Developing on PS3 is Purposely Hard, Sony Says

Terry Olaes

Terry Olaes

I Used to be the [H] News Guy
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Sony’s PlayStation 3 is renown among developers as being difficult to program for, according to CNET. When the CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment, Kaz Hirai, was asked about this, you might think that he’d downplay the challenges, especially with the pain that Sony is going through right now. Follow the jump to see what he said.

In one of the most shocking and bizarre comments ever made by a company chief, Hirai, the brains behind the entire PlayStation empire, explained to the Official PlayStation Magazine in its February issue that Sony didn't want to make it easy on developers.
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From how he says it, it sounds like a good move. I mean, look at the PS3 exclusives...most of them outshine everything else on the console (and on all other consoles), and that has been the work of taking time and learning the architecture.
 
From a quality standpoint, I guess this would push the envelop, BUT from a marketing standpoint, this is asinine.

Look at Nintendo then look at Sony. Which is easier to program for? Which is cheaper? Which is not cutting edge? Which is making more money?

Fun does not equate incredible looking graphics. You can have the best engine in the world that simulates real life, but to a gamer... is it fun?
 
Guitarrasdeamor said:
From how he says it, it sounds like a good move. I mean, look at the PS3 exclusives...most of them outshine everything else on the console (and on all other consoles), and that has been the work of taking time and learning the architecture.
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Yes I definitely agree on that especially Metal Gear Solid
 
Slade said:
From a quality standpoint, I guess this would push the envelop, BUT from a marketing standpoint, this is asinine.

Look at Nintendo then look at Sony. Which is easier to program for? Which is cheaper? Which is not cutting edge? Which is making more money?

Fun does not equate incredible looking graphics. You can have the best engine in the world that simulates real life, but to a gamer... is it fun?
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Two comments to that

1) Killzone 2

2) God of War 3

You are right though, graphics are not everything. However on a really good game they really make it stand out.
 
As a business strategy, it doesn't sound like that great of a concept. But, the exclusives from developers who take the time to learn the architecture sure do shine. Look at games like MSG4 (movie wannabe or not, it's quite breathtaking), Uncharted and KZ 2. I won't go as far as saying that they out-do all other competition, but they are fine examples of the PS3 hardware.
 
repost. we hvae already had a long news thread on this same subject. Cnet is just a month behind the curve.
 
I still dont understand why with all this "power" under the hood, I can't keep my PSN downloads going when watching a movie or playing a game.
 
What it sounds like he was saying to me is that these difficulties quoted below are a result of the design decisions that make the cell so powerful.

"We had to play catch-up on the PS3 because of the memory constraints and how it renders; how it processes is just different. And it's harder on the PS3,"
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"So it's a kind of--I wouldn't say a double-edged sword--but it's hard to program for, and a lot of people see the negatives of it, but if you flip that around, it means the hardware has a lot more to offer."
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Instead of everyone starting with a full grasp on a system, they start with a lesser understanding on a more powerful system. As they develop software they learn to use the system more efficiently. The eventual result is far more power then the competitors. Essentially they made it "hard to program" because these changes allowed them to get more power overall, just a steeper learning curve.

He even refers to it as a double-edged sword, increased power vs increased difficulty. They can use the extra processing power as an advantage over Nintendo and MS, but their competitors have the advantage in the short run because development is more difficult for the Cell.
 
This was brought into light almost 2 months ago. I'm a Sony fanboy but I was queasy after reading this. I don't agree with this strategy. I have heard before though the comment about 'it's easier to make a game on the PS3/OpenGL, then adapting it to 360/DX, than the other way around". But maybe the strategy works. I don't see a lot of non-microsoft 360 exclusives anyways.

