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dithering on the 2405fpw

D

Davediego

n00b
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
7
I just bought a 2405fpw, and noticed some issues with dithering within minutes of setting it up. I know that Samsung quotes 16.7million colors on the info page for the panel, is this just a lie?

This clip in particluar has a lot of dithering on the 2405fpw, and none at all on my CRT
http://download.microsoft.com/downl...c-413f-9ee5-4d8d65105253/Discoverers_1080.exe

check out 2:15, lots of dithering on the corona of the eclipse, here's a pic with my camera
IMG_1109%20(Large).jpg


I didn't notice any talk of dithering in the big thread, do I have a defective panel somehow? Someone else with this display please let me know, If the 2405fpw is really this poor at color reproduction and it has to dither, I'm going to have to return it :(
 
Is it only with that particular video? Have you tried looking at other images that have a color gradiant? It might just be the particular quality of the video, I recommend looking at high rez images. If the source sucks, then there is no way that a monitor can correct it.
 
Dell 2405fpw uses a perfectly fine 8-bit panel. It’s a Samsung PVA:
http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/Monitors_n_Industrial/LTM240M1/LTM240M1.htm

I guess it's the quality of the video and as said a monitor cannot correct that.

You might want to try and adjust the monitor. Wrong contrast settings can reduce the dynamics a lot.

If you have an older monitor which shows the corona of the eclipse as a gradient it might as well be a problem whit that monitor.
I don't conclude that it's the real issue but it could be, especially if it’s an analogue monitor. Colours can fade and will not be distinguished the same way.
If that’s how matters stand it naturally means that it’s a problem with the video and not your new monitor but it’s hard to tell.
 
He said that the dithering doesn't show up on the CRT. How can it be the quality of the source when the problem shows up with the LCD and not the CRT? :rolleyes:
 
Greenwit said:
He said that the dithering doesn't show up on the CRT. How can it be the quality of the source when the problem shows up with the LCD and not the CRT? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


My guess would be because the resolution is so much higher on the 2405.
 
i'm pretty sure its that video. i noticed it too when i watched it with mine.
 
Its not just that video, I've noticed it in plenty of other videos and in games as well. And yes, I have my deskstop set to 32bit color. The one thing I haven't tried yet is another video card, but I'm using a 6600GT and I don't see why that should have any problems doing 1920x1200 @ 32bit color.

And guys, the IMAX clips have incredible quality if you play them on a CRT. Its the 2405fpw's quality that I'm questioning. I will post up some more dithering pics later, but I have to get in to work right now.
 
Greenwit said:
He said that the dithering doesn't show up on the CRT. How can it be the quality of the source when the problem shows up with the LCD and not the CRT? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Was that an innuendo or was it simply a question? I find those eyes very condescending.

But never mind. You got the message from two persons now.

Davediego: Yes but the resolution of the 24" Dell is higher than the resolution on most CRT monitors.
What resolution do you use on your CRT?

An interpolation will have to make up for the lower resolution of the IMAX clips and that could probably be the reason.
Dithering is used when compressing images and the other way around as well so it doesn't necessarily have to be a problem with your new monitor.
 
Yeesh.. okay. :rolleyes:

So we're supposed to make high accuracy judgement of color and gradient reproduction on a screen based on COMPRESSED VIDEO? Have we lost our minds, people? :)

How about somebody post some non-lossy pictures of gradients in PNG format and we can bench quality using those instead.
 
Greenwit said:
He said that the dithering doesn't show up on the CRT. How can it be the quality of the source when the problem shows up with the LCD and not the CRT? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Let's not turn this into another useless LCD vs. CRT thread, shall we? kthxbye.

About the video: almost every LCD has some sort of dithering problem. You can try and lower the brightness, usually that helps a lot. Installing the newest drivers for your video card and optimizing the color correction for your display can also help. If it's very noticeable, then maybe you're more sensitive to it than others, or you could have a defective panel (but I doubt this). It's up to you to decide if you can live with it. :)
 
A screencap from the movie here, and i have added a gradiant at the bottom myself.

if the op still have dithering in the added gradient your monitor is faulty, i see only a tiny bit of banding on my 2405

you guys with crt's can also see the dithering in the screencap, i hope ;)

 
mistar said:
Davediego: Yes but the resolution of the 24" Dell is higher than the resolution on most CRT monitors.
What resolution do you use on your CRT?

An interpolation will have to make up for the lower resolution of the IMAX clips and that could probably be the reason.
Dithering is used when compressing images and the other way around as well so it doesn't necessarily have to be a problem with your new monitor.
Click to expand...


On my CRT I use 1280x1024 as my desktop resolution. There is also a 720p version of the same video clip, so its 1280x720 resolution is just fine for the CRT. I also played the 720p clip on the 2405fpw and still experienced banding. I am quite sure this is not an interpolation problem.

AGAIN I noticed dithering while gaming as well, its not just in video. I'll still post some pics of that later.
 
I just downloaded the movie in question and it doesnt have any banding whatsoever on my 21" Sony CRT regardless of what resolution I change to (6800 GT video) I also cant see any on Spank's screenshots above.
 
