and fuck it all up. plus a power strip only protects against surges and cuts power to the device and doesn't allow a graceful shutdown (for low VA units) or short term continued operation (higher VA units).

Whats your DATA worth? cerainly more than $40 i'm sure.
Click to expand...

Not to mention the drunken idiot who runs his car into the pole with your transformer on top of it - glitching, arcing, possibly connecting the 13kV input directly to the outputs....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top