In the end though, I think what Sony is after is game developers being forced to build game engines that adapt to the PS3 as more of it's power is unlocked. What this will end up doing is in 5-6 years, towards the end of the PS3 life cycle, developers will have a very bug free, solid back end to program on. This might lead to better quality games in terms of graphics, AI, physics etc... compared to a easy to program for PC/360 where you can just throw a mess of code together and go.
 
koolaidkitten said:
I still dont understand why with all this "power" under the hood, I can't keep my PSN downloads going when watching a movie or playing a game.
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I can understand not continuing a download while playing a game (even though it's no real problem for my PC's wireless connection, even while online gaming) but halting all downloads while watching a DVD\BRD or listening to music doesn't make any sense at all to me either.

Must be another one of Sony's industry leading design decisions. They're full of 'em! Or it. :D
 
metal gear solid 4
mlb 09 the show
god of war 3
little big planet
gran turismo
kill zone 2
uncharted2
 
I know this story is a little long in the tooth, but I don't believe a word of this. I have a PS3 and it's great, but I just don't believe there is some 'magic' in the thing that will be unleashed sometime in the future. Saying they made it hard to develop for on purpose, is simply an excuse. It makes absolutely no sense, and it has bit Sony hard already. At the rate technology is moving, it won't matter how much 'untapped power' the PS3 has, because by then (4 or 5 years) the compitition will release a new sku that will be three times as powerful, and easier to develop for to boot. I still remember when I bought my PS2, Sony was saying that it will have "Toy Story" graphics, and that was as much a load of bull as anything they are saying now.

This is all based on graphics anyway, and if I really want to get the best graphics, it's found on my PC.
 
homernoy said:
I know this story is a little long in the tooth, but I don't believe a word of this. I have a PS3 and it's great, but I just don't believe there is some 'magic' in the thing that will be unleashed sometime in the future. Saying they made it hard to develop for on purpose, is simply an excuse. It makes absolutely no sense, and it has bit Sony hard already. At the rate technology is moving, it won't matter how much 'untapped power' the PS3 has, because by then (4 or 5 years) the compitition will release a new sku that will be three times as powerful, and easier to develop for to boot. I still remember when I bought my PS2, Sony was saying that it will have "Toy Story" graphics, and that was as much a load of bull as anything they are saying now.

This is all based on graphics anyway, and if I really want to get the best graphics, it's found on my PC.
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yup, my thoughts exactly.

I'm willing to bet that what they meant, was that since it's not a standard platform, they wont be able to easily port games over which will lead to new ways of programming for it and thus using more of the power it has.

the only problem with that is most developers already know existing hardware/platforms and, judging by some of the lousy ps3 ports already out, most developers don't care enough to essentially "remake" a game just to make it look nicer on the ps3. It might of been a good idea on sony's part, at least for exclusives, but by the time it really starts to shine the hardware will be old and tired and their competition will have a bigger and better system out. We shall see
 
Sega made the same mistake with the Saturn...
I thought that Sony learned this lesson already.
Your not going to drive your software community with complicated hardware without loosing developers.
Sounds like Sony was counting on this improving the quality of products on the PS3.
Instead its only lead to an anemic development community and negative perception.
Sony can step in like Sega did with the Saturn and help with additional technical support and dev tools.
I suspect this has already happened with some games.

The PS3 does have some great things going for it:
1. A handful of great PS3 exlusives,
2. One of the best bluray players on the market
3. Free online access
4. The most secure IP delivery system on the planet. (still isn't hacked)

What the PS3 needs:
1. A Price cut.
2. More AAA games.

Its not about what console is better, its about what console is best for you.
I wouldn't be happy with a 360 because I wouldn't use it for anything that I like.
I am very happy with my PS3 because of the particular games that I like to play on consoles and blu-ray.
 