It's most likly the brightness of the screen. I'm guessing that your CRT isn't as bright so the banding doesn't show.

What kind of proc. do you need to play it smoothly? I've got a A46 3200+, 1.5GB ram and an x800 xt pe, but I get a lot of chop.

Edit: I got it working smoothly after installing the directx acceleration hotfix.
 
Cabezone said:
It's most likly the brightness of the screen. I'm guessing that your CRT isn't as bright so the banding doesn't show.

What kind of proc. do you need to play it smoothly? I've got a A46 3200+, 1.5GB ram and an x800 xt pe, but I get a lot of chop.
Click to expand...


Hrm all the 1080p videos run flawless on my PC but I believe your specs should be plenty of power as well. im not real familuar with AMD setups but im sure someone else could help, look at the bottom of this page for system requirements: http://www.wmvhd.com/

As for the Brightness comment that actualy sounded plausible ,but I just tried cranking up the brightness in media player to the point the black levels turned light grey and although I do see an ever so slight banding effect its still not nearly as obvious as the original posters screenshot.

G520P_Overbrightr.jpg

Original resolution: http://zenblue.net/ded/G520P_Overbright.jpg
 
It's most likely how Davediego has his screen set up. The banding is definitely in the video.
 
mathesar said:
As for the Brightness comment that actualy sounded plausible ,but I just tried cranking up the brightness in media player to the point the black levels turned light grey and although I do see an ever so slight banding effect its still not nearly as obvious as the original posters screenshot.
Click to expand...

More likely it's poorly calibrated contrast/gamma. I can exaggerate banding by playing with the gamma and contrast through the video card drivers. Monitors need some adjustment to get everything looking just right, perhaps the 2405 needs it more then others. With everything at default on my L2335 I can see slight banding in Spark's screenshot (top part).

In Davediego's photo, it seems like the gamma/contrast are out of whack. The corona is much brighter further out in his photo compared to your photo.
 
I didn't have time to take shots in games like I planned, but I noticed that setting my desktop color to 16 or 32bit makes little difference in the amount of banding, which it certainly should. Here's two comparisson pics just of the windows display settings, 16bit and 32bit exhibit the exact same banding. Again this banding isnt present on a CRT.

IMG_1113.jpg

IMG_1114.jpg


I apologize for the contrast difference, its kind of hard to normalize that just hodling a my camera in my hands. However thats not what is important, what is is that the banding present in the 32bit setting is the same as the 16bit setting.
 
I still say it's the contrast like Igthorn just said and like I said in one f the first posts!

I can't see why you find a suggestion that it is the brightness more plausible. It's not any more plausible than suggesting that it's the gamma or contrast.
Contrast have a great effect on the dynamics.

I'm pretty sure that the dithering is in the video, you just don't see it if you adjust the monitor and you don't see it on your CRT for various reasons, d-sub and signal treatment included.

And that's why you still see it with 16 bit in Windows.
 
All the pics you see are using the DVI input, so I don't have adjustment for the contrast. Also the brightness in the lcd is turned down to 0. The brightness isn't going to change the values the individual pixels are set to, only the intensity of the backlight. So even I had brightness set "incorrectly" its not the source of the dithering.
 
Davediego said:
All the pics you see are using the DVI input, so I don't have adjustment for the contrast. Also the brightness in the lcd is turned down to 0. The brightness isn't going to change the values the individual pixels are set to, only the intensity of the backlight. So even I had brightness set "incorrectly" its not the source of the dithering.
Click to expand...

Look dude, the dithering is in the video, it's not your monitor. You have to play with the software contrast/gamma/brightness settings to get the 2405fpw set up correctly.
 
mistar said:
I still say it's the contrast like Igthorn just said and like I said in one f the first posts!

I can't see why you find a suggestion that it is the brightness more plausible. It's not any more plausible than suggesting that it's the gamma or contrast.
Contrast have a great effect on the dynamics.

I'm pretty sure that the dithering is in the video, you just don't see it if you adjust the monitor and you don't see it on your CRT for various reasons, d-sub and signal treatment included.

And that's why you still see it with 16 bit in Windows.
Click to expand...


I'm pretty sure the rest of us were wrapping contrast/brightness/gamma into one word by saying "brightness" or "contrast", not saying it was one or the other.
 
Cabezone: I didn't say that you didn't mention that - just to get it straightened out.

Everything I said in that post was a reply to Davediego and this comment:

"As for the Brightness comment that actualy sounded plausible"
 
Cabezone said:
Look dude, the dithering is in the video, it's not your monitor. You have to play with the software contrast/gamma/brightness settings to get the 2405fpw set up correctly.
Click to expand...


would you mind sharing your settings if you've been able to configure your 2405fpw to eliminate the banding?
 
Davediego said:
would you mind sharing your settings if you've been able to configure your 2405fpw to eliminate the banding?
Click to expand...

I'm at work right now, so it'll have to wait till I get back home. 6pm or so Pacific time.
 