123Lanoix said:
metal gear solid 4
mlb 09 the show
god of war 3
little big planet
gran turismo
kill zone 2
uncharted2
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Can we stop mentioning the four or five excellent games the PS3 has for it now? We know it only has a handful of them. Anyways:

That's precisely why I haven't seen much difference in the games offered on both consoles. Sure, some look better on the PS3, but the difference is minor
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I'm gonna have to argue with this. Almost ALWAYS, the games on 360 look better. I have seen tons of articles with the devs stating that the 360 version will look better, if only by a little. As for Kaz's weirdo statement - WTF!? I get what he's saying about accessing more power over time and stuff, but that's NOT what developers want. They want to be able to exploit power NOW to make their games shine NOW...not in 7 years! :rolleyes:
 
This is just another example of Sony's arrogance in the marketplace. They continue to loose marketshare and bleed money and it won't stop until the management is replaced with people who can take an honest look at their company, competitors and most importantly customers.

In this way Sony reminds me of General Motors. The similarities are mind boggling.
 
Making your shit hard to work with means you only get an awesome game ever so often while the rest of your lineup is polluted by Dynasty Warriors and Gundam games and other generic crap.
 
Vorazan said:
Making your shit hard to work with means you only get an awesome game ever so often while the rest of your lineup is polluted by Dynasty Warriors and Gundam games and other generic crap.
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"Generic" crap like this actually sells though... I wouldn't be so quick to judge a game type that you may not be so keen on.

On the other hand I agree with the rest of your statement.
 
Derfman said:
"Generic" crap like this actually sells though... I wouldn't be so quick to judge a game type that you may not be so keen on.

On the other hand I agree with the rest of your statement.
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Only in Japan.

Also, most cross-platform games are usually better on 360, and PS3 either has inferior visuals, or technical issues like lag, or god knows what else, only because the published didn't allow for enough time for PS3 team to really optimize their game. Who's fault is it?
 
stop!theradio said:
I'm gonna have to argue with this. Almost ALWAYS, the games on 360 look better. I have seen tons of articles with the devs stating that the 360 version will look better, if only by a little. As for Kaz's weirdo statement - WTF!? I get what he's saying about accessing more power over time and stuff, but that's NOT what developers want. They want to be able to exploit power NOW to make their games shine NOW...not in 7 years! :rolleyes:
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That is because, *gasp*, the 360 is the more powerful gaming system. It has a better GPU, and as we all know, games love GPU power, not CPU power. Sony seems to think that the Cell is going to give it an edge somehow, but in reality it won't. Then again, Sony also claimed that the PS3 is capable of 2 TFLOPs when in reality it is closer to 400 GFLOPs (somehow the ~200 gflops 7900GT became a 1.8 tflop beast when sony's marketing team got a hold of it :rolleyes:)
 
So instead of making a system that is simple to design for and allow the developers time to come up with new and compelling designs, concepts, play styles, etc you make one so ass backwards they spend all their time just trying to figure out how to get the same old shit just to work?

Ok sounds like a winner to me!
 
Quote:
In one of the most shocking and bizarre comments ever made by a company chief, Hirai, the brains behind the entire PlayStation empire, explained to the Official PlayStation Magazine in its February issue that Sony didn't want to make it easy on developers."

Hirai is the Nero of Sony,issuing one insane proclamation after another while his empire burns.
 
Anyone claiming that they understand what Sony did with the PS3 development is BS. The harder your development is, the longer it takes, the more money it will cost. Developers look at one thing when developing for a system. Cost. They don't look at graphics, they don't look at speed. They look at cost and what the return will be for them. The PS3 is practically a money sink for them which is why they look at bringing out games for the Xbox 360 first.
 
So let me get this straight. I pay $600 for a video game console but have to wait several years to get the most out of it because Sony purposely made it difficult to program for? How does that make any sense? Most Sony fan boys point to MGS, Uncharted etc etc as examples of what difficult programming can accomplish.... so what they're saying is that these games wouldn't be possible if the PS3 dev tools were better? So ridiculous! IMO the PS3 is difficult to program for because the design was changed at the last minute and the software engineers were never in sink with the hardware engineers throughout R&D. People need to stop making excuses for obvious mistakes that were made by Sony. If the console is difficult to develop on then priority number one should be to alleviate the problem by creating better dev kits not trying to rationalize the problem with PR gibberish.
 
Why can't a system be easy for the developers to program for and powerful?

I don't get why it has to be mutually exclusive.
 
koolaidkitten said:
I still dont understand why with all this "power" under the hood, I can't keep my PSN downloads going when watching a movie or playing a game.
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psn downloads continue while playing a game. if the game is online enabled then it will pause them while youre online.
 
Vorazan said:
Only in Japan.
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Japan's market is a viable one at that, so games that do sell well there are still something developers will and should focus on. And there are those of us in the USA that play these types of games as well. I honestly play games from a variety of genres.

If they sell well in Japan and decently in the USA specially in these hard economic times, then there is obviously good reason to keep making this games.

Vorazan said:
Who's fault is it?
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It is Sony's fault. I have all 3 systems, the one that sees the least use is the Wii (due to the fact that there really isn't much content for it that is enjoyable at my age).

Sony is a hardware company and like a hardware company they continue to make poor decisions when it comes to the software aspects (development kits) for their systems.

When the PS2 was big the Developers were the ones that made improvements to the Development kit and freely shared these improvements with the community of PS2 dev teams. This worked out great and that is why the PS2's game library continued to grow with better games.

That was then, the PS2 was the big dog on campus in both the USA and Japan. Now it's the opposite, the PS3's market penetration was horrible and though it has improved it is still pale in comparison to what it's predecessor has accomplished.

Due to this Developers are not developing their games as a primary or sometimes even a secondary (port) option for the PS3 and many early adopters have either switched their games to the competition or have turned exclusives into multi-ported games to see a return on their investment.

Sony had the right elements before but their strategy has always been a bit flawed. If they were first out of the gate this time they may have done much better but they still fail to offer a social and gaming online network that is comparable to the 360 and in this new age of online gaming it seems like that was their second big mistake.

I hope Sony can turn the PS3 around enough to avoid the stigma of the company's and system's horrible market penetration before the PS4 launches or it may have a even more rough start than the PS3 did (even if it is marginally improved on these two areas).
 
With so much power why cant I listen to my own mp3's through the PS3 while playing games like you can do with the XBOX360.

That reason alone is why I have 4 PS3 games and 30 360 games.
 
Budzman said:
With so much power why cant I listen to my own mp3's through the PS3 while playing games like you can do with the XBOX360.

That reason alone is why I have 4 PS3 games and 30 360 games.
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you can, the game developers are the ones who choose not to let you do this on the ps3. the feature is there and a few games use it.
 
I seriously don't see much of a future for the PS3. I mean, it's great hardware and all, but by today's standards, it's horribly overpriced and underutilized, add in the fact that they "purposely" make it hard to code for is ridiculous. It's like shooting yourself in the foot while trying to escape a burning building.
 
On a side note: Wasn't the PS2 hard to code for as well, relatively speaking? (though probably not as much so)
 
As a developer I call this totall bullshit. Sony can't do SDKs and tools worth shit. MSFT has an entire business unit (DevDiv) dedicated to nothing else and it shows on the 360. Seriously, who's goona mke the best dev tools? A company that does pretty much nothing but software or the company that makes TVs, phones, DVD players, and oh yeah, a game console. Sony doesn't know software. Sony is just making excuses for their weak tool set.
 
What were those 4 or 5 ps3 games everyone always uses as an example for how good ps3 is again? I know I should have the list memorized by now, but I just keep forgetting.
 
Honestly the list of good games for each console is unique to each user. I own a 360 and there are games that everyone says are amazing and yet I never got into them. Same with PS3. Killzone, Uncharted, MGS4 - all of them are generally well received, but i personally didn't like Uncharted nor MGS4 when I played them at friends place.

The only problem is, there's plenty of other games on 360 that appeal to me. When the choice is there, finding what you like is not a problem. But when it is not, your console [PS3] gets a stigma of having no good games.
 
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