Messing with the contrast on my monitor and media player didnt make the banding any more visible so basicly I cant see it on my CRT regardless of settings. However Im not saying theres a problem with the 2405FPW I think its just the way LCD's are in general, my 2001FP did the same thing , it was noticable when I had the CRT and LCD running side by side (clone mode). I'm interested to know why this occurs.

Im curious if any LCD users can see any banding in this test , I cant make out any banding *at all* on the CRT: http://www.inetmie.or.jp/~kawagita/java000/java31.htm , Also another here: http://www.stargazing.net/david/messier/testpatterns.html
 
mathesar said:
Messing with the contrast on my monitor and media player didnt make the banding any more visible so basicly I cant see it on my CRT regardless of settings. However Im not saying theres a problem with the 2405FPW I think its just the way LCD's are in general, my 2001FP did the same thing , it was noticable when I had the CRT and LCD running side by side (clone mode). I'm interested to know why this occurs.
Click to expand...


The screenshot you posted of your crt has banding in it.
 
Davediego said:
would you mind sharing your settings if you've been able to configure your 2405fpw to eliminate the banding?
Click to expand...


Monitor control panel:

brightness=0
Red=36
Green=33
Blue=32

ATI control panel

Brightness= -20

The banding isn't gone completely, but it's very faint.

008.jpg
 
Cabezone said:
The screenshot you posted of your crt has banding in it.
Click to expand...

Could it be because you're looking at it on an LCD monitor perhaps?, Im pretty sure anyone with a CRT will not see banding in my pics. I could be wrong.
 
mathesar said:
Could it be because you're looking at it on an LCD monitor perhaps?, Im pretty sure anyone with a CRT will not see the banding in my pics. I could be wrong.
Click to expand...

You are correct, sir. I DL'd the video (and it didn't DL quick for such a small file, LOL) and there is zero banding on my NEC FE2111sb. LCDs are known for banding. This is no surprise....I thought everyone knew that LCDs banded gradients.
 
mathesar said:
Could it be because you're looking at it on an LCD monitor perhaps?, Im pretty sure anyone with a CRT will not see banding in my pics. I could be wrong.
Click to expand...

This pic right here has banding on my CRT:



G520P_Overbrightr.jpg
 
Davediego said:
I didn't have time to take shots in games like I planned, but I noticed that setting my desktop color to 16 or 32bit makes little difference in the amount of banding, which it certainly should. Here's two comparisson pics just of the windows display settings, 16bit and 32bit exhibit the exact same banding. Again this banding isnt present on a CRT.


I apologize for the contrast difference, its kind of hard to normalize that just hodling a my camera in my hands. However thats not what is important, what is is that the banding present in the 32bit setting is the same as the 16bit setting.
Click to expand...

Errr....those are not supposed to change.
 
Screenshot doesn't work for me.....if there are any progs yall know about let me know. In any case I see no banding.....I suppose if you blow up the screen big enough and jack up the contrast to max like Cabezone you may be able to find it. I don't see it all on my NEC. I don't know why LCD owners are trying to argue their monitors don't band. All LCDs band. Go research in the AVS forum and other links. Sheesh, this is not even an issue folks. You all didn't really think your monitors were perfect did you?
 
Greenwit said:
Screenshot doesn't work for me.....if there are any progs yall know about let me know. In any case I see no banding.....I suppose if you blow up the screen big enough and jack up the contrast to max like Cabezone you may be able to find it. I don't see it all on my NEC. I don't know why LCD owners are trying to argue their monitors don't band. All LCDs band. Go research in the AVS forum and other links. Sheesh, this is not even an issue folks. You all didn't really think your monitors were perfect did you?
Click to expand...

I made the video overbright in the screenshot above on purpose in an attempt to bring out banding , I do see some large bands outside of the glow effect (where its suppose to be black) but I dont think this is considered banding being the 'bands' are so far apart (about 3 differant shades of grey) But the glow effect itself has no banding.
 
Greenwit said:
Screenshot doesn't work for me.....if there are any progs yall know about let me know. In any case I see no banding.....I suppose if you blow up the screen big enough and jack up the contrast to max like Cabezone you may be able to find it. I don't see it all on my NEC. I don't know why LCD owners are trying to argue their monitors don't band. All LCDs band. Go research in the AVS forum and other links. Sheesh, this is not even an issue folks. You all didn't really think your monitors were perfect did you?
Click to expand...

Sigh...we know they band to some degree. I was trying to help the guy reduce it. The banding is in the video, you have to properly adjust the brightness and such to keep it to a minimum on LCD's in videos.
 
Like I said before, those old imax image clips really vary in quality. Just read some reviews for the imax 720p/1080p HD-WMV DVDs you can purchase on Amazon from people who have uber high end home theater systems. I see compression artifacts in some of them that are worse than my double compressed DVDshrink dvds.... I use my 2405 to display movies about 30% of my free time and have never noticed an overabundance of banding with my configuration settings. I only have my V3 phone cam atm so I can't really take a good picture but I see no banding on this page at all http://www.inetmie.or.jp/~kawagita/java000/java31.htm color reproduction on this monitor is extremely nice compared to most LCDs I have seen.
 